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November 10th, 2009

Discussion between Ex Qadiani Akbar Ahmad Chaudhry and Qadiani Anwar Mirza on Iqra TV.

Submitted by Rashid Jahangiri.


Akbar raises a few objections:

1- Claimant of Mujaddidiyat should NOT claim, rather people should call him. I guess his understanding is that if Governor of a province or state when gets appointed by King or president, he should NOT acknowledge it rather wait for people to send him mercy petitions and other documents for his signatures. What if a false person claims to be a Governor or his few friends start calling him governor… shouldn’t king or president take action against such con artist, and punish him? Is Akbar going to accept any such con artist as his governor?

2- He objects why HMGA was NOT informed Isaa AS has died when he was appointed Mujaddid. I wonder if he knows there are many other Mujjaddids before him who were not informed all their lives that Isaa AS has died.

3- He seems to have objection why HMGA made different claims and at different times. He does not realize that HMGA made only one claim of appointment i.e. Mujaddid of 14th Islamic century. Claim of messenger, just like Rasul Allah SAWS is a lie fabricated against him. Claim of Mahdi is not an appointment claim.

4- He objects why HMGA did not publish 50 volumes of Barahin-Ahmadiyya and only published 5 volumes. Akbar very conveniently forgets to mention HMGA published so much other material and books, he was involved in discussions etc and NEVER rested or wasted his time. He forgets to mention that how much of his time was wasted by his detractors and opponent Mullahs in India. Regarding money that was donated to him for Barahein-Ahmadiyya publication. All that money was used in publication of this book. And much more was used in preaching of Islam. Akbar hid the fact that when HMGA passed away his children and wife depended on Ahmadiyya Movement for their survival.
HMGA did NOT keep any money for himself or his family.

5- He hid the fact that HMGA books, many of them translated are available online on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement websites. But he uses Qadianis website as punching bag.

6- He talks about his problems with Qadiani jamaat, but attacks HMGA. Just the way atheists who have left Christianity had problems with Christian church and doctrines and instead attack Jesus. He is happy leaving Qadiani jamaat, but is hiding the fact that he is NOT leaving qadiani belief of Isaa AS death. He knows if he makes mistake of telling his belief, he will kicked back by his “new” religion followers.

7- Just like any opponent of Rasul Allah SAWS who are unable to appreciate his mission, start making false allegations on his character, Akbar did the same with HMGA.

8- He stated the doctrines of Qadiani jamaat khalifa 2 and his brother and accused HMGA of making them. He accuses HMGA for prohibiting his movement people from praying behind other Muslims, whereas fact is that HMGA himself prayed behind other Muslims e.g. Jamia Mosque, Delhi. He accuses HMGA for prohibiting his movement people from marrying other Muslims, where as fact is that he attended marriage ceremonies and Nikah (marriage sermon) was conducted by Maulana Noor Ud Din when Ahmadi girl was married to non-Ahmadi Muslims, e.g. two sisters one got married to HMGA’s son Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and other to a non-Ahmadi.

I wish this Iqra TV program invites Dr. Zahid Aziz to get Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement point of view.
Here are links to 8 part videos of this program on you tube:

Part1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HDY3OZwgp0
Part2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnbuXwTCtCo
Part3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du1ogVm_f_8
Part4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjko30ksgCY
Part5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDDUsvgkd3k
Part6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8nkg1sVaEs
Part7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7fizFUH6k
Part8:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHoDxnTh9cM

63 Responses to “Discussion between Ex Qadiani Akbar Ahmad Chaudhry and Qadiani Anwar Mirza on Iqra TV.”

  1. Brother, Asalamo Alaikum,
    Why are you shy of saying “Jamat Ahmadiyya Qadian”? instead you are calling them as ‘Qadiani group”. Have you not heard the Hadith about the people who distort the names of others?
    So arrogant. Inna Lillah wa Inna Alai Rajoon.


  2. Neither I as a writer nor our Jamaat in general have any reservations about referring to “Jamaat-i Ahmadiyya Qadian” or indeed “Jamaat-i Ahmadiyya Rabwah”. We have been using the latter term since Rabwah was established.

    I would, however, refer you to the usage in much of your literature where our organisation is called as just “Anjuman Ishaat-i Islam”, rather than “Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat-i Islam”.

    The term “Paighami” is also used for us, which you derive from the name of our Urdu organ. But as that organ was named after the last book of the Promised Messiah, how can we object to being called “Paighamis”?


  3. 1. Obviously Akber has a problem with the ahmadis(q). Zahid Aziz should go on Iqra himself with just a questioner(an iqra rep.) and explain the beliefs of HMGA in terms of AAIIL thought process.

    2. I am sure if ZA goes on IQRA this show will be watched heavily. Then the ahmadis(q) will be compelled to send an official representative/scholar.

    3. The ahmadi(q) who was on the show was AVERAGE. He probably didnt even know that his jamaat believes that HMGA claimed prophethood in 1901.


  4. JazakAllah Aziz sahib for responding.

    Bashir Sahib, every other person is opening TV channel on You Tube, even you can go ahead and make a dozen for youself and post vedios. This is a very childish expectation that religious headquaters (AMI or any other)  will be rushing to respond them like they do not have anything else to do.

    There is long list of such people who are challenging both Jamats by posting few vedios or by making a website.

    On top of this we already know the crediblity of these people and their background.
    Not sure why are you so willing to dispatch Mr Aziz to him (Akbar)?
    I do not want to comment on his personal account. Has Mr Akbar become a great scholar, in your eyes, by posting a few clips on You Tube?


  5. Yes some one from lahories must also go to the discussion but with references.
    I am sure many of the normal qadianis havent even heard about this alternative belief.
     
    Coz I have seen many qadianis who dont know about official stance of their organization
     
     


  6. Akbar Chaudhry replied to my above post on Shahid Kamal Ahmad blog. His replies, numbered by him, are answered by me.


    @Akber November 14, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    1. Nobody else ever claimed ‘mujaddadiyat’ – reformer
    Shahid, if you don’t know, it does NOT mean other Mujaddids did not claim Mujaddiyat. By your logic that Mamur-min-Allah should not claim of Mujaddiyat, then even Rasul Allah SAWS should NOT have claimed of his appointment. Moreover, beside Rasul Allah SAWS, tell us where are claims of messenger hood of prophets before Rasul Allah SAWS??? Are you going to say that NO messenger before Rasul Allah SAWS made any claim of messenger hood???

    2. Sir Syed had aired this view in best-selling book for 11 years before
    Before Sir Syed MANY others claimed Isaa AS is dead. Still NO mujaddid (per my knowledge) before HMGA aired his view that Jesus is dead. Why don’t you have problem with them???

    3. Masih Maouood? Masil-e-Masih? Krishna? Buruzi and Zilli?
    NONE of these are appointments. If you don’t have the basic knowledge of what is being Mamur-min-Allah claim and what is not, then YOU should EDUCATE yourself. Is it not your responsibility to educate yourself before making false statements???

