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February 23rd, 2010

Harbingers of winds of change…

Submitted by Rashid Jahangiri.


There is too much opposition to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in Pakistan, and because of Pakistanis in other Muslim countries to some extent. This opposition is basically due to political reasons. Starting from Ahraris of Anjuman-e-Ahrar, to Maududis of Jamat-I-Islami, 2nd constitutional amendment to 1973 Pakistani constitution, General Zia’s order XX…
This opposition is so much that even if Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement and Qadiani Jamaat join hands to reverse it, it is impossible. Only Allah can end opposition of HMGA in hearts and minds of Pakistanis and ill-informed Muslims. Allah informed HMGA in revelation:

‘Dunya mein aik nazier aaya, per dunya nay oos ko kabool na kia. Laikan Khuda issay kabool karay gha, aur baray zoorawar humloon say oos ki sachai zahir karay gha’
(A Warner came to the world, but world did not accept him. But Allah will accept him, and with very powerful attacks will manifest his truthfulness).

We witness this everyday in West European and North American countries, where Muslims are forced to adopt ways of HMGA if they want to propagate message of Islam.

In Pakistan occasionally we come across, in electronic and print media, statements where people question 2nd constitutional amendment. This change in attitude is because of global political situation that has forced Muslims to change their attitudes and search for peaceful solutions to religious issues. I’m sure these occasional pleasant draughts in Pakistan are harbingers of winds of change.

Dawn news article:
Secularism vs Islamism
By Iqbal Akhund
Monday, 22 Feb, 2010

38 Responses to “Harbingers of winds of change…”

  1. There are a number of similar articles etc exploring this theme.  The problem for Pakistan is two fold.  At the institutional level, a certain Mullah minority has its tentacles into various spheres and promotes its own agenda.  On the other hand, the general poplulation while not at present supportive of this agenda at an ideological level, do not have an ideological alternative to fall back on either. 


  2. Usman, you’re very right. The general population that you referred to needs our jamaat literature. They don’t have alternative understanding of issues on which they disagree with Mullah.  Unfortunately, there is so much disinformation about HMGA and LAM that this general population is not willing to take advantage of our jamaat literature. It is catch 22 for them. I think only solution is Allah’s ‘powerful attacks’. Which have already started. These ‘powerful attacks’ will weaken the Mullah, and general population will inadvertently fall on HMGA teachings.


  3. QADIYANIAT (so called Ahmediyyat ) is a non-genuine maneuvered ideology, invented by anti-Islam imperialist forces, aiming at shaking the very foundations of Islam. Qadiayanis are nothing but a gang of traitors, apostates and infidels, and yet many still accompany them out of confusion and lack of knowledge. The purpose of this site is to disclose the anti-Islamic character of these heretics and provide relevant information to those who need it. Needless to say that it is the primary religious duty of every Muslim to struggle against this evil.


  4. @ Muhammad Farhan – Below is a reply to each and every word and letter that you wrote in your post:
    ————————–

    QADIYANIAT (so called Ahmediyyat )
    – which one are you referring to? Qadiani/Rabawa jamaat or Lahori jamaat. What do you understand about their beliefs? Have you read any of their literature? Have you met anyone in person from either of these jamaats?

    is a non-genuine maneuvered ideology,
    – please give an example of genuine ideology e.g. Deobandi, Barelvi, Jamaat Islami, Shias, Taliban, etc…

    invented by anti-Islam imperialist forces,
    – please provide some details. What do you have to say about the funding of Jamaat Islami, Taliban etc. (some say it is CIA, some say it is RAW)

    aiming at shaking the very foundations of Islam.
    – Is it the Lahori Jamaat or the Ulemma of Pakistan shaking the very foundations of Islam by believing in arrival of a prophet after Muhammad PBUH. Of course I mean Jesus PBUH. Please educate us as to who is defying the Khatam-e-Nabuwat of Muhammad PBUH.

    Qadiayanis are nothing but a gang of traitors,
    – Last time I read, Qarardad-e-Pakistan of March 23rd 1940 was drafted by Zafarullah Khan, a Qadiani.

    apostates
    – Please define this term. I have personal knowledge that late Maulana Mufti Mahmood in 1974, defined in Pakistan National Assembly that apostate is someone who changes his religion. Essentially, every Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Jew who converts to Islam is then an apostate too.

    and infidels,
    – Please checkout Munir Commission Report of 1953, pages 215 & 218, every Muslim sect in Pakistan considers every other sect as infidel. Are you surprised?

    and yet many still accompany them out of confusion and lack of knowledge.
    – Aren’t these Lahoris blessed that they lack the knowledge of Taliban, Maudoodis and likes?

    The purpose of this site is to disclose the anti-Islamic character of these heretics and provide relevant information to those who need it.
    – You mentioned nothing new here. Looks like you are taking a page out of Munir Commision Report.

    Needless to say that it is the primary religious duty of every Muslim to struggle against this evil.
    – Maybe I can agree with this. Every Muslim should struggle against the evil of hatred and bigotry preached and practiced by Talibanism, Maudoodism and other similar.

    —————————

    The above is a classical example of fanaticism that is repeatedly admonished by Quran.

    Quran singles out the clergy for their pseudo piety and their exploitation of masses:

    9:34: O you who believe, surely many of the doctors of law and the monks eat away the property of men falsely, and hinder (them) from Allah’s way. And those who hoard up gold an silver and spend it not in Allah’s way — announce to them a painful chastisement,

    The malice of such manufactured hate utters can be recognized by their own speech:

    47:29. Do the people with diseased minds suppose that Allâh will never bring their malice to light?

    47:30. Indeed, if We so will We could show them to you so that you would know them by their appearance, yet you shall of course recognise them from the tenor of (their) speech. (Allâh knows their empty words as) He knows your (solid) deeds.

    As to blind followers of a dogma:

    67:22. Is he, who goes groveling on his face, better guided or he who walks upright on a straight and right path?

