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	<title>Comments on: English author uses word &#8220;apostle&#8221; for Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi</title>
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	<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>I advise everyone to read M. ali's comments on this topic in his book "Prophethood in Islam"

See 45/96.  I have written over and over again, this is the most comprehensive book in terms of the issues of the split.  M. ali gives a detailed explanation of this topic.  

&lt;a href="http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/1to100/1to100.djvu" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/1to100/1to100.djvu&lt;/a&gt;

"Anyone who thinks that there is a clear revelation in BA in which the founder was called the PM, that assertion is not correct."  

FACT OF THE WEEK.
--M. ali wrote more books than HMBMA. Even though M. ali had less sources of income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I advise everyone to read M. ali&#8217;s comments on this topic in his book &#8220;Prophethood in Islam&#8221;</p>
<p>See 45/96.  I have written over and over again, this is the most comprehensive book in terms of the issues of the split.  M. ali gives a detailed explanation of this topic.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/1to100/1to100.djvu" rel="nofollow">http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mali/prophethoodislam/1to100/1to100.djvu</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Anyone who thinks that there is a clear revelation in BA in which the founder was called the PM, that assertion is not correct.&#8221;  </p>
<p>FACT OF THE WEEK.<br />
&#8211;M. ali wrote more books than HMBMA. Even though M. ali had less sources of income.</p>
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		<title>By: Zahid Aziz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1987</link>
		<dc:creator>Zahid Aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1987</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Further on the question of when HMGA understood that he was Promised Messiah, the following is from &lt;em&gt;Barahin Ahmadiyya &lt;/em&gt;in 1884. Quoting the verse of the Quran prophesying the victory of Islam over other religions, he wrote:

"This verse, in the sense of physical and worldly rule, is a prophecy about Jesus. The triumph of Islam promised here will take place at the hands of Jesus, and when Jesus comes back into this world the religion of Islam will spread far and wide.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;However, what has been manifested to me is that I, this humble one, in terms of his lack of means, humility, reliance on God, sacrifice, signs and light, am an example of the first life of Jesus. The nature of this humble one and the nature of Jesus are very similar to each other, as if they were two pieces of the same jewel or two fruits of the same tree. There is so much unity between them that the spiritual eye of visions can see only a minute difference.

Moreover, there is also a resemblance in the outward sense, which is that Jesus was a follower and servant of the faith of a perfect and great prophet, Moses, and his &lt;em&gt;injil&lt;/em&gt; is an exposition of the Torah. This humble one too is one of the humblest servants of the great prophet who is the chief of messengers and the head of all messengers, Muhammad...&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As this humble one bears a complete resemblance to Jesus, therefore God has from the beginning included me in the prophecy about Jesus. That is to say, Jesus fulfils the above prophecy in the apparent and physcial sense, and I am the subject of this prophecy in the spiritual and intellectual sense, meaning that the spiritual triumph of Islam, which depends on incontrovertible evidences and strong arguments, is destined to come about through myself, whether in my life or after my death."&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(Barahin Ahmadiyya, Ruhani Khaza'in, v. 1, p. 593-594)