    4. Any list of 300 ‘braheen’? 1 was in vol 1-4. Where are 299?
    You accused HMGA of taking money for 50 Braheen Ahmadiyya volumes, in other words “embezzling” that money. But you did NOT have MORAL courage and HONESTY that you could say, “HMGA spent even his own money in service of Islam, so much so that his children were on public assistance (i.e. from jamaat) for their survival upon his death”. Where is your honesty???

    5. Full Braheen is not on Lahori site – Footnote 11 is 80% of the main book!
    You claimed that HMGA books are hidden by those who accept him as true person. Giving the impression, as if they are ashamed of his books. Did you NOT know that so many books of HMGA are available on line??? Did you not lie??? Wait and keep checking InshAllah all of HMGA books will become available on line. I personally know Braheen Ahmadiyya has been translated into English. It is going through proof reading, review etc. It will be InshAllah printed and made available on line. Why you did NOT say LAM has made many HMGA books and their translations available online and I hope they will make available rest of them too??? Where is your honesty???

    6. I do not hide anything. My beliefs are public. My religion is Islam.
    You NEVER told in TV program that what KALMA you recited to become Muslim, that you NEVER recited before??? You NEVER told that you do NOT believe in death of Jesus??? Where is your honesty and boldness???

    7. Muhammadi Begum? False? Asking son to divorce? False?
    If you lack understanding and conditions of prophecy of Mamur-min-Allah, then it is YOUR fault. It does NOT mean prophecy did not come true. To gain some understanding of prophecies regarding Muhammadi begum you could have read:

    Mirza Ahmad Beg Hoshiarpuri aur Us ke Damad Sultan Muhammad ke Muta’alliq Peshgoian Nihayat Shan Dar Tariqe Se Puri Huin by Sheikh Abdur Rehman Misri

    Why you did NOT read this book??? Is it because you can lie??? Does ignorance on YOUR part makes the prophecies regarding Muhammadi begum questionable??? Have you even read Chapter 22 of ‘Great Reformer’ (Mujaddid-e-Azam)???

    8. Anecdotes do not add up to doctrine. Delhi mosque visit was very very early on. Where’s honesty?
    If you had read HMGA statements regarding his claim even couple of days before he passed away, you would have known that he NEVER changed his “very very early” claim. So, does it matter if he did not offer prayer in mosque in Delhi the day before he passed away??? Do you know that when ever time for prayer came and he was with those who had not done his ba’it still he offered prayers with them in congregation???

    9. Zahid Aziz is welcome to debate me on any media, written or spoken, in Urdu or in English – at any time.
    You knew that LAM does NOT hold beliefs that Qadianis have, then why did you NOT inform the host that there is group of other followers of HMGA i.e. LAM who hold different beliefs than Qadianis and that they should be invited and that you would like to hold discussion with their member??? Where is your honesty??? Obviously you have contact with Iqra, as you were called by them, then what is stopping you from informing Iqra to invite LAM member, e.g. Dr. Zahid Aziz???


    P.S. Shahid Kamal is constantly deleting my reminders, demanding answers to my questions regarding ‘1000 curses’. So far he has deleted my reminders number 2, 3, and 4. My posts go through moderation, and get deleted.


  7. As to the comment “5. Full Braheen is not on Lahori site – Footnote 11 is 80% of the main book!”

    The vast majority of this footnote was translated and published in the AAIIL organ ‘The Light’ during the 1950s, about 55 years ago.

    A beautifully printed Urdu edition of Barahin-i Ahmadiyya was published by the AAIIL in 1968.

    Since BA was highly acclaimed by Muslim Ulama when it was published in the 1880s, why should we try to hide it!


  8. November 15th, 2009 at 8:27 am
    From Webmaster aaiil.org:

    Just for everyone’s information. We have many of the editions of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s books published in his time scanned, but these need meticulous quality control. Some pages have text that has become faint over time, so we have to locate additional copies to rescan those pages. We have nothing to hide. All will be online in time.

    We could place these books, and books by other authors, that haven’t passed our quality control mechanisms online. Similar to the magazine archive’s raw pdf files that we have placed. If this would be appreciated, please let us know.

    Wassalam,
    Webmaster,
    aaiil.org


  9. The Webmaster of aaiil.org has further pointed out that archives of The Light in a “raw” form, with one pdf  file for each year, are available online at:

    http://aaiil.org/text/articles/thelight/thelight.shtml

    The serialisation of footnote 11 of Barahin Ahmadiyya begins in the issue for 24 August 1954. I have extracted those two pages and these can be viewed at this link as a pdf file.

    The start of this installment corresponds to Ruhani Khaza’in, v. 1, p. 150, footnote. Our detracters should now feel it their duty to comment on the contents on this extract.


  10. @webmaster aaiil.org
    “We could place these books, and books by other authors, that haven’t passed our quality control mechanisms online. Similar to the magazine archive’s raw pdf files that we have placed. If this would be appreciated, please let us know.”
     
    I would suggest making books available, even if they have not passed quality control. Later these can be replaced with editions that pass quality control. This way visitor can have knowledge of their availability and benefit from them. Also opponents of HMGA and LAM won’t be able to malign us, as if God forbid we are ashamed of our books.


    The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam

    Informative article on Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam AKA Ahrari-Jamaat, and its interaction with Ahmadiyya Movement on Pak Tea House:

    The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam

    (When the above link opens, scroll to top of page to read article.)


  11. Opponent “translation” of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya.
     
    Akbar Chaudhry has posted his translation of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya.
    He has written comments such as:
    (1)
    Braheen Volume 1 – Full Translation of Advertisement – first time ever 
    It took me four hours to summarize the volume and translate in full the Advertisement that is the bulk of Volume 1 of Braheen. Qadianis and Lahoris have not translated it for 129 years.
    See this link
     
    You can see the categories and sub-categories of arguments – 300 in all – that MGA claimed that he had already written. Where are the categories? Where are the rest?
     
    (2)
    Braheen Volume 4 – MGA the linguist, anthropologist and complicator of religion. Here is half of Volume 4 (main text), translated for the first time after 125 years.

    See link here
     
    I think Ahmadi scientists should quit their cult now. MGA’s views on religion, linguistics and anthropology are so off-the-mark that he was a ‘dis-former’ instead of a reformer.
     
    Am so tired after a whole day in MGA’s mind


  12. We should be most grateful for these efforts. Perhaps the translator would care to comment on the following in his list of contents:

    •page 14-16 – Persian poem in praise of God
    •page 16-17 Praise of God and Muhammad(saw) in Urdu
    •page 17-23 Poem in Persian in praise of Muhammad(saw)

    Then under “Main offer (pages 24-28)”, it says the book is addressed to:

    “…those leaders of religion and nation who negate the truth of the Quran and the prophethood of Muhammad…”

    “… those arguments and proofs that I have presented for the truth of the Quran and the Prophet (saw) from the Quran …”

    Is such a writer a non-Muslim and enemy of Islam?

    Before jumping to the question whether his discussion shows him to be a reformer, please answer whether it shows him to be a Muslim and one anxious to prove the truth of the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

    An offer:

    We have the full review of Barahin-i Ahmadiyya done by Maulvi Muhammad Husain Batalvi, who later became a leading opponent of Hazrat Mirza sahib. Are you willing to publish it on your website, and perhaps also to translate it?