    We find striking similarities between the sectarian mud-slinging of Muslims and that of pre-Islamic religions:

    2:113. The Jews say, `The Christians have no valid ground whatsoever (for their belief),’ while the Christians assert, `The Jews have no valid ground (at all for their belief),’ while they both read the same Scripture. Exactly such (ill-founded) things say those who have no knowledge. But Allâh shall judge between them on the Day of Resurrection with regard to all that about which they had been disagreeing.

    2:114. And who can be more unjust than those who prohibit the name of Allâh from being extolled in (any of His) houses of worship and strive to ruin them. It was not proper for such, ever to enter these (places) except in fear and awe. For them is disgrace in this world, and there awaits them a severe punishment in the Hereafter. [Houses of worship refer to any place of worship including churches, synagogues, temples, mosques and others]

    And the sectarian vitriol uttered in the name of half-truths is addressed as:

    24:15. When you welcome slander on your tongues and utter with your mouths something of which you have no knowledge, thinking it is a light matter, know that in the Sight of Allah it is an awful thing. 

    [The Holy Quran – Allamah Nooruddin]


  5. @Muhamamd Farhan

    Since every single accusation in your post has been answered (using the Quran, Sunnah, Hadith and common sense) and discussed to death over the last 100 years; not sure what your point is by beating a dead horse.   However you may have success with non-Ahmadis who are not familiar with Ahmadiyyat and easily swayed by the anti-ahmadi falsehood.   Good luck in fulfilling  your “primary religious duty”. 

    However, if you want to seek the truth, feel free to ask.


  6. History is witness Allah has NOT let those empires and republics survive in their geographical boundaries that did not guarantee justice to their citizens, especially in matters of religion. Our memories are fresh with demise of the USSR. In its constitution injustice was done to country’s citizens in matters of religion. If I am not wrong same kind of injustice was in former Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, it is the case of Pakistan. In the top law of the “Land of the Pure” i.e. 1973 constitution of Pakistan, a grave injustice is done to reciters of Kalima-Shahada. And people like members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement are declared non-Muslim, who in fact collectively believe in letter and sprint of Khatam-e-Nabuwat, that Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH is The Last messenger of Allah SWT. Period. In the backdrop of historical facts, I think, Pakistan will have one of following two futures.
     
    1)      PAF Chief, Air Marshal (retired) Asghar Khan prediction about Pakistan comes true and it disintegrates into multiple pieces and it does not survive in its current geographical boundaries. If this happens then its current 1973 constitution and along with its 2nd amendment will die.
     
    2)      I pray 2nd scenario comes true. Under the pressure of global situation, good people in Pakistan unite, struggle, and succeed in ending injustice in Pakistan’s 1973 constitution on the name of Islam. If this happens only and only then Pakistan will survive and perhaps develop and prosper. I pray all readers of this post live long enough to witness it. Ameen.
     


  7. To elaborate further on what Rashid mentioned above:

    ———————————

    7: 33. Say, `Verily, My Lord has forbidden all (acts of) indecency, open and hidden,
    – alcoholism, drug use, decadence and debauchery, which are all (acts of) indecency, open and hidden, are a common place in upper-middle and upper classes of Pakistan. Anyone in touch with the elite in Pakistan will testify to this statement.

    and every (kind of) sin and aggression, which is never justifiable;
    – open any daily newspaper of Pakistan, listen to any panel discussion on Pakistani TV, it is all about every (kind of) sin and aggression that is pervasive in the fabric of the society.

    and (He forbids you also) to associate with Allâh that for which He has sent down no authority,
    – the current concept of Jihad that Mullahs associate with Allâh that for which He has sent down no authority and its reward of seventy virgins is a pervasive concept, else why would the suicide bombing be a common place.  No pulpit in any Mullah’s mosque speaks against it. On the contrary they endorse it. In historical comparison, Gibbon analyzes Fall of Roman Empire that Christianity had contributed to this, making the populace less interested in the worldly here-and-now and more willing to wait for the rewards of heaven.

    and to say concerning Allâh that which you do not know (that it is in fact said by Him).’
    – and in the name Allah, the Kalima-e-Shahada acceptors are declared non-Muslims in the core document of the nation i.e. its Constitution. Who else, but a Mullah comes to mind with –  say concerning Allâh that which you do not know (that it is in fact said by Him).’

    7: 34. For (the end of) every nation there is a term fixed, so that when their term comes, they cannot delay a single moment (to avoid it) nor can they get ahead (of it to escape from it).
    – the causes of fall of Roman Empire ranged from as simple as elite drinking on the average two liters of wine per day resulting in lead poisoning and invention of horse shoes by Germanic tribes to as complex as hedonistic life style, corruption of ruling class, inflation, budgetary mismanagement, rise of food prices, shrinkage of middle class, civil wars, influence of religion on intellectual decay, diminishing trade and commerce, deforestation, desertification of land from human activity, malaria etc. The irony is that we find similar parallels in current Pakistan. No matter what the cause, individually or collectively, For (the end of) every nation there is a term fixed.

    Now the big question is how to avoid such downward slide of a nation. As a Muslim nation, Pakistan will naturally look around and try to find answer in Quran. The answer that they will find is:

    7: 35. O Children of Adam! whenever there come to you Messengers from amongst yourselves relating to you My Messages, then whosoever (by accepting them) becomes secure against evil and amends, there shall remain no fear on them nor shall they grieve.
    – by implication, the era of Prophets ended with Muhammad. It’s the era of revivalists. The last known revivalist from amongst yourselves, who made such a claim and proved it by his life, literary works and speeches was Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Unless he is preaching a religion separate from Islam he deserves to be listened to, else instead of seeking help from Quran, the Muslims are rejecting the solutions from Quran.

    [The Holy Quran – Allamah Nooruddin]
     


  8. The Sultan Abdülhamid II, Emperor of the Ottomans
     
    Due to weaknesses in his personal life and injustice in reign, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Mujaddid of 14th Century, out of love for a Muslims monarch, pointed out his (Abdul Hamid II) faults and informed him if he corrects his mistakes, Allah will bless him and his subjects.
     