It is clear that even at this date he has &lt;em&gt;understood &lt;/em&gt;his claim of being the Messiah of Islam and of his close resemblance to Jesus. The only difference between this statement and his later claim of being Promised Messiah is that he discovered that Jesus will not return in person and cannot fulfil this prophecy, while HMGA will fulfil it in the sense mentioned here.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further on the question of when HMGA understood that he was Promised Messiah, the following is from <em>Barahin Ahmadiyya </em>in 1884. Quoting the verse of the Quran prophesying the victory of Islam over other religions, he wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;This verse, in the sense of physical and worldly rule, is a prophecy about Jesus. The triumph of Islam promised here will take place at the hands of Jesus, and when Jesus comes back into this world the religion of Islam will spread far and wide.</p>
<p>However, what has been manifested to me is that I, this humble one, in terms of his lack of means, humility, reliance on God, sacrifice, signs and light, am an example of the first life of Jesus. The nature of this humble one and the nature of Jesus are very similar to each other, as if they were two pieces of the same jewel or two fruits of the same tree. There is so much unity between them that the spiritual eye of visions can see only a minute difference.</p>
<p>Moreover, there is also a resemblance in the outward sense, which is that Jesus was a follower and servant of the faith of a perfect and great prophet, Moses, and his <em>injil</em> is an exposition of the Torah. This humble one too is one of the humblest servants of the great prophet who is the chief of messengers and the head of all messengers, Muhammad&#8230;</p>
<p>As this humble one bears a complete resemblance to Jesus, therefore God has from the beginning included me in the prophecy about Jesus. That is to say, Jesus fulfils the above prophecy in the apparent and physcial sense, and I am the subject of this prophecy in the spiritual and intellectual sense, meaning that the spiritual triumph of Islam, which depends on incontrovertible evidences and strong arguments, is destined to come about through myself, whether in my life or after my death.&#8221;</p>
<p>(Barahin Ahmadiyya, Ruhani Khaza&#8217;in, v. 1, p. 593-594)</p>
<p>It is clear that even at this date he has <em>understood </em>his claim of being the Messiah of Islam and of his close resemblance to Jesus. The only difference between this statement and his later claim of being Promised Messiah is that he discovered that Jesus will not return in person and cannot fulfil this prophecy, while HMGA will fulfil it in the sense mentioned here.</p>
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		<title>By: Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>For Tahir Ijaz:

What you present is common ahmadi(q) philosophy.  There is nothing new about this argument, HMBMA presented this argument in 1915.  You know that I have seen this argument.  In my opinion, this is a very weak argument.

Now, it must be investigated.  I started a blog on this website about a simliar problem that exists in ahmadi(q) thought.  The title of this blog was "An unfair parallel".  

You wrote, &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;"It took him twelve years to realize he was Messiah, despite God telling him so through downpours of revelation."

&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;1.  God told him in 1890/1891 that jesus was dead.  That clinched the idea that he himself was the messiah.  If this revelation didnt happen, HMGA would never have taken on this role of messiah.

FACT:  There was a "specific revelation" that caused HMGA to change his position.  This revelation was clear and concise.  This revelation was published.  He only wrote one sentence(in BA) pre-1891 that jesus would return from the sky.  

You wrote, "&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;A similar change occured in his conception of nabuwwat. In fact he compared this downpour of revelation regarding superiority to Jesus to his previous downpour regarding Messiah-hood."

&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;FACT:  There is no specific revalation that caused HMGA to change his position in terms of prophethood.  HMGA did not publish a specific revelation that caused this extreme change(alleged) that cut ahmadiyyat from the fabric of Islam.  HMGA wrote in 40 forty books to the effect that GOD told him that he was a muhaddas.  

In summary the nature of the changes are different.  In the first change, GOD never told HMGA that Jesus was dead(from 1880 to 1890).  GOD waited until late 1890 to reveal this to HMGA.  God ordained it in this manner.  This was GOD's wish.  This was GOD's decision.

In the second change(q), GOD tried his best to explain to HMGA that he was a prophet, did HMGA turn a deaf ear to god???  HMGA didnt listen???  HMGA was defiant to GOD??  That's hard to believe.  If there was even one revelation in 1900 to the effect that GOD told HMGA that you are a nabi.  That would change things, but that never happened.  I dont think that there is even one revelation in 1900 to 1902 in terms of prophethood.  Check Tazkirah!!!

M. ali didnt admit that a change occurred in 1901.  THERE WAS A CHANGE!!!!!  It's the nature of the change that is in discussion.

1. Was it a change in usage of the word nabi, in other words HMGA said it was OK to use the word nabi for him.  But the definition remained the same.  There was no change in definition.  The change was in usage only.  M. ali statements of 1904 strongly show that this was the change that M. ali observed.