  13. My post in reply to Akbar Chaudhry reply on Shahid Kamal blog.
    *************************
    Rashid November 16, 2009 at 8:02 am

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    REPLY TO AKBAR CHAUDHRY POST: Lahoris? Is that you?
    Your: Frankly, I had some respect for the Lahoris that they do not play the Qadiani games, but I guess they are one step ahead and appear to be more of a cult.
    Frankly, before watching you on Iqra TV and reading your posts, I thought of you as some one who honestly came to conclusion and decided to oppose HMGA. But in your Iqra appearance you left NO doubt in my mind that you’re a DISHONEST person who SHAMELESSLY hid the facts. I pointed your DISHONESTY in my previous two posts on your appearance on Iqra TV.
    Your: Also, the language being tolerated on this forum is not acceptable,and not conducive to healthy debate.
    Calling LIAR a liar, thief a thief is NOT abusive language. Holy Quran used word BASTARD for an illegitimate Makkan opponent of Rasul Allah SAWS.
    Your: 1. So, 13 mujaddids did not make any claim and they were ‘mamoors’ or not? Is the 14th mujaddid the mamoor, who has to claim first and then does not even show what he ‘reformed’? And that is all OK? So, MGA was ‘just a mujaddid’ but ’special’? There is the fallacy of the Lahoris and that is why they will always lag behind their fellow Qadianis – at least the Qadianis are truthful about MGA.
    There were MORE than 13 Mujaddids before HMGA. They ALL made claims of appointment. Just the way ALL messengers of Allah SWT before Rasul Allah SAWS made claims of Mamuriyat (appointment by Allah SWT). Your IGNORANCE does NOT mean Mujjaddids did not make claims of mamuriyat. Is it not your responsibility to educate yourself about mamuriyat claims of Mujaddids??? If you are ignorant, AS YOU ARE, shouldn’t you say that according to YOUR knowledge/ information previous Mujjaddids did not make claim of Mamuriat??? Why do you accept that ALL messengers of Allah SWT before Rasul Allah SAWS made claims of Mamuriyat??? Why don’t you DISAGREE with Rasul Allah SAWS for making claim of Mamuriyat??? I asked you these questions before; why are you avoiding my these questions??? You are “praising” Qadianis because you find it easy to beat them. Why are you showing this dishonesty???
    Your: 2. The particular view on Eesa (as) was well-known in Islam circles, Sir Syed had published it in his best-seller Tafseer-ul-Quran, and Sir Syed’s students and disciples were among MGA’s right hand men, and MGA had studied Sir Syed thoroughly and addressed him in his publications. So, if I go to university and learn about the Indus civilization, and then one day, claim that God ‘revealed’ it to me in a dream, and that I am the true discoverer of the Indus civilization as I was appointed by God to reveal this truth, what does that make me? A laughing-stock? The matter of Eesa’s (as) death is a historical and scientific theory. And MGA book contains an almost verbatim copy of Sir Syed’s Tafseer-ul-Quran. So, having been appointed, it is OK to be a plagiarist?
    You know that there were many before HMGA who told Isa AS is dead. Rasul Allah SAWS told this. Holy Quran tells this. Why are you just giving credit of this “discovery” to Sir Syed Ahmad Khan only??? You know HMGA NEVER said that he is the ONLY or the FIRST person to do this discovery. Why are you trying to hide this fact??? Why don’t you call Sir Syed Ahmad Khan “plagiarist” of Rasul Allah SAWS??? Why don’t you call Sir Syed Ahmad Khan a great “cheater” who cheated his “discovery” from Holy Quran??? Why are you showing DISHONESTY by avoiding answering my questions on this issue that I asked previously???
    Your: 3. So, are you saying that ‘maseel-maseeh’ and ‘maseeh-mauood’ were not the central claims of MGA? And that he did not focus on them throughout the 1890s? Wow! And that MGA did not claiim to be the re-incarnation of Krishna? and a zilli, buruzi prophet? When is a claim an ‘appointment’ and when is it not? So, if someone claims all these lofty titles without ‘appointment’ what does that make him? An imposter? He was appointed only ‘mujaddid’ yet he claimed a number of other preposterous claims? Why? And what does that make him?
    I am qualified Physician for my patients. I also call my self ‘EXPOSER OF LIES AND DISHONESTY OF AKBAR CHAUDHRY’. But my official qualification remains the same i.e. M.D. Calling myself ‘EXPOSER OF LIES AND DISHONESTY OF AKBAR CHAUDHRY’ does NOT make me imposter. Why are you trying to confuse by mixing Mamuriyat of Mujjaddid hood with other terms that HMGA used to explain himself to particular audience???
    Your: 4. Braheen: MGA said that he had gathered 300 braheen that he was going to present in 50 volumes. He started with Burhan #1. Where is the list of the other 299. Obviously an author has a list of them, even if he did not find the time to write them out, or lost interest (as he says in an ad that he is going to discontinue this as God has other plans for him). So, all I am asking is where is the list of 300? Out of which 1 was published?
    What makes you think that HMGA was under obligation to preserve his list of 299??? He did NOT sign any contract, for which he was bound to write/ produce 299Burhan??? He had some plan to write more Burhan, but changed his mind and concentrated on some thing else. Why you think he had no such right??? I did MS in Engineering and had all plans to pursue career as Engineer for my living. But I changed and decided to pursue a career of Physician for my living. Do you think anyone has right to object on my career change??? Who are you to question HMGA??? Why don’t you question your elder i.e. Mullah opponent of HMGA who wasted his precious time by making FALSE accusations for which he had to reply and write/ publish books; or had to go to courts of law to defend himself??? Why don’t you question your Mullah elders who if they had not wasted HMGA time, he could have written another 45 books and 299 Burhan, in addition to his 80 plus books??? Where is your sense of justice??? Where is your honesty???
    Your: ‘Acclaimed by Ulama’ is not a fact. The only ‘ulama’ listed on the Lahori site is Muhammad Hussain Batalvi, whom MGA cursed and belittled all his life. So do you want your cake and eat it too?
    Why you have problem with accepting a truth that LEADER of his opponents had praised HMGA efforts in form Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya??? What makes you think there was no other who had appreciated HMGA efforts of fulfillment of his prophecies and his truthfulness??? One of my ancestors who NEVER did ba’it (pledge) of HMGA did write letter to HMGA when his prophecy regarding death of Laikh-Ram came true. Why don’t you accept that it is YOUR IGNORANCE or lack of knowledge that others also appreciated HMGA efforts???
    Your: 5. The English translation on the Lahori site is misleading – it has a different title, it skips Vol 1 completely and then it picks and chooses, and gives its own title headings. It is an ‘abridged synopsis’ by another author, and not a translation by any stretch of the word.
    I NEVER said it is complete translation. Actually, if you had read its preface, you would have known that author himself says it is ABRIDGED version and changes has been made to make it readable, by taking out redundancy that is there because the original book is in Urdu language, and although acceptable in Urdu linguistic style. Why you didn’t say in your TV appearance that Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement has made HMGA available books and their translations on their websites and you hope they will make available each and every book of HMGA??? Why you did NOT mention LAM websites that have HMGA books??? Why did you try to give FALSE impression, as if God forbid ALL those who consider HMGA truthful person, are “ashamed” of his books and are “hiding” them??? Why don’t you call yourself a LIAR???
    Your: See full post on Braheen.
    If you think you are honest translator of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya and LAM is hiding it etc; then why you NEVER brought it on LAM blog??? Is it NOT your responsibility to at least try to get an answer from the accused before accusing him??? Why don’t you think you’re such attitude doesn’t make you an unjust and dishonest person???
    Your: 6. The TV program was not about me, it was about the Qadiani who had requested to be on there. I was only given a chance to respond to him. My beliefs and thoughts will be published in book form soon insha Allah.
    How TV producer came to know about you??? There are many people who left Qadiani Jamaat for example Mushtaq Malik, well known on YouTube. But TV producer did NOT call him??? It is obvious TV program was NOT about Qadiani Jamaat but against HMGA. You definitely had some interaction with TV people. Why you did NOT tell them that since program is about HMGA so it would be only fair if LAM member should also be called??? Why don’t you accept that if you had to face LAM member all your pseudo-intellectualism, and “finding of truth” would have been exposed??? Is this not your dishonesty??? Are you going to publish that Isaa AS is dead??? If you try to hide your belief regarding Isaa AS in your book, don’t you think this will prove you to be dishonest person???
    Your: 7. The character of MGA in the Muhammadi Begum episode and in his ‘Promised Son’ series of failed prophecies is despicable by any human standard of morality. And so is your reply Calling a married woman your real wife who is married to you in heaven, and then saying that she will be widowed and come back to him, and she never did. It is beyond despicable and unprecedented in human spiritual history. A married woman is a ‘muhsanah’ in the Islamic tradition. And what is a marriage in heaven?
    Is it wrong to marry??? Have you read YOURSELF and IN CONTEXT and can you say UNDER OATH with invitation of Allah SWT WRATH and DESTRUCTION of yourself and your CHILDREN, that you came to the conclusion that you wrote to in your above point??? Don’t you think honesty demand from you that you should make above statement under oath and invitation of destruction of your children and family???
    Your: 8. MGA is on the record as stopping his followers from praying behind other Muslims and inter-marrying their daughters, and treating them as ahl-e-Kitab. When it came to rich people, MGA and his family always bends the rules. Anecdotes are not equal to published doctrine.
    Can you provide reference and context of above in writing of HMGA??? Have you read above in writing of HMGA??? Are you willing to say UNDER OATH with invitation of WRATH and destruction of Allah SWT on your children, family and yourself what you wrote in above point??? Don’t you think you will become a LIAR if you don’t make above statement under oath in your next post in reply to my this post???
    Your: 9. Zahid Aziz is welcome to debate on any issue on any media at any time. We can have a video, written, whatever. I respect him (at least up to now) and am willing to discuss anything with him. The best things would be a written debate, moderated by three independent university professors of the social sciences.
    Don’t you think this is DISHONESTY on your part that you accused HMGA and hid the facts in your Iqra appearance where thousands of viewers watched you and listened to your LIES and now you are asking to have debate where the same thousands of viewers are NOT able to see through you and see your LIES busted??? What is stopping you from contacting Iqra TV to hold debate between you and Dr. Zahid Aziz??? Why don’t you think it will be only fair to first hold debate with Dr. Zahid Aziz on the same Iqra TV program, and then what ever other venue you would like, if any life is left in your LIES???
    Your: I expected better from the Lahoris.
    Honestly, before your LIES in Iqra TV I had better opinion of you.