    Abdul Hamid II, instead of accepting, or ignoring a simple advice from a fellow Muslim brother, used his authority and state power, and at the highest level got a Fatwa issued by Grand Mufti of Ottman Empire. Fatwa declared HMGA (nauzubilah) a Kaffir. Abdul Hamid II committed injustice in the name of religion, by abusing his authority. Then like always, Ottoman Empire got disintegrated into multiple pieces. Its geographical boundaries could not remain intact. The Ottoman Emperor was no more there; Grand Mufti was no more there; Ottomon Empire law was no more there; and the Fatwa that officially declared HMGA a Kaffir (nauzubilah) was no more there.
     
    HMGA passed away in May 1908. And Wikipedia entry about Sultan Abdul Hamid II says:
    “He oversaw a period of decline in the power and extent of the Empire, ruling from 31 August 1876 until he was deposed on 27 April 1909. Abdülhamid II was the last Ottoman Sultan to rule with absolute power, and was succeeded by Mehmed V.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulhamid_II
     
    Allah’s laws repeat themselves. History repeats itself. I am convinced unless Pakistan’s 2nd constitutional amendment is reversed, Pakistan will face same future that was experienced by Ottoman Empire, USSR, and Yugoslavia in modern times.
    I pray Pakistanis realize it before it’s too late. Ameen.
     


  9. ==SULTAN ABDUL HAMID  OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE==
    Re-Rashid
    brother so according to u sultan Abdul hamid was a bad ruler but that is your understanding and predudice coz if u had studied history bit more carefully then u will relise that sultan Abdul Hamid  Han was considerd a great leader of the muslim ummah of the last centuary yes he may not been a perfect leader but then again he was a human and made few mistakes but he stood for islam and its intrests let me give u a example the Zionist leader Theodore Herzl appoached the sultan in 1901 he wanted to buy of Palestine from the Ottoman Khilafa but sultan Abdul Hamid replied  ”i will not give Palestine to u even a inch Palestine is not mine to give the ummah have shed blood for this holy land i would rather have my flesh cut open than give u Palestine” so could your Mujaddid Mirza have put it any  better and was not Mirza not fond of Queen Victoria and the British Raj he was shaking hands with the enemys of islam TRUE or FALSE ? so why do u think that sultan Abdul Hamid refused to accept Mirzas call to islam when he is the Caliph of islam and u qouted from the wikipedia so is that where u get your info from coz there are things in wikipedia which i found to be false and misleading


  10. March 7th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Turkey entered the First World War on the side of Germany. Were Germans Muslims? If they hadn’t entered the First World War they wouldn’t have been defeated and wouldn’t have lost Palestine.

    Please also let us know your opinion about the Saudi Arabians who rebelled against the Ottoman rule and sided with the British to defeat Turkey. The success of Zionism was a direct result of that. In our own times, the Saudis keep on siding with USA against other Muslim countries.

    When General Allenby conquered Jerusalem in 1917 for the British, he was leading Muslim troops of the British Indian army, largely Sunni.


  11. @Shahin,
     
    Brother, HMGA had love for Sultan Abdul Hamid II, Muslims only monarch of the time. But because Sultan’s personal moral corruption, HMGA was feeling pain. Moreover Sultan’s personal life was affecting his subjects, Ottoman Empire was declining in every aspect. This is the reason HMGA sent sultan a message. He received message from Allah SWT and he simply conveyed it to Sultan. Gist of HMGA message was: Allah SWT has informed me if you correct your ways, Allah will bless you and your reign.
     
    As far as your objection at HMGA’s public appreciation of Queen Victoria, for her grant of full freedom to Muslims to practice Islam freely and without any fear, an act, which you consider a “great sin”, in it HMGA was not alone. Unlike France, Switzerland and now Netherlands, Muslims in USA publically appreciate USA government to allow them to practice their religion, lifestyle, and dress code without any fear. And USA is at war with Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Eretria, Pakistan and next will be Iran and Syria and through Israel in Palestine. Are you going to call USA Muslims appreciation of their government a “great sin”?

    Check this link to see who else were guilty of appreciating Queen Victoria’s freedom of religion to Muslims:
     
    Brother Shahin, you wrote:
    “u quoted from the wikipedia so is that where u get your info from coz there are things in wikipedia which i found to be false and misleading”
     
    Are you going to make the same statement about articles on HMGA written by his opponents on Wikipedia and numerous other websites?


  12. March 8th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Shahin is about 110 years too late with this objection against Hazrat Mirza sahib. The same objection was made in 1897 in a newspaper, among other objections. Hazrat Mirza sahib replied to it, and the objector accepted his explanation and withdrew the objection.

    At this link, you can read the apology by the objector regarding various objections he had made (starting at p. 113). See page 114-115 for this particular objection (“2. You have said that the Turks would be destroyed and their Sultan would be killed ignominously,…”).

    His acceptance of Hazrat Mirza sahib’s explanation is on p. 116: “2. Concerning the Turks I was satisfied by the very same announcement of yours (about my submission of claim). All your criticism was necessary and appropriate.”