2.  HMGA seperated from Islam.  He created a name for the community(ahmadiyaa muslims).  He could have opted to be defined as just muslim in the census, but he wanted to be counted as seperate.  He claimed prophethood.  The change wasnt in usage only, it was in usage and reality.  He didnt understand what god meant when god called him prophet, he didnt understand this for 20+ years.  But now he was sure.  

I must the second conclusion is very hard to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Tahir Ijaz:</p>
<p>What you present is common ahmadi(q) philosophy.  There is nothing new about this argument, HMBMA presented this argument in 1915.  You know that I have seen this argument.  In my opinion, this is a very weak argument.</p>
<p>Now, it must be investigated.  I started a blog on this website about a simliar problem that exists in ahmadi(q) thought.  The title of this blog was &#8220;An unfair parallel&#8221;.  </p>
<p>You wrote, <em><strong>&#8220;It took him twelve years to realize he was Messiah, despite God telling him so through downpours of revelation.&#8221;</p>
<p></strong></em>1.  God told him in 1890/1891 that jesus was dead.  That clinched the idea that he himself was the messiah.  If this revelation didnt happen, HMGA would never have taken on this role of messiah.</p>
<p>FACT:  There was a &#8220;specific revelation&#8221; that caused HMGA to change his position.  This revelation was clear and concise.  This revelation was published.  He only wrote one sentence(in BA) pre-1891 that jesus would return from the sky.  </p>
<p>You wrote, &#8220;<strong><em>A similar change occured in his conception of nabuwwat. In fact he compared this downpour of revelation regarding superiority to Jesus to his previous downpour regarding Messiah-hood.&#8221;</p>
<p></em></strong>FACT:  There is no specific revalation that caused HMGA to change his position in terms of prophethood.  HMGA did not publish a specific revelation that caused this extreme change(alleged) that cut ahmadiyyat from the fabric of Islam.  HMGA wrote in 40 forty books to the effect that GOD told him that he was a muhaddas.  </p>
<p>In summary the nature of the changes are different.  In the first change, GOD never told HMGA that Jesus was dead(from 1880 to 1890).  GOD waited until late 1890 to reveal this to HMGA.  God ordained it in this manner.  This was GOD&#8217;s wish.  This was GOD&#8217;s decision.</p>
<p>In the second change(q), GOD tried his best to explain to HMGA that he was a prophet, did HMGA turn a deaf ear to god???  HMGA didnt listen???  HMGA was defiant to GOD??  That&#8217;s hard to believe.  If there was even one revelation in 1900 to the effect that GOD told HMGA that you are a nabi.  That would change things, but that never happened.  I dont think that there is even one revelation in 1900 to 1902 in terms of prophethood.  Check Tazkirah!!!</p>
<p>M. ali didnt admit that a change occurred in 1901.  THERE WAS A CHANGE!!!!!  It&#8217;s the nature of the change that is in discussion.</p>
<p>1. Was it a change in usage of the word nabi, in other words HMGA said it was OK to use the word nabi for him.  But the definition remained the same.  There was no change in definition.  The change was in usage only.  M. ali statements of 1904 strongly show that this was the change that M. ali observed.</p>
<p>2.  HMGA seperated from Islam.  He created a name for the community(ahmadiyaa muslims).  He could have opted to be defined as just muslim in the census, but he wanted to be counted as seperate.  He claimed prophethood.  The change wasnt in usage only, it was in usage and reality.  He didnt understand what god meant when god called him prophet, he didnt understand this for 20+ years.  But now he was sure.  </p>
<p>I must the second conclusion is very hard to believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>For Tariq:

Thanks for the links, I have read this biography a number of times.  I love to re-read, I always find new points that I somehow overlooked.  

Yes, M. ali tried to debate the "kufr" theory with HMBMA.  The fact emerges HMBMA didnt care, he already won.  It really really bothers me that HMBMA wasnt trying to keep a split from happening.  It's almost like he didnt care.  That really saddens me.  

If you notice, M. ali still didnt know that HMBMA believed HMGA to be a perfect prophet.  I think the ahmadis(q) first started saying that HMGA was the object of the Ismuhu Ahmad prophecy, then came the theory of prophethood.  HMBMA didnt have any writings in this period(1914).  KK writes that some maulvis(q) were swaring with the Koran in thier right hand, that HMGA was a mutaqil nabi. 