  14. It would help if you talk about one issue at a time.  The allegation is that we are hiding Barahin Ahmadiyya. Our replies are:

    1. We published the original book (in Urdu). Our opponents read Urdu. In fact, far more of them read Urdu than those who can’t read Urdu. How can this be “hiding”?

    2. This book was hailed by others Muslims, and did not arouse opposition from them. So why should we try to hide it?

    3. If our opponents are translating it, I am offering to co-operate with them. Whatever sections they translate (and I don’t mean their own comments within it), I will publish it on the ahmadiyya.org website. Thank you very much.

    Remember that it was the opponents of Islam who first translated the Quran into English (George Sale in 1734, Rodwell 1860s), and wrote that they have translated it to show readers how obviously false this book is, and what a “criminal Muhammad was”.

    In return, I offer you my English translations of his books to put on your website, starting with Fath-i Islam, his first book after claiming to be Promised Messiah.

    4. Maulvi Muhammad Husain Batalvi has written dozens and dozens of pages in his periodical about Barahin Ahmadiyya, many of them summarising the whole of the book. That is a part of history. I am offering these opponents those pages. Earlier today I looked them up in my archives.


  15. I think this guy is just mentioning the fact that Braheen Ahmadiyya is not on alislam.org, yet it is heralded as the biggest masterpiece of HMGA.

    The AAIIL has put in on their website, I dont think he knew that. I think the aaiil have tried to translate it but have limited resources. The other ahmads(q) have no excuse.


  16. I dont think Rashid is understanding the concerns that have been raised.

    1. Again, Akber is stating that the english version of braheen ahmadiyya is not as available in english as other books have been. In other words its not as popular as jesus in India or Philosophy of the teachings of Islam.

    2. The AAIIL have translated and made available lots of the braheen. But the full version is missing. Akber states that it seems that the aaiil and the AMI have something to hide. In other words Akber is stating that is very strange that the masterpiece of HMGA is not readily available in english.

    3. Akber has even translated over 20 pages of the braheen over at the anti-ahmadiyya website. Thus proving that translations are very easy to do. Translating books is not a hard job. It is truly amazing to me that the AMI hasnt translated all of the books of HMGA and HMBMA.

    4. The AAIIL have limited resources, I undeerstand their concern fully. Even with these limited resources they have performed admirably.

    5. I am personally frustrated by not being able to read kalamatul fasl, haqiqat nubuwwa and qaul al fasl and many others. On the other hand the AAIIL have translated almost all of M. ali books.


  17. Bashir’s comment ignores the following points I made above:

    1. The book is available in Urdu, which is the first and principal language of the opponents of Hazrat Mirza sahib. It is easily accessible on the Qadiani Jamaat website. AAIIL re-calligraphed and published it twice.

    2. It hardly contains any controversial claim regarding Hazrat Mirza sahib’s position. There is no need to hide this book, as it shows how he tried to prove the truth of Islam.

    3. I am happy to publish the translation of Barahin Ahmadiyya done by Mr Akber if it is accurate to the original words. I am happy to suggest to him other Urdu books of Hazrat Mirza sahib he could translate.

    I and other AAIIL members feel sorry, deeply regretful that we have not been able to publish a complete translation, because we believe that the world would have benefitted from it. However, our opponents should be happy that by not translating it a large part of the world has been saved from reading (what they consider as) the false and useless arguments presented by an imposter and enemy of Islam, which bring Islam into disrepute!

    After all, Ahmadiyya books are banned in most Muslim countries, including Pakistan, for fear that they would mislead Muslims. If our opponents including Mr Akber campaign for our books to be fully exposed in Muslim countries we would be grateful to him.