    Regarding what that explanation by Hazrat Mirza sahib was, see at this link the first three pages of his announcement in this connection. I have red-lined the more essential parts. For example he writes:

    “Let every sensible, good-natured Muslim who, out of his decency, is willing to accept the facts, listen with attention. I do not bear any malice against even the most ordinary and least of Muslims who recites the Kalima, let alone that I should bear malice against one under whose care tens of millions of the Ahl-i Qibla are living their lives, and in whose safe custody God has placed His holy houses. I did not discuss, nor do I discuss here, the personal condition of the Sultan or personal matters relating to him … I had written some things about the Turkish government as regards some of its decadent high officials and ministers…”


  13. re/ Zahid Aziz

    1. well the reason why Turkey enterd WWI they had no choice they either had to put up or shut up and the british were in no mood to take them as thier Allies coz they made a offer to sultan Abdul Hamid II to secularise the Ottoman constitution from islam but the sultan refused as a result in 1908 he was deposed by the Young Turks they then began what is called the modernisation of Turkey as the WWI bagan in 1914 the sultan Mehmed V sent telegram to London to confirm Turkey was neutral but the Young Turks had secretly signed a deal to back the Germans as a result they lost the WWI and their empire as the war came to a close in fall of 1918 the Allies decided to curve out all the Ottoman Khilafa into thier domain and yes some Arab tribes did back the British under T.E Lawrence but these fools later found out what they had fought for all along
    and today the we know what a terrible mistake they had made as Allah says in the Quran do not take Jews or Christians as your freinds or protecters

    2. as for Saudia arabia well the Saudi monarchy is given protected by the American and British intrest and in return for cheap petrol i think that says it all u need to know

    3. if Mirza sahib loved sultan Abdul Hamid II then why did he refused to accept him as a Mujaddid ?
    do u know why the sultan refused accept his call he asked him to accept him as a NEW prophet how could any one accept such a ludacrise claimant to prophethood after rasuALLAH thats why he was shunned stright away

    4. thanks for enlightenment but Mirza sahibs son Bashiruddin did give a FATWA saying anyone refusing Mirza sahib and his message they are KAFIR that includes all the sunni and shia muslims
    so what is your opinion on this matter ?


  14. re/Rashid
    fisrt of all brother Rashid i do not agree with the word Monarch u use constantly coz this can be quite misleading in islam there is no monarchy the Ottoman sultans were infact Caliphs of islam yes they may have been heredetry but they ruled with Allahs Sharia
    as for muslims living in other non islamic countries who practice their faith well it does not mean that i have to agree with what they do and practice or agree with their foriegn policy thats what democracy is all about as for Mirzas apreciation for Queen Victoria i did not say it was a SIN brother what i meant was why did Mirza support such a regime when they where commiting acts of genocide and massacares against other races let me give u a example when the Boer War broke out in 1899 Mirza openly supported the war and he even raised money and asked his followers to take part in this unholy war against the weak and the innocent why ?


  15. re/Zahid Aziz
    brother please dont confuse muslim rulers with islam yes they may have islamic names ect ect but they are not follwing islam correctly u qouted Saudai Arabia but the Saudia Monarch is not representing islam or its teachings infact they are the opposite they Gamble Drink & Fornicate they are even worst than the non muslims 

    as for the defeat of the Ottomans well u have study history carefully then judge for yourself there were some Arab tribes who sided with British under T.E Lawrence [Lawrence of Arabia] but not all Arabs were sided with the british and as a result these fools later found out at what cost they sided with the enemys of islam


  16. March 10th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I thank Shahin for confirming that the leaders of the general Muslims severely damaged and betrayed the interests of the Muslims by siding with the enemies of Islam. His comments show that what they did was far, far worse than what Shahin thinks Hazrat Mirza sahib did. Thank you again, Shahin.

    So what were Ahmadis doing at the time of the defeat of the Turkish empire and capture of Palestine by Western allies?

    Read the booklet Muslim Interests in Palestine about a public meeting in London in 1917. Go to page 14 to read what Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din said:

    “The other day we were assured by the Royal message, delivered through the Prime Minister of Great Britain and the Viceroy of India, that the inviolability of the Muslim shrines will be preserved. … Now, we know that Jerusalem and the Holy Places therein are sacred shrines to Muslims, so I cannot understand how the idea of Zionism can go with the promised inviolability of our sacred places.”

    Three years later, when the dissolution of the Ottoman khilafat was proposed by Western powers, Lahore Ahmadiyya leaders wrote and campaigned vigorously and vociferously against it. At this link, read Maulana Muhammad Ali’s article Khilafat in Islam in the April 1920 issue of The Islamic Review, p. 147-160. Read in particular pages 158-160:

    “The Khilafat must be maintained intact. In other words, a strong Turkish empire must be maintained with supremacy over Arabia.” (p. 158)

    “… to divest the Khilafat of the Holy Land now [i.e. Palestine inc. Jerusalem], against all principles of justice, would amount to the infliction of a deep wound on the religious feelings of the Muslims” (p. 160).

    Remember, Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din was speaking in a public hall in London. Maulana Muhammad Ali’s article was published in the Islamic Review in England. It was of course the Turks themselves who then abolished the Khilafat!

    3. The Holy Quran says that you cannot guide whom you love. The Holy Prophet loved Abu Talib, but Abu Talib refused to recite the Kalima on his death-bed!

    4. If you don’t know what my/our opinion is about Hazrat Mirza sahib’s son declaring other Muslims as kafir, then you are suffering from the height of ignorance, or are just pretending ignorance.


  17. @Shahin:
     
    Brother, Sultan is Arabic language word and Monarch is English language word. (Monarch = Sultan).
    Just because some one in authority, and has gun, calls his law a Shariah, does NOT mean it is Shariah. Remember, Sufi Muhammad in Swat and Mulla Omar in Afghanistan and Pakistani  Talibans called their law as “Shariah”. But 100s of millions of Muslims do NOT accept it as “Shariah”.
     
    Your: “why did Mirza support such a regime when they where commiting acts of genocide and massacares against other races let me give u a example when the Boer War broke out in 1899 Mirza openly supported the war and he even raised money and asked his followers to take part in this unholy war against the weak and the innocent why ?”
     
    First of all, there was NO CNN and Aljazeera in Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s time. So, HMGA did NOT know if there was any “genocide and massacres” as you said. This could very much be propaganda. Just the way there is huge propaganda that Turkey and Turkish Muslims committed “genocide and massacres” of Armenians.
     
    Secondly, HMGA did NOT support “genocide and massacres” of anyone including Boer people. USA Muslims do NOT support “genocide and massacres” by USA (this is what enemies of USA accuse of America doing), but still they are paying taxes that are used to provide military aid to Israel, which Israel uses to kill babies, women, children in Lebanon and Palestine. USA is itself at war with Muslims. And in USA wars, there are Muslim soldiers who fight and die killing Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would like to see your reference where HMGA has “supported” British rulers in India in their acts of “genocide and massacres”.
     