&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;I think&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;, thats how the aaiil found out about these two new problems.

So it wasnt that the aaiil who were promoting that HMGA was &lt;em&gt;not a nabi&lt;/em&gt;, or that HMGA was not the object of the Ismuhu Ahmad prophecy, that wasnt the case, the aaiil were not the aggresors in this, ahmadis(q) and not neccesarily HMBMA were promoting that HMGA &lt;em&gt;was a nabi&lt;/em&gt;.  And before that they were promoting that HMGA was the true object of the ismuhu ahmad prophecy.  

When the aaiil heard of these ideas, they responded, KK wrote his book.  KK even wrote that HMBMA probably didnt share the same views.  KK was asking HMBMA to clarify in terms of these views.  

If you read KK's book the impression is that of chaos.  Why was the ahmadiyya jamaat in such dissaray???  This was supposed to be the best jamaat.  This was suppose to be a jamaat led by GOD!!!!

I can't comprehend why this happened.  I must say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Tariq:</p>
<p>Thanks for the links, I have read this biography a number of times.  I love to re-read, I always find new points that I somehow overlooked.  </p>
<p>Yes, M. ali tried to debate the &#8220;kufr&#8221; theory with HMBMA.  The fact emerges HMBMA didnt care, he already won.  It really really bothers me that HMBMA wasnt trying to keep a split from happening.  It&#8217;s almost like he didnt care.  That really saddens me.  </p>
<p>If you notice, M. ali still didnt know that HMBMA believed HMGA to be a perfect prophet.  I think the ahmadis(q) first started saying that HMGA was the object of the Ismuhu Ahmad prophecy, then came the theory of prophethood.  HMBMA didnt have any writings in this period(1914).  KK writes that some maulvis(q) were swaring with the Koran in thier right hand, that HMGA was a mutaqil nabi. </p>
<p><strong><em>I think</em></strong>, thats how the aaiil found out about these two new problems.</p>
<p>So it wasnt that the aaiil who were promoting that HMGA was <em>not a nabi</em>, or that HMGA was not the object of the Ismuhu Ahmad prophecy, that wasnt the case, the aaiil were not the aggresors in this, ahmadis(q) and not neccesarily HMBMA were promoting that HMGA <em>was a nabi</em>.  And before that they were promoting that HMGA was the true object of the ismuhu ahmad prophecy.  </p>
<p>When the aaiil heard of these ideas, they responded, KK wrote his book.  KK even wrote that HMBMA probably didnt share the same views.  KK was asking HMBMA to clarify in terms of these views.  </p>
<p>If you read KK&#8217;s book the impression is that of chaos.  Why was the ahmadiyya jamaat in such dissaray???  This was supposed to be the best jamaat.  This was suppose to be a jamaat led by GOD!!!!</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t comprehend why this happened.  I must say.</p>
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		<title>By: Zahid Aziz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>Zahid Aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 10:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>In response to the suggestion that it took him 12 years (1880-1891 approx.) to realise he was the Messiah, please read from the following two &lt;em&gt;ishtihars&lt;/em&gt; by HMGA issued during the publication of &lt;em&gt;Barahin Ahmadiyya&lt;/em&gt; about his claim and mission. These are right at the beginning of &lt;em&gt;Majmua Ishtiharat,&lt;/em&gt; vol. 1, on pages 20 and 24 respectively.

&lt;img src="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/ishtihar-barahin1.gif" alt="Ishtihar 1" border=1/&gt;

In the first one (above), he opens the &lt;em&gt;ishtihar &lt;/em&gt;by declaring that he has been appointed by Allah to reform mankind in the same humble, lowly and meek way in which Jesus performed his mission.


&lt;img src="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/ishtihar-barahin2.gif" alt="Ishtihar 1" border=1/&gt;

In the second one (above), he declares: "The author has been given the knowledge [i.e. by Allah] that he is the Mujaddid of the age and spiritually his qualities resemble those of the Messiah son of Mary, and the two of them bear the most intense resemblance to one another."