  18. ZA: sorry for ignoring your points. Akber failed to mention that the braheen are available in urdu in their totality.

    1. When was the last time that the braheen were officially published? In urdu or english.

    1.a. Inait Ali Khan wrote that HMGA’s birth was in 1839, see the preface of BA:

    4/123

    http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mga/barahinahmadiyya/barahinahmadiyya.pdf

    2. I had asked a similiar question about EGKI. I always wondered as to how many copies were published of this pamphlet in 1901. Then, when was the second batch of books published, and how many were sold.

    3. I think the AAIIL have tried their best to get the books of HMGA out to the public.

    4. Did Akber say something about the footnotes of BA vol. 4? Is one of those footnotes the majority of the book?


  19. Offer to Akbar Chaudhry
     
    According to my information LAM member Masud Akhtar sahib did English translation of whole of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya, including its footnotes, and he handed the manuscript to Dr. Zahid Aziz for revision, typesetting and proof reading. I don’t know at what stage it is now.

    I am willing to pay you or any other opponent of HMGA and LAM who can translate HMGA books that have not yet been translated into English. You pick the book for translation. Only one requirement from my side: Translation has to be approved by Dr. Zahid Aziz.


  20. “Akber has even translated over 20 pages of the braheen over at the anti-ahmadiyya website. Thus proving that translations are very easy to do. Translating books is not a hard job.”

    Please rethink this statement.

    I do agree that a lot more of HMGA’s books should have been translated….but by no stretch of the imagination is this an “easy” undertaking.


  21. November 17th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
    From Webmaster aaiil.org:

    If it helps everyone, the unpublished manuscript of B-e-A can be made available online in scanned format. Only if Dr. ZA would agree to this, as an unpublished manuscript may contain errors and may have been translated incorrectly and runs risks of causing more harm than good, in the larger sense. We have this title and 2 other major books in scanned format (manuscripts, though).
    WS,
    Webmaster,
    aaiil.org


  22. My two cents worth: lets publish books when we are satisfied and not under this kind of make belief pressure. These people throw everything at us plus the kitchen sink. This is their flavour-of-the-month charge againt MGA (and us); tomorrow it will be something else. They will just move on to something else without addressing our points.
     


  23. Two more cents:



    16:125. (Prophet!) call the people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly and kind exhortation, and argue with them in the most pleasant and best manner. Surely, your Lord knows very well who has gone astray from His path, and He knows very well the guided ones to the right path. [Nooruddin]

     
    Even if some of us disagree with others, the above principle should be followed at all times by a teacher, no matter how arrogant the audience is. Muhammad PBUH too prayed for his opponents because he foresaw a believer in each of them.


  24. Agree with Tariq’s two cents. No need to compromise quality just to satisfy a party that is not honest in its intent.


  25. QUOTE-I wish this Iqra TV program invites Dr. Zahid Aziz to get Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement point of view.UNQUOTE
    Please visit the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com to check out beliefs of both sects of ahmadiyya in the light of actual writings of Mirza Sb.


  26. @ahmadibeliefs:
     
    It is obvious some opponent of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib has created the website “ahmadibeliefs”. Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context. The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still be able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.
     
    On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes. This will save your and our time.  This will also show readers your willingness and honesty in understanding the quotes and learning. Thanks.
     


  27. Sure,
    Let us start with the 3rd quote on http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues.
    My understanding is same as per the website translation:
    I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
    I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
    (Braheen Ahmadiyya – Vol 5 127; Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 21, Page 127)
     
    Please correct the translation in the light of context.


  28. Anyone who reads the other verses of this beautiful and touching poem on that same page of the original book, will easily understand the meaning of these verses. See image of page here.

    In the translation of the first verse quoted here, two words have been omitted, namely: “my Beloved”. If you know who he is addressing, the meaning behind these words is obvious.

    Of course, those people will not be able to appreciate these verses who feel no need to express any humility and self-effacement before God because they are ruled by their own arrogance.


  29. @ahmadibeliefs:
     
    In every language of world, to produce quality literature writers and poets pen extreme forms of exaggeration. It could either be to show humility or grandiosity. Authors of Sufi (mysticism) literature, especially poets extensively use such figurative speeches. Bible tells us even Jesus (Hazrat Isa AS) also made use of such expressions. In the same poem a few verses after your quote, on the same page that Dr. Zahid Aziz has scanned, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib shows extreme grandiosity when he writes: You (Allah SWT) created Heaven, Moon and Sun for me (HMGA).
     
    Brother/ Sister Ahmadibelief, this poem is basically addressed to Sufis (mystics). If you read and think with a mind of a Sufi, you will be able to appreciate and enjoy it. (BTW: Sufis were also one of the target audiences of HMGA).


  30. So you mean to say the correct translation is:
     
    My Beloved! I am neither an earth-worm nor a human being.
    I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity.
    Please confirm.


  31. would “ahmadibeliefs” care to explain why the web site http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
    leaves out the two words mentioned by Dr. ZA in the translation. And also as the addresee of the poem is quite obvious, why does the web site give the title “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to humans”….when the humility being shown is to Allah. A mistake or a lie?


  32. I can confirm that this is the translation. This would mean that you or your sources from whom you copied it omitted the words “my Beloved”. Could you please let us know the reason for this omission?

    Moreover, do you agree with the following statements of the Quran:

    The statement of prophet Yusuf in 12:53 translated variously as “I am not free of sin, man’s soul is prone to evil” or “Nor do I absolve myself of blame: the human soul is certainly prone to evil”.

    The statement of prophet Yunus in 21:87 translated by most translators as “I have been a wrong-doer”. The word for wrong-doer here is zalim.


  33. What I understood from your answer is that the website made a mistake while translating. The website missed out the words “merey piyare”.  This could be a valid issue and website should correct it. However, you said that quotes were out of context – so what was out of context here?
    Moreover, the website made an error in the first line – but the second was accurate. Which I repeat:
    ہوں بشر کی جاے نفرت اور انسانوں کی عار
    I am the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity

    So we can close this issue by agreeing to the fact that the website omitted the words, “my Beloved” and Mirza Sb was a shame for humanity.


  34. As per your valuable suggestion the website has been corrected. The error is removed and the message that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity has been more clear now.
    For the 2nd quote, please comment, what did you find out of context at the only quote available on the link:
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
    Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya


  35. No, we certainly cannot close this issue by you just claiming to have corrected a “mistake”. You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context. You can upload the Urdu page immediately, and then you can gradually translate all the verses into English.

    If you are right in your view of Hazrat Mirza sahib, then surely it is to your advantage to quote as much from him as possible! The more you quote, the more you will prove him to be wrong!

    Also, you have not answered the points I raised from the Quran about what various prophets said. Is it perhaps because you are actually a Christian and not a Muslim? I can see that you have supported a certain Christian concept which is rejected by all Muslims. If you are a Christian, I cannot quote the Quran to you as an authority that you accept.


  36. @ahmadibeliefs:
     
    On your corrected website page you wrote:
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/moralvalues
    “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility” [of course you did not make it clear that this maximum possible humility shown by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib is towards Allah SWT].
     