    In your post addressed to Dr. Zahid Aziz, you wrote:
    “Allah says in the Quran do not take Jews or Christians as your freinds or protecters”
     
    If I accept what you are saying, then please tell me why Holy Quran allows Muslims to marry Jews and Christians? Don’t you think closest form of friendship is relation between a husband and a wife? And are husband and wife are not suppose to protect each other even if one is Jew or Christian?


  18. March 10th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I thank Shahin for resolving another issue by his comment: “brother please dont confuse muslim rulers with islam yes they may have islamic names … they are even worst than the non muslims. ”

    So, according to Shahin and his anti-Ahmadiyya supporters, these rulers are not “real” (haqiqi) Muslims. The issue it resolves is this. When we, the Lahore Ahmadis, say that we regard other Muslims as Muslims, they retort against us: “But you don’t regard us as real Muslims”. This was also, I believe, raised against us in the 1974 Pakistan National Assembly hearings.

    Now we learn from Shahin that Muslim rulers of the above character (e.g. Z.A. Bhutto) are not real Muslims! So instead of accusing and trying to trap Lahore Ahmadis by asking about “real” Muslims, our accusers should obtain a fatwa from Shahin and co. about whether they are real Muslims.


  19. Understanding Islamic Revival In Its Proper Context
    By Yasser Latif Hamdani
     Pak Tea House blog has interesting write-up.
    http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/understanding-islamic-revival-in-its-proper-context/#comments
     
    Ikram’s comment:
    @YLH
     
    My 2 cents:
     
    1) “So for example, the Western civilization- as we know it today- has for evolved out of a Judaeo-Christian cultural norms and as it is secularized, it is enriched by other cultural strains but it remains manifestly a product of Judaeo-Christian evolution.”
     
    I would say the Western civilization-as we know it today- has evolved out of Judaeo-Christian-Islamic cultural norms. My reason:
     
    First state in USA to allow women to own property, conduct business and be financially independent is California. California law has its roots in Spanish Law. And Spain is first country to grant these rights to women in Europe. Spanish law has its roots in Islamic law brought by Moors.
     
    2) In last paragraph you wrote:
    “Islam’s on-going Lutheran Movement has not emerged from within the confines of Darul Ulooms and Jamias. This movement has come from the middle class – and for a time it will remain confused and shall be violent for a while as it is now- but ultimately it will reform the Muslim World and usher upon it an age of reason, enlightenment and I daresay modern secularism.”
     
    Since in your write-up you mentioned Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian “…Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian presented themselves as Mujadads and reformers…” I will quote him, according to him; it was his Ilham (revelation). Copied from Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement blog:
     
    ‘Dunya mein aik nazier aaya, per dunya nay oos ko kabool na kia. Laikan Khuda issay kabool karay gha, aur baray zoorawar humloon say oos ki sachai zahir karay gha’
     
    (A Warner came to the world, but world did not accept him. But Allah will accept him, and with very powerful attacks will manifest his truthfulness).
     
    So when I see that when even people like “Shaikh-ul-Islam” Dr. Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri issuing 600-page fatwa against violence and terrorism in name of Islam, it convinces me that may be this logical change is consequence of “Powerful Attacks” on Islam from within its own ranks. Ironically, it was the same rejection of armed Jihad for which Mirza was smeared by the general opinion.
     
    Ordinarily, the audience of Ghamdi seem to be moved by his plain logic and rationality, but to someone who has read Mirza Ghulam Ahmed and his lieutenants namely, Muhammad Ali and Khawaja Kamaluddin, Ghamdi clearly sounds the same except that he does not acknowledge these men by their name. But that is okay. Value of mail is in the letter, not the envelope.
     
     


  20. March 15th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    People like Shahin must think that we are extremely naive and will not be able to discover what their game is. He has submitted comments containing plain falsehood. He alleges that we (yes, we, the Lahore Ahmadis) are trying to hide that Mirza Mahmud Ahmad called other Muslims as kafir! This statement, and some of his other statements, are so bizarre and absurd that it is clear what he is trying to do is just to have his allegations published by us.

    These people believe that if you publish dirt, it will stick, no matter how false the allegations and how strongly they are disproved. When one reads the blatant falsehood these people knowingly write, one realises that the words used by Hazrat Mirza sahib against such vile opponents are perfectly applicable.

    An example of Shahin’s falsehood is that he has submitted a reply to Rashid’s point, as to why Muslims are allowed to marry Jewish and Christian women, saying: “if study carefully the islamic history then u will see that even the Sahabas who married woman of the Ahle Kitab later they had to divorce these woman, why ?”

    This is absolutely false.

    He also says: “u are suppose to teach them to learn about islam then they would accept islam in the end”.

    Again, it is absolutely false to say that their Muslim husbands are required to convert them to Islam. In fact, the husbands are required to give them freedom to practise their religion. That they may accept Islam is a different matter.

    These people can only get away with such total lies because they are anonymous. A known, identifiable anti-Ahmadiyya zealot would never dare say this because he would be rightly accused of perverting the teachings of Islam.


  21. A little off but relevant anecdote of how Islam gives freedom to relations and their religion:
     
    Safiyya [wife of Muhammad PBUH] died in 670 or 672, during the reign of Muawiyah, and was buried in the Jannat al-Baqi graveyard.  She left an estate of 100,000 dirhams in land and goods, one-third of which she bequeathed to her sister’s son, who followed Judaism. Her dwelling in Medina was bought by Muawiyya for 180,000 dirhams.
     


  22. Dr. ZA makes a very valid point here.  Similarly an individual hiding behind the id of “cranktahtskunk” makes some startling claims about the Quran’s position on certain matters on his blog.  Following his debate with OMLK, one sees that he is  taking clear positions against the Quranic teachings (even the interpretations of non-Ahmadi scholars like Maudoodi).  It is quite pathetic that these people have no shame in twisting the meaning of the Quran just to malign HMGA.