The words Mujaddid and Messiah are printed in bold in the &lt;em&gt;ishtihar&lt;/em&gt;.

So he knew and announced it to the world in the very early days of 1882-1883 that he was sent as a Messiah like Jesus.

The only thing was that he believed at this time that Jesus would return in person and do the works prophesied about him in Hadith. Then what he realised in 1890-91 was that Jesus has died, and that therefore it was through he himself (HMGA), who was already Messiah, that the prophecies about Jesus' coming could be fulfilled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to the suggestion that it took him 12 years (1880-1891 approx.) to realise he was the Messiah, please read from the following two <em>ishtihars</em> by HMGA issued during the publication of <em>Barahin Ahmadiyya</em> about his claim and mission. These are right at the beginning of <em>Majmua Ishtiharat,</em> vol. 1, on pages 20 and 24 respectively.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/ishtihar-barahin1.gif" alt="Ishtihar 1" border=1/></p>
<p>In the first one (above), he opens the <em>ishtihar </em>by declaring that he has been appointed by Allah to reform mankind in the same humble, lowly and meek way in which Jesus performed his mission.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/ishtihar-barahin2.gif" alt="Ishtihar 1" border=1/></p>
<p>In the second one (above), he declares: &#8220;The author has been given the knowledge [i.e. by Allah] that he is the Mujaddid of the age and spiritually his qualities resemble those of the Messiah son of Mary, and the two of them bear the most intense resemblance to one another.&#8221;</p>
<p>The words Mujaddid and Messiah are printed in bold in the <em>ishtihar</em>.</p>
<p>So he knew and announced it to the world in the very early days of 1882-1883 that he was sent as a Messiah like Jesus.</p>
<p>The only thing was that he believed at this time that Jesus would return in person and do the works prophesied about him in Hadith. Then what he realised in 1890-91 was that Jesus has died, and that therefore it was through he himself (HMGA), who was already Messiah, that the prophecies about Jesus&#8217; coming could be fulfilled.</p>
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		<title>By: Tahir Ijaz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Tahir Ijaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>Bashir, you wrote:

"I had written in my notes somewhere that after 1901, HMGA stressed his greatness.  It was linked to his success.  This was not a time to be shy.  HMGA came up with 2 new AOA(angle of attack):
1.  Call me prophet, dont be scared
2.  I am totally greater than Jesus as a Messiah"

I'm glad you noted this in your research.  I submit that a true holy man of God does not boast.  It is though constant Divine coaxing through the medium of revelation that such men reluctantly take on new titles.

It took him twelve years to realize he was Messiah, despite God telling him so through downpours of revelation. A similar change occured in his conception of nabuwwat. In fact he compared this downpour of revelation regarding superiority to Jesus to his previous downpour regarding Messiah-hood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bashir, you wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I had written in my notes somewhere that after 1901, HMGA stressed his greatness.  It was linked to his success.  This was not a time to be shy.  HMGA came up with 2 new AOA(angle of attack):<br />
1.  Call me prophet, dont be scared<br />
2.  I am totally greater than Jesus as a Messiah&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you noted this in your research.  I submit that a true holy man of God does not boast.  It is though constant Divine coaxing through the medium of revelation that such men reluctantly take on new titles.</p>
<p>It took him twelve years to realize he was Messiah, despite God telling him so through downpours of revelation. A similar change occured in his conception of nabuwwat. In fact he compared this downpour of revelation regarding superiority to Jesus to his previous downpour regarding Messiah-hood.</p>
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		<title>By: Tariq</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>Tariq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>Maulana Mhhammad Ali went even further and even agreed to accept Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib as the leader of the jama'at provided he did not force existing Ahmadis to take &lt;em&gt;ba'ait&lt;/em&gt; at his hands and agreed to put this issue of &lt;em&gt;takfir &lt;/em&gt;in front of the community. This was a very principled approach to this issue. 