    You have classified your misleading title as “Moral Values” of HMGA and his follower Ahmadis. I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”. Please explain?
    Please remember Allah SWT knows what is inside your heart and what you write. Thanks.


  37. @ahmadibeliefs

    The context is (from reading the full poem)that HMGA is showing humility to Allah. Quite clearly before the website was making a “mistake” by mistranslating as well as giving it a misleading title. If the website is honest it should, as suggested by Dr. ZA, translate and upload the full poem to fully establish context and also make it clear in the title that “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility to Allah”.


  38. Those words can also be referring to the widespread hatred against Hazrat Mirza sahib by people, and people being ashamed to be associated with him.

    Is he not the figure most hated by large sections of the Muslim community? Are not people so ashamed of being linked with him that many of them conceal any connection with him and many of them issue announcements saying that they and their fathers had no connection with him?

    Since our opponent drew our attention to this poem, I have been reading through it and have found it so deeply inspiring and moving that I recommend everyone to read it. It should be translated into English as well.


  39. @Rashid and ahmadibeliefs

    Actually the the whole website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com seems to be an attempt (a rather poor one though) to mislead the casual reader into understanding that this is some sort of an Ahmadi site as opposed to an anti- Ahmadi site that is actually is. This is evident from the site address, its title (“Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”) as well the use of a motto on every page usually associated with the Rabwah Jammat. Is this all a “mistake” as well? I think we can discuss this later, first ahmadibelief needs to clarify and correct the “mistake” made in the quote regarding humility and answer Dr. ZA’s question that if ahmadibelief is a believer in Quran as the true word of God?


  40. In the poem HMGA is thanking Allah for his favor bestowed to him. Despite given all the odds, and lack of his worldly resources, every accusation and hurdle, including malicious court cases, created by his opponents turned out in his favor. Even a plague that was considered curse and killed many turned out as a proof of his truthfulness. Unlike first 4 volumes of Barahin-I-Ahmadiyya, which were his initial books, volume 5 was published many years later, and in his poem HMGA mentioned events that took place in intervening period.


  41. QUOTE-You must make the whole page available on your website in order to show the context.-UNQUOTE
    Dear Brother,
    You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context. It is clear it was not out of context rather there was a mistranslation which is corrected.
    QUOTE-I fail to understand how you classify statement of Maximum Possible Humility as “Moral Value”-UNQUOTE
    Dear Rashid,
    Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.
     
    So please explain for the second quote now:
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
    Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
     
     


  42. “Out of context” means that the context is not provided. The context is what comes before and after. When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning? Please do answer this.

    Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”. No Muslim accepts that concept. Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam.


  43. @ahmadibeliefs:
    Your quote:
    “Dear Rashid,
    Being humble is one of the noble moral values. If you fail to understand please ask someone to explain to you.”
     
    Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?
    Thanks.
     
    @Dr. Zahid Aziz:
    “When anti-Islamic propagandists quote from the Quran “kill them wherever you find them”, the translation is perfectly correct. So do you think they are right in quoting it and giving it their own meaning?”
     
    The author of “ahmadibeliefs” website is NOT different than the Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders. Both have the similar approach i.e. to take quotes out of context and absolutely distort the message and create wrong impression, and still are able to claim this is what Holy Quran or HMGA books say.
     
    I think, with his approach “ahmadibeliefs” is giving his/her SUPPORT to efforts of Geert Wilders.

    Looking at point you brought up (“Therefore your “loveforall” page is an attack upon Islam and all Muslims. Please clarify that you are against Hazrat Mirza sahib because you are against Islam while he defended Islam”), I hope Muslim opponents of HMGA realize that “ahmadibeliefs” who pretends to be among their ranks has much higher sinister designs.


  44. ahmadibelief: I don’t see how it is clear the quote was in context. I think quite clearly it was out of context with a distorted meaning. Please remember you put the allegation first that this quote has some thing do with moral values. To establish this allegation you must provide context (Dr. ZA has explained what providing context means). After you have provided context we can see if your allegation holds wieght or not. Until then, this issue is not closed.


  45. Dear Zahid,
    QUOTE-“Out of context” means that the context is not provided.-UNQUOTE

    This is one of the most illogical arguments one could expect from you. By this logic, you can quote any excerpt – if you want to quote something of Mirza Sb – publish the whole book and ask people to read the whole book. We both agree that Mirza Sb was most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. We also agree this is a show of extreme humility. I am unsure, what is your objection.

    QUOTE-Regarding your second quote, you have stated on your webpage that you accept the Christian concept that the act of sex between husband and wife is “filthy”.-UNQUOTE
    I have never said that I accept the Christain concept, please don’t tell lies.
     
    Now please advise what is out of context on the quote:
     
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
    Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
     
    Dear Rashid,
    QUOTE-Then please explain to me why you consider HMGA’s statement of extreme humbleness, proving his humility to Allah is a NEGATIVE character value?-UNQUOTE
    Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?


  46. @ahmadibeliefs:
     
    Homepage of your website “ahmadibeliefs” says: “Anjuman for Propagation of Ahmadiyya Beliefs – Germany”.
     
    In reply to Dr. Zahid Aziz suggestion you wrote:

    “You are welcome to make a website and translate the whole poem made available on it. You put an allegation that the translation was out of context.”

    Doesn’t it behoove you to propagate the correct Ahmadi Beliefs, and not to mislead?
    And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?


  47. So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.

    Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage? Presumably this is a noble quality you would be looking for in a truthful person.

    I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)

    You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”. You seem highly reluctant to defend Islam.

    You have replied: “I have never said that I accept the Christian concept, please don’t tell lies.”

    On your “loveforall” page you have written:

    “This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”

    That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct (that’s why they have celibacy). It is on the basis of that Christian belief that you are judging and criticising Hazrat Mirza sahib’s statement. Islamic teachings regard sex between husband and wife as an act of purity and require everyone to live in the state in which they can carry out this act. It is this act that Hazrat Mirza sahib clearly mentions.


  48. QUOTE-And if in opinion of real Ahmadis your website is creating misunderstanding by posting quotes out of context, then are you not required to rectify it?-UNQUOTE

    Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am? How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?

    QUOTE-
    So your view is: (1) Hazrat Mirza sahib showed “extreme humility”, and (2) “Being humble is one of the noble moral values”.
    Why don’t you place this conclusion in these words on your webpage? -UNQUOTE

    This is exactly what is stated in the website. The title of the page says “MORAL VALUES” and the title of quotation says, “Hazrat Sb has shown the maximum possible humility”. It clearly means that being humble is moral value and Hazrat Sb was so humble that he said I am not a human being and not even an earth worm, actually I am the most hated organ of the human body and a shame for humanity.

    QUOTE-I never stated that if you quote anything from Hazrat Mirza sahib you must publish the whole book. I said: the whole page, and I made it conveniently accessible to you. All you need to do is create a link to it (http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/barahin-v5-p127.pdf)-UNQUOTE

    It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality. As far as putting the link is concerned, if you had the eyes to read you would have read that I have clearly mentioned the page number and name of the book. Everyone knows these books are available on the official ahmadi website and can download and read. Why should I give reference to your one pager. It is better to give the reference of full book which I have given.