  23. March 16th, 2010 at 6:40 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Usman: One of Shahin’s startling claims is this:

    “and what about the Punjab holacoust that took place during Mirzas time did Mirza ever mention any of this in his 80+ books he wrote ? an estimate of about 10 million people died as a result”.

    When did this happen!

    Ikram: Regarding the Holy Prophet’s wife Safiyya, I included the following in my book Islam, Peace and Tolerance:

    Once Hazrat Hafsah derogatorily called her “daughter of a Jew”. When the Prophet heard of this, he said to Safiyya that she should have replied by saying:

    “How can you be better than me when my husband is Muhammad, my father is Aaron, and my uncle is Moses.” (Tirmidhi)

    The Holy Prophet then reprimanded Hafsa by telling her: “Fear God”. Hafsa was daughter of the highly-distinguished Umar, the second senior-most follower of the Prophet, and she belonged to the same tribe as the Holy Prophet. But the Prophet here indicates that while Hafsa was related to one prophet, Safiyya was not only his wife but had, in addition, the prophet Aaron as a father and the prophet Moses as a paternal uncle due to her Jewish descent. In Muslim belief she was connected to at least three prophets. This is the retort she should have given, the Holy Prophet advised her, to those proud Arabs who styled her as daughter of a Jew and boasted about themselves being from among the relatives of the Prophet himself.


  24. Dr Zahid Aziz mentioned above  – Again, it is absolutely false to say that their Muslim husbands are required to convert them to Islam. In fact, the husbands are required to give them freedom to practise their religion. That they may accept Islam is a different matter.

    Below is an example of the principle that Dr. Aziz emphasized:

    …Mr. Pickthall declared his faith in Islam in 1918, and has since taken a prominent part in Muslim activity in this country. During the period between the departure for India (owing to urgent reasons of health) of the Khwajâ Kamal-ud-Din in the early spring of 1919, and the arrival of the Khwaja’s assistant in the autumn of that year, Mr. Pickthall conducted the Friday Prayers and delivered the sermons at the London Muslim Prayer House; led the Eid Prayer and delivered the Sermon, and during the month of Ramadan in 1919 conducted the traveeh prayers at the London Prayer House, while throughout the whole period he was largely responsible for the editing of the Review. It is noteworthy that on his conversion to Islam, Mr. Pickthall, in the spirit of a true Muslim, refrained scrupulously from any thought of influencing his wife, and the fact that Mrs. Pickthall has now of her own free volition embraced the faith is but one of many indications of the modern trend of intelligent religious thought.” [emphasis added]

    [“Mr. Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall – Front Piece – Notes”, The Islamic Review, Vol . X, No. 2, January 1922, The Woking Muslim Mission and Literary Trust, The Shah Jehan Mosque, Woking, England]


  25. From Usman:

    Dr. ZA makes a very valid point here.  Similarly an individual hiding behind the id of “cranktahtskunk” makes some startling claims about the Quran’s position on certain matters on his blog.  Following his debate with OMLK, one sees that he is taking clear positions against the Quranic teachings (even the interpretations of non-Ahmadi scholars like Maudoodi).  It is quite pathetic that these people have no shame in twisting the meaning of the Quran just to malign HMGA.
     
    Usman,
     
    I standby with what I have written, I have asked some questions from your OMLK, he has not answered those questions since 11 Feb.
    Instead he has left these messages on my blog;
    CrankSkunk,

    1) Our discussion on the thread you opened is not progressing as my posts are being approved. Whats going on?

    2) Sorry the my last post should read as “my posts are NOT being approved.
    I posted this messages on the forum and I have asked for the assurances from the administrators that his posts are not blocked or he has no restrictions placed on his account.
    There are no restrictions on the forum; the posts are posted straight away not approved like your blog. He also had the opportunity to submit his answers on my blog, instead of complaint.
    He knows if he answers the questions; I will destroy his arguments and expose your cult even further. He has committed such huge own goals; he is actually destroying the arguments of Lahori’s by posting from the tafasirs of other commentators.
    I do not expect any of the Lahori’s followers of Mirza to follow up on it; because they are utterly incapable to defend Mirza on the vary subject they have separated from the others. It has been 2 years and none could defend Mirza on a topic which they have done research for 100+ years.
    We the Muslims need no other proof of the falsehood and extreme duplicity of the Lahoris. They are exactly like other Qadianis, but they are even worst kind of hypocrites.
    As for your and Zahid’s assertions because I am anonymous, so I can write what I want. These assertions are not only false but hilarious, you should ask Zahid, I have given him open challenge to debate with him in London in a face to face debate either in a hall or on a TV station.
    Zahid does not have the courage to publish my posts on this blog. I am sure he will delete this post too.
    Instead of making lofty claims, face the facts, come face to face against me, if you ever so wish. But I know cowards do not have courage to face knowledgeable people.
    It does not matter if you post this reply or not, I will post this reply on other forums to expose you. Challenge is open, if you have courage and think you got the knowledge accept it. I am ready and willing to face any of you, even your so-called scholars, or your Amir.
    Rashid Jehangiri visits Ahmedi.org and the cult forum on regular basis in other guises. He is very active on his protected patch, but never have the courage to face me on the forums, he runs like a coward on each and every occasion. It seems none of his followers are capable to defend him against me.
    Don’t even try to make the excuse that we Muslims have to show respect to Mirza. I have a very simple approach, I call spade a spade, therefore, Mirza has to be called a liar due to his numerous lies against the Holy Quran. Prove me wrong if you dare and clear the name of Mirza, in a face-to-face debate, this is an open challenge to any of his followers.
    We will find out very soon how knowledgeable are your so-called scholars and how knowledgeable was Mirza and how pious and religious was he.
    Put your money where your mouth is, stop talking rubbish and show the colour of your money to us Muslims.
     