&lt;a href="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/books/m-kabir/mjk3-1.htm#establishment" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;Please see this link from his biography.&lt;/a&gt; (It takes you to the relevant section directly.)

Years later too, Maulana Muhammad Ali repeatedly invited Mirza Mahmud Ahmad to debates in various forms. For details, &lt;a href="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/books/m-kabir/mjk3-6c.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;please read this section in his biography.&lt;/a&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maulana Mhhammad Ali went even further and even agreed to accept Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib as the leader of the jama&#8217;at provided he did not force existing Ahmadis to take <em>ba&#8217;ait</em> at his hands and agreed to put this issue of <em>takfir </em>in front of the community. This was a very principled approach to this issue. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/books/m-kabir/mjk3-1.htm#establishment" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Please see this link from his biography.</a> (It takes you to the relevant section directly.)</p>
<p>Years later too, Maulana Muhammad Ali repeatedly invited Mirza Mahmud Ahmad to debates in various forms. For details, <a href="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/books/m-kabir/mjk3-6c.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">please read this section in his biography.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1981</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1981</guid>
		<description>For Tariq:

Ooops, I made a mistake, yes I meant that HMGA was &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;not &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;an independent prophet.  And yes, Jesus did receive wahy nubuwwat.  You make alot of sense.  

In all of my research I have found it hard to prove that HMGA went from non-prophet to prophet after 1901.  I have to admit, it's hard to believe.  But people believe it.  I consider myself in the circle of the people who believe it.  But i admit, it's hard to see it, an ahmadi(q) musty rely on faith in HMBMA....

Two theories developed , one became more popular than the other.  M. ali had better arguments, but HMBMA was supposed to be Musleh Maud, he was untouchable.  This is quite the dilemma..........

I think HMBMA should have invited M. ali to qadian for a debate on these issues(right after he was elected).  I think that HMBMA didnt care.  He won the khilafat....what else was left.  It bothers me that HMBMA didnt do this.  It bothers me that M. ali asked for some time to choose a khalifa and HMBMA turned down his offer.  Even though 6 months is too long, I think one week should have been enough to decide the matter.

i think that after HMBMA was elected, HMBMA should have allowed this "kufr" matter to be resolved.  But he didnt, M. ali had to leave qadian for his safety.  

Then came KK's book(NOV 1914) which brought everything out into the open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Tariq:</p>
<p>Ooops, I made a mistake, yes I meant that HMGA was <em><strong>not </strong></em>an independent prophet.  And yes, Jesus did receive wahy nubuwwat.  You make alot of sense.  </p>
<p>In all of my research I have found it hard to prove that HMGA went from non-prophet to prophet after 1901.  I have to admit, it&#8217;s hard to believe.  But people believe it.  I consider myself in the circle of the people who believe it.  But i admit, it&#8217;s hard to see it, an ahmadi(q) musty rely on faith in HMBMA&#8230;.</p>
<p>Two theories developed , one became more popular than the other.  M. ali had better arguments, but HMBMA was supposed to be Musleh Maud, he was untouchable.  This is quite the dilemma&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>I think HMBMA should have invited M. ali to qadian for a debate on these issues(right after he was elected).  I think that HMBMA didnt care.  He won the khilafat&#8230;.what else was left.  It bothers me that HMBMA didnt do this.  It bothers me that M. ali asked for some time to choose a khalifa and HMBMA turned down his offer.  Even though 6 months is too long, I think one week should have been enough to decide the matter.</p>
<p>i think that after HMBMA was elected, HMBMA should have allowed this &#8220;kufr&#8221; matter to be resolved.  But he didnt, M. ali had to leave qadian for his safety.  </p>
<p>Then came KK&#8217;s book(NOV 1914) which brought everything out into the open.</p>
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		<title>By: Tariq</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Tariq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Bashir,
you wrote:
&#62;&#62;HMGA was an independent prophet.&#60;&#60;

I presume you mean Jesus was an independent prophet and not HMGA.
&#62;&#62;One point, HMGA had more frequent revelation.  HMGA’s 1/46th of prophethood outshined the 46/46 of Jesus.  This was in terms of revelation only. &#60;&#60;

Jesus(as) received wahi-nabuwwat (revelation given to prophets) which HMGA did not. The way HMGA defines his superiority is as far as I like to go. I see no virtue in trying to fine tune this point any further.