    QUOTE-You never answered my point as to whether those anti-Islamic propagandists are right to quote the Quran as saying “kill them wherever you find them”.-UNQUOTE

    My area of research is “True Ahmadi Beliefs based on writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani” and I was never posed a question by any non-Muslim about this ayah. However, just to make you happy, yes, I don’t think it is right to quote something from any place out of context and give your own meanings. In this case we both agree on the meaning that Mirza Sb was not even an earth worm and he was a shame for humanity.

    QUOTE-That means you consider the Christian concept that sex is filthy even between husband and wife to be correct-UNQUOTE

    I thought you are a PhD, but it nowhere looks like that. I would request you to open your eyes and then read. I have written: “This is the status that Hazrat Sb has awarded to faith that an act of sex which is considered filthy by Christians has been upgraded to an extent that it becomes inseparable from love of God.”

    It simply means that Christians consider sex as a filthy act. Where did it says that I consider sex as a filthy act?

    Now please stop these futile efforts to avoid the question and tell me what is wrong on the page,
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
    Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya
     
    You guys said my website is wrong and out of context and you are there to help me to understand better. But instead of helping you are consistently beating about the bush.


  49. @ahmadibeliefs:
    Everyone can see through you that how eagerly you want to put on the side your first objection on HMGA based on quoting verse of his poem out of context. Now as your dishonesty is exposed you want to leave this objection, with out taking it to its logical conclusion i.e. by providing the complete page of poem; and your jumping to next objection.   If we let you do this, you will repeat the same attitude. If you’re honest and have fear of Allah (provided you are a Muslim) then provide the complete page as demanded by Dr. ZA and then you can move to next objection. Remember, Allah knows everyone’s intentions (including yours) and you will be answerable to Him one day.


  50. @ahmadibelief you said “Please refer from the website address under discussion where I said it is a negative character value. I say it one of the noble moral values that Mirza Sb claim he is not a human being not even an earth worm. Rather he is the most hated organ of human body and a shame for humanity. This is what you also agree is the translation. Where is the problem?”

    The translation is not the issue here any more. It is what the translation means and implies that is the issue. We feel the expression of humility shown by HMGA to Allah reflects positively on him. If you agree with this, then there is no problem. However if you have a problem with this particualr expression, then state it openly. Remember you put forward this quote to open the discussion, so obviously you have some problem with it; otherwise why bring it up. So instead of asking Rashid where the problem is; you should be stating the problem; failing which it will be logical to assume that you agree with us.


  51. 1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?

    2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.

    3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.

    4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”. By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.


  52. @ahmadibeliefs:
    Your: “Who is going to decide that you are true appreciator of Hazrat Sb or I am?”
     
    Since you are posting on Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement website, and LAM members holds belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century. So my question to you:
    Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?
     
    Your: “How can you claim that you are a true Ahmadi so I should make my website according to your desires?”
     
    What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?
     
    Your: “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context – the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality.”
     
    What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”)  – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?
     


  53. Dear Usman,
    I have collected the quotes of Mirza Sb to appreciate his true beliefs. I did not put this quote as an objection. If you may read up the post from Rashid; you will see that he put an objection on me:
    “Although the quotes, (although I have not checked their wordings against HMGA books) are from HMGA books (BTW some of them may Not be from his books) but they are out of context.”
    Further he offered me to select quotes and discuss:
    “On the other hand if you honestly seek to understand these quotes, then we can help you. But before we do that, you pick-up one quote at a time, and first tell us your understanding of that quote by reading few pages preceding and proceeding those quotes.”

    You guys offered to help and now you have all started to beat about the bush. Why should I put a reference to any link when I have given complete reference of book of Hazrat Sb.

    It is just like I ask to you copy paste complete Quran on your website. You will ask anyone can check the Quran we have given a reference to the verse and sura. But I will say no, you seem to be dishonest so please copy paste whole of Quran on this website.

    Then I will ask you copy paste 3 pages from Sahih Bukhari on your website and so on and on.
    Please stop these stupid tactics and come to the point.


  54. Dear Zahid,
    I would request you to be little logical. Every time you reply I am disappointed; I used to think that Lahoris are smarter than Qadianis.

    QUOTE-1. When we say that our religious leader possessed an excellent quality, it means that it becomes our goal to achieve the same quality as far as we can. Are you prepared to say that “the maximum possible humility” shown by Hazrat Mirza sahib is a goal you personally want to attain yourself and exhort others to attain it?-UNQUOTE
    I did not say Mirza Sb is my religious leader. I appreciate his work. He is your religious leader so you should repeat his wording that your are not even an earthworm and you are a shame for humanity.
    QUOTE-2. Since you are so keen to quote Hazrat Mirza sahib, what is hindering you from giving a link to the page that I mentioned, and telling your readers to read it for some further details.-UNQUOTE
    This is again a stupid request. I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.
    QUOTE-3. So defending Islam against its critics, which Hazrat Mirza sahib did (including defending it against the “kill them wherever you find them” misrepresentation), is not a part of your research about his writings, while his writings are full of this defence! A critic of Islam will say the same as what you have said here: that “we both agree” that this command is in the Quran.-UNQUOTE
    If we get to a quote where there is defence of Islam, we will discuss it there. For the moment we are discussing copulation of Ahamdis.
    QUOTE-4. Why have you at all mentioned on your webpage the Christian doctrine about sex being filthy? It is not relevant to the quotation from Hazrat Mirza sahib that you are discussing. He is nowhere discussing Christianity in that section. You are clearly alleging that it is a filthy thing (sex between husband and wife) which Hazrat Mirza sahib has “elevated”. UNQUOTE
    That was again pretty stupid. Here I am explaining to extremes; one Christians who consider a legitimate act of sex to be filthy and Hazrat Sb who gave this act of sex an exalted status. I cannot figure out where is the problem.

    QUOTE-By using the word the “copulation” in your title, you indicate that sex between husband and wife is no better than any immoral act of copulation. Your belief is totally against what all Muslim believe.-UNQUOTE
    How can the copulation between husband and wife be immoral. Maybe this is a Lahori concept I didn’t know. Please don’t put useless objections. My objection is why you used the word “belief” in this post. Why did not you use “faith”. Using the word “belief” means you are an enemy of Islam.

    For God sake, use some sense.


  55. December 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
    From ahmadibeliefs:

    QUOTE-Are you willing to at least state that you hold belief that HMGA was Mujjaddid of 14th Islamic Century?-UNQUOTE
    That was a totally irrelevant question. If I am posting at LAM site why is it necessary that I am a Lahori.

    QUOTE- 
    What you will answer if Dutch Parliamentarian producer of movie “Fitna” Mr. Geert Wilders asks you: How can you claim that you are a true Muslim and follower of Holy Quran (assuming you a Muslim) so I should make my movie “Fitna” according to your desires?-UNQUOTE
    I have not asked that Dutch to make a movie according to my desires. When I feel his movie has incorrect message – I will clarify him what I believe in and explain his error. You guys have not informed my error and want me to change me my website because you are the patron of writings of Hazrat Sb. Extremely stupid.