     


  26. @Crankthatskunk

    “I have given him open challenge to debate with him in London in a face to face debate”
    How does one come face to face with some one who hides his true identity?  Why don’t u reveal who you are and then throw these challenges.

     I think any one who sees your blog and ur writings can figure out whats going on.  I have seen some anti-ahmadi sites, but yours would probably be the one that, for any intelligent individual, actually works in our favor due to the outlandish and anti-Islam nature of your claims.

    Also, from what I remember, you and other poster have been given ample opportunity to post on this blog.  In fact it can easily be seen that this blog freely allows all point of views.  It is only when certain posters, hiding behind psuedonyms, start getting personal and absuive instead of putting forward valid arguments (case in point ur use of the word “coward” and the phrase “stop talking rubbish”) that they are banned.  It is up to the blog admin, but I think if you remain civil and decent, your posts probably will be allowed.


  27. March 22nd, 2010 at 10:16 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    In reply to Mr Crank…

    We have faced the world’s leading anti-Ahmadiyya Ulama and Islamic legal experts during the court cases in Cape Town in the 1980s. Their fate is recorded in the history and judgments of those cases.

    Crank… by comparison is an absolute non-entity. If we defeat him, the anti-Ahmadiyya groups will say that Ahmadis only defeated an ignorant person. Some other Crank will then arise and say: I have better argument than the last Crank…

    Crank… should approach some leading anti-Ahmadiyya organisations, and ask to appear against us on their behalf. So if Crank… loses in debate against us, they stand to lose! If Crank… shows them his powerful arguments, I am sure they will agree to make him their representative in a debate and lay their names on the line.

    Crank… writes “We the Muslims need no other proof of …”. So he is already claiming to be a representative of the Muslim Umma as a whole! He should show some evidence that he is speaking for “We the Muslims”.

    As to a debate in London, Crank… can a hire a hall in London, invite Muslims and then make a webcast speech declaring that Hazrat Mirza sahib was wrong in his interpretation of  jihad, and that Crank… believes in a violent jihad and believes that Muslims under British rule should rebel against it by force of arms. We will view his speech and respond.


  28. Mr. crankthatskunk:

    Your post is full of contradictions:

    “I have asked some questions from your OMLK, he has not answered those questions since 11 Feb.”

    Last time I checked I was the last person to post; which was not approved for a long time.  Since the post was approved you have not responded to it.  So it is you has to respond now!

    “There are no restrictions on the forum; the posts are posted straight away not approved like your blog.”

    Misleading statements by you.  This is what the admin of the anti-ahmadi forum has to say: “OMLK’s posts go through moderation, but recently, the moderation queue has been checked several times a day. There have been no recent posts unmoderated. Not a single post from OMLK has been refused. Regardless, the moderation filter has been turned off for user OMLK, and there are currently zero posting restrictions on this user.”  

    This clealry shows that unlike your contention, the posts on the forum are moderated as a routine matter of policy and in fact my posts were being approved only after a long delay.  It is only now that the moderation filter has been turned off for me, after I started to ask question on the forum and your blog.

    “He also had the opportunity to submit his answers on my blog, instead of complaint.”

    Another sef-contradiction by you.  You yourself said on your blog that you will not display posts by me on ur blog regarding the debate on Surah Jinn (“No more messages would be displayed from you”).  In fact I was insisting to have the debate on your blog, so every one present there can see the falsehood of ur articles, but you refused (for totally understandable reasons!).  If you want to have the debate on ur blog, I would be delighted..just say so and retract your restriction on my posts on ur blog.


  29. “As to a debate in London, Crank… can a hire a hall in London, invite Muslims and then make a webcast speech declaring that Hazrat Mirza sahib was wrong in his interpretation of jihad, and that Crank… believes in a violent jihad and believes that Muslims under British rule should rebel against it by force of arms. We will view his speech and respond.”
     
    A couple of years ago, on our opponents website I wrote a small post and provided link to the English translation of HMGA’s book ‘Government Angrezi aur Jihad’ (The British Government and Jihad). Translation begins on page 9 of link.
     
    I challenged opponents, if they disagree with HMGA, they should post their comments and express boldly, their opposition of HMGA approach. Well no one stated s/he disagrees with HMGA. But I did get one remark that I still remember. One of our opponents wrote: You’re a wolf in sheep clothing. I won’t be surprised if same remark is made about Dr. Zahid Aziz.


  30. I’m sure people like Mr. Crank are deeply upset when they hear and read fellow Muslims, adopting HMGA approach for propagation of Islam, and issuing statement such as this one:

    “A neighborhood group recently issued a statement with mosque leaders calling for “peaceful and constructive” cooperation, while the mosque’s leadership agreed to temporarily shelve the plan for the minaret.”
     
    Path to Xenophobia Is Diverted by a Mosque’s Open Doors


  31. March 24th, 2010 at 6:38 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The above news from Germany sounds very much like Hazrat Mirza sahib’s offer to Hindus that in exchange for their showing of respect for the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Mirza sahib and his followers would abstain from eating beef. It is the giving up of something which is allowed, but is unessential, for the sake of getting people to respect Islam. In fasting Muslims learn to give up, under certain circumstances, something that is allowed.


  32. Zahid, your sidekick RJ started a new thread on Ahmedi.org; he pasted your comments from this blog in to the thread.

    I have responded to your comments and dare, I have written posts on your favorite topic, a topic which you are regularly bringing up in recent past. I have listed few questions for Mirza’s followers based on the writings of Mirza.

    I demand that you respond to my questions, you dared me, I, instead of waiting to record my thoughts in a Hall, immediately have written my responses on the forum. I have responded, million dollar question is do you have the courage to respond?

    http://ahmediorg.yuku.com/topic/2854/t/Dr-Zahid-Aziz-reply-to-Mr-Crank.html


  33. March 25th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    People can read your reply (the link is above in your comment) and come to their own conclusion. It is plainly a nonsense. If you were so effective against Ahmadis as you claim, your services would easily be taken up by some well-known anti-Ahmadiyya organisation or ulama, who would be willing to stake their reputation on your victory in a debate against Ahmadis. It seems they wouldn’t go anywhere near you!

    We have already answered all your questions in response to the leading anti-Ahmadiyya ulama.


  34. Zahid,
    If I am so ineffective, then why do you find it so difficult to refute my articles and firmly establish your beliefs? Surely, you have 100 years of practice, plenty of research to bank on, why oh why you cannot answer my questions on the use of the verses from Surah Al-Jin by Mirza? Show me where this issue has ever been tackle by your cult?
    The effectiveness of my work and its success is apparent from the fact that no one from your creed Lahori or Rabwah Qadiani could refute my evidence in over 3 years.
    I monitored your posts on your blog, you constantly claim and boost that Muslims are turning to the thinking of Mirza. In your last post which was pasted by RJ on Ahmedi.org you once again dared me to tackle the issue you think and hope against hope could put me in some kind of perceive trouble.
    Your sidekick is cursing everyone like an old hag on the forum. I have taken care of your favourite subject, shown you and RJ a glimpse of what I would do to the stupid writings of Mirza on your favourite topic. Would you use the same word “nonsense” for Mirza?
    I can only laugh at your ignorance and self-delusions. Why you assuming that I was not approach by some organisations?  Why you are assuming that I want to belong to an organisation? According to Islamic and Quranic teachings I have absolutely no requirement to join any organisation, or be part of a sect or a cult. I know Quran too well to worry ignorant comments from people like you.
    Your self-importance is quite evident in your writings, lets face it you are only mouth piece of an organisation whose numbers are not great. As for your material, I intend to destroy all the major arguments presented by your Anjumn in due course, once I have taken care of Mirza’s lies.
    I have not seen your answers, which are specific to the questions raised by me; your material does not clear Mirza from his lies; from the evidence presented in my Articles.

    At the start you were keen to prove that Mirza was a Muslim and his alleged services to Islam. I maintain that he was not a Muslim, he was a kaffir, a Mushrik; the problem for you is that I can prove it all, from the writings of Mirza and from the Holy Quran. You on the other hand have nothing to show to defend him apart from your self-importance and delusions based on some false sense of superiority. A kaffir cannot provide any services to Islam, let alone him fulfilling a rather baseless claim to have reformed Islam, he did not know the basic tenets and teachings of Islam. If you want you can try Qadiani’s favourite Mantra of a Kalima reciter, if you do, I have the answers and proofs ready for you. One of my articles is ready on this topic; I will be glad to finish it off as soon as possible and slap it on the faces of the Qadianis; your creed is very found of using this mantra. 
    It is rather astonishing that you have gone quite after beating the drums of Mirza’s approach to the British rule in India, claiming that Muslims are coming to his way of thinking; after daring me to record my presentations on this issue. You really think you can defend Mirza’s claims in his booklet on this topic?  
    In your smartness and cockiness you have increase the trouble for yourself; now apart from unable to answer the questions on his claim of given the knowledge of the unseen, you have burden yourself to prove that a Non-Prophet can cancel the commands of the Holy Quran, and also Mirza’s lies that it is mentioned in the Holy Quran that Maseeh-e-Maoud would cancel this command of the Holy the Quran. I am only talking about the troubles specific to the Lahoris; otherwise, there is a long list of the troubles facing you.
    Your excuse that you have answers these questions doesn’t wash with me, it is easy to write twisted articles and books, but it is another matter to face a knowledgeable Muslims who can show you the true face of Mirza based on his writings and Holy Quran.
    It is very strange that I have challenge you to clear Mirza from the grave charges I listed, with an offer that if you win I will never write against Mirza, and if you loose you declare him a liar and a fabricator, but you are still very reluctant, even though you claim you are a “true Muslim”. This reluctance is despite your repeated claims that when you defeat me someone else will take my place. Forget about someone else, do you seriously think you can defeat me? Try you must, and prove you must.


  35. March 26th, 2010 at 6:49 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The questions you are putting forward are repeats of  what has been answered repeatedly over the past 100 years.

    A simple test of your claim about the strength of your arguments is: Is any well known anti-Ahmadiyya Muslim leader or organisation willing to put its name to them? You don’t have to “join” any such organisation.

    “Why you are assuming that I want to belong to an organisation?…”
    So who is “We Muslims” and “We the Muslims” that you mentioned in your earlier post?

    “lets face it you are only mouth piece of an organisation whose numbers are not great”.

    In that case, why are you bothering with us? Why don’t you go and argue with the huge number of opponents of Islam in the world who are defaming the Quran and the Holy Prophet? And you yourself are only one in number!

    “At the start you were keen to prove that Mirza was a Muslim and his alleged services to Islam. I maintain that he was not a Muslim, he was a kafir, a Mushrik”

    And what basis do you have from the Quran for calling yourself a Muslim? You are anonymous and hiding your beliefs. It is definite that on the basis of your beliefs some Muslim or other could easily prove you to be “kafir and mushrik”.

    “it is another matter to face a knowledgeable Muslims …”

    We faced the top-most anti-Ahmadiyya Muslim leaders and scholars of the world in the Cape Town court cases from 1984 to 1988. They ran away and lost. You are nothing compared to them.


  36. Zahid;
     
    You keep writings useless and evasive excuses; you are losing your credibility.
     
    “The questions you are putting forward are repeats of what has been answered repeatedly over the past 100 years.”
     
    This is lame and a blanket excuse. Show me where your cult has answered;
     
    1- Questions on Mirza’s use of Verses from Surah Al-Jin that he was given the knowledge of the unseen, like Prophets.
     
    2- Question that a non-Prophet can change the commands of the Holy Quran.
     
    3- Mirza’s claim that it is mentioned in the Holy Quran that when Messih-e-Maoud appears, the Quranic command to strive in the cause of Allah SWT will be annulled