Also, &lt;strong&gt;this 1901 business is a red herring,&lt;/strong&gt; nothing more. Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib was clutching at straws to get some support from HMGA’s writings for his theory of change. In reality, the only thing here is the title of a booklet (Aik Ghalati Ka Izala or Correction of An Error) which is tantalizing only for those who care to just read the title and are in the habit of blindly following their leader. The booklet itself says just the opposite as you yourself have pointed out.
&lt;hr&gt;
&lt;em&gt;Note by Zahid Aziz:&lt;/em&gt; This "superiority" of HMGA is only a reflection of the superiority of the Holy Prophet Muhammad over other prophets. Its only purpose is to show the superiority of the Holy Prophet. Please see http://www.ahmadiyya.org/noclaim/hqw-rep.htm and scroll down to the heading "Quote 12".

In the 2nd South Africa case (1987), Dr Mahmood Ahmad Ghazi raised this point as an accusation against HMGA. After our explanation, the lady Judge said to Ghazi: Can't you understand that what Mirza is saying is that Muhammad is so great that even his followers can excel Jesus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bashir,<br />
you wrote:<br />
&gt;&gt;HMGA was an independent prophet.&lt;&lt;</p>
<p>I presume you mean Jesus was an independent prophet and not HMGA.<br />
&gt;&gt;One point, HMGA had more frequent revelation.  HMGA’s 1/46th of prophethood outshined the 46/46 of Jesus.  This was in terms of revelation only. &lt;&lt;</p>
<p>Jesus(as) received wahi-nabuwwat (revelation given to prophets) which HMGA did not. The way HMGA defines his superiority is as far as I like to go. I see no virtue in trying to fine tune this point any further.</p>
<p>Also, <strong>this 1901 business is a red herring,</strong> nothing more. Mirza Mahmud Ahmad Sahib was clutching at straws to get some support from HMGA’s writings for his theory of change. In reality, the only thing here is the title of a booklet (Aik Ghalati Ka Izala or Correction of An Error) which is tantalizing only for those who care to just read the title and are in the habit of blindly following their leader. The booklet itself says just the opposite as you yourself have pointed out.</p>
<hr />
<em>Note by Zahid Aziz:</em> This &#8220;superiority&#8221; of HMGA is only a reflection of the superiority of the Holy Prophet Muhammad over other prophets. Its only purpose is to show the superiority of the Holy Prophet. Please see <a href="http://www.ahmadiyya.org/noclaim/hqw-rep.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ahmadiyya.org/noclaim/hqw-rep.htm</a> and scroll down to the heading &#8220;Quote 12&#8243;.</p>
<p>In the 2nd South Africa case (1987), Dr Mahmood Ahmad Ghazi raised this point as an accusation against HMGA. After our explanation, the lady Judge said to Ghazi: Can&#8217;t you understand that what Mirza is saying is that Muhammad is so great that even his followers can excel Jesus?</p>
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		<title>By: Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/08/15/english-author-uses-word-apostle-for-sayyid-ahmad-barelvi-by-an/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=112#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>For Tariq:

I actually misunderstood you.  I think we both wrote about the same thing i.e. HMGA was greater than Jesus in everything except prophethood.

One point, HMGA had more frequent revelation.  HMGA's 1/46th of prophethood outshined the 46/46 of Jesus.  This was in terms of revelation only.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Tariq:</p>
<p>I actually misunderstood you.  I think we both wrote about the same thing i.e. HMGA was greater than Jesus in everything except prophethood.</p>
<p>One point, HMGA had more frequent revelation.  HMGA&#8217;s 1/46th of prophethood outshined the 46/46 of Jesus.  This was in terms of revelation only.   </p>
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