    QUOTE-What you will reply (assuming you are a Muslim who has utmost esteem for Holy Quran) if Geert Wilders says to you, “It is not necessary that one page will clarify the context (of verse: “kill them wherever you find them”)  – the context can only be clarified if all of the Quran is read in totality”?-UNQUOTE

    That was the most stupid. Yes, I will tell him that is correct answer. We should read Quran in totality and then understand the meaning.
    Why would Geert Wilders ask me or you anything.

    For God sake, don’t waste time in these stupid questions. My question to you if Mirza Masroor asks you that he is in love with Muhammad Ali Lahore, what will be your answer.

    My question to you if I tell you to change your name to Abdul Samad – what will be your answer.

    My question to you if Dr Zahid Aziz says he is vetrenary doctor, what will be your answer….


  56. Quote:

    the context can only be clarified if all the books are read in totality

    Unquote:

    So you have then read all the books “in totality” of Hazrat sb. from which the website quotes? Because otherwise by your own admission all the quotes are out of context! Please clarify.


  57. 1. You praised humility in Hazrat Mirza sahib, and moreover you have created an impression that you are actually a follower of Hazrat Mirza sahib and a representative of Ahmadi beliefs. This is why I asked why you don’t make that quality of humility your goal.

    Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.

    2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”

    Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?

    3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.

    4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.

    What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?


  58. QUOTE-Thanks for clarifying that he is not your religious leader. Please let us know which person of the past or present, if any, is your religious leader.-UNQUOTE

    This is another example of useless questions. My religious leader is not the topic of discussion. Topic of discussion is the errors and out of context translations on the website http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com. For the moment we are trying to discussing the concept of worship being same copulation of Ahmadis as discussed on:
    http://www.ahmadibeliefs.com/loveforall
    Hazrat Sb has explained how worship and copulation become the same in Ahmadiyya

    If you think the message is clear please confirm so we move to the 3rd quote. If you think there is any mistranslation please let me know so that we can discuss. For God sake, stop these stupid questions. My question to you is, which Mujaddid is best of all? Who is your favorite politician – how did that politician effected your religious ideas? Who is your favorite singer, how does that singer helps you in copulation?

    QUOTE-2. You say: “I have given the reference already; anyone can go and read one page, two pages or whole book.”
    Would you then place the above statement on your website, saying that you encourage people to look up the reference, which may be found on such-and-such a website?-UNQUOTE

    I have not made my website for dumb and stupid people. If someone does not know when page number and name of book is given it means in itself that you can check the reference for authenticity and full context. My demand to you is to put the basic concepts of English language 3 times on every page of your website so that people are clear how to read English.

    QUOTE-3. You don’t want to admit that the words “kill them wherever you find them” are being presented out of context by the opponents of Islam. This shows you are prepared to side with the opponents of Islam just out of spite for Hazrat Mirza sahib.-UNQUOTE

    I admit. Happy? Now please comment on copulation of Ahmadis.

    QUOTE-4. It is pointless to say that Hazrat Mirza sahib has gone to the opposite extreme to what Christianity teaches. Islam itself, on the topic of marriage and some other issues, teaches the opposite of Christianity. Assuming you are a Muslim, you should be concerned with whether he has gone to the opposite of Islam.-UNQUOTE

    I am not concerned that Mirza Sb has gone against opposite to Christianity. I am admiring a quality of Mirza Sb that look how a vast population of humanity considers copulation as filth. On the contrary Hazrat Sb has elevated this act of copulation to such a level that it has become equal to making love with God. Are you actually a doctor? Generally, the doctors are bit wiser.

    QUOTE-What do you think of the passages in the Quran and Bukhari which tell Muslims to remember God and to pray to him while they are (to use your term) “copulating”?-UNQUOTE

    Somehow, you look very confused. I have not put an objection on the fact that Hazrat Sb gave copulation such a high status that pious Ahmadis get confused if they had intercourse or offered prayers. It is you who is putting objection that I wrote something out of context. When I am not objecting on anything, why should I give clarification?
    I am actually very fascinated by the idea that Ahmadi men go the mosque and experience orgasm. This could be one reason that may attract young people to appreciate the works of Hazrat Mirza Sb.


  59. I am sure every reader will now have fully seen the repeated avoidance and stone-walling of any of my questions by “Ahmadi Beliefs”. His tactics have been thoroughly exposed.

    He has refused to let us know what his own beliefs are about the same topics that are under discussion. He hides his own religion since he knows that his objections and obscenities fall upon his own faith.

    In the last paragraph above he has mocked and abused us, while avoiding my question. (He himself offers to Muslims the prospect of 72 virgins in heaven, apart from an unlimited number of concubines in this life.)

    He is trying to have it both ways: both raise objections in an underhanded way and claim not to be raising objections, so that he can avoid discussion on the actual topics.

    This art of “black propaganda” is not new, and is employed by purveyors of falsehood who have been completely routed in arguments.

    As he is not letting the discussion proceed, I am not allowing any further posts by him. As a result, I also cannot publish any further comments by our esteemed contributors who have attempted to engage him, and I apologise to them with regret for not including some of their comments which are in the moderation queue.


  60. Here is a set of verses from that poem (containing the “humility” verse) depicting the feelings of Hazrat Mirza sahib about his opponents:

    Though by calling us kafir they went far distant from us,
    Yet still we are in mourning for them, grieving and sorrowing.

    We know that their hearts have become like stone,
    Yet from stone can flow the stream of faith.

    However hard their hearts may be we have not lost hope,
    The verse “despair not” keeps our hearts firm.

    Our daily occupation is to shed tears before the Lord of favours,
    Out of this river of tears will we bring forth at last a tree laden with fruit.

    (Ruhani Khaza’in, v. 21, p. 148)

    Poem


  61. Even a stone-hearted person cannot escape from the ecstasy in these verses. These couplets can only flow from a heart full of pristine love for Islam and Muhammad.  This excerpt succinctly describes the yearns of Muhammad as well.  I feel sorry for the intellectually blind who ignore this fountain of Divine love. It is they who are the losers, yet they know not.


  62. hello i would like to point out something to muslims who hate qadiani ahmadis by saying one thing you have been waiting for hundreds of years so where is your messiah who will come down form heaven. Where is he, you have been wiating for hundreds of years you might aswell give up. No prophet can descend down from heaven all prophets are humans and all humans follow the same rule each and everything on this earth will eventually die. so stop preaching to other muslims that ahmadis are wrong by pointing out sheer poetry which uses metaphorical language maybe you should watch programs on 787 sky box tv. then you will find out that you are the ones who are wrong.
    may Allah help you realise your errors.


  63. November 5th, 2013 at 7:54 am
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    Riaz Ahmed's Mubailiah Challenge to Ahmad Karim Shaikh and Akbar Chaudhry

    Host of TV Programs (on Iqra TV, Takbeer TV, and Message TV) Riaz Ahmed, who interviewed Akbar Chaudhry and Ahmad Karim Shaikh (http://www.ahmedi.org) has released You Tube Video and Challenged them to Mubailiah (prayer duel). Following is link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WEByWTpDvg

     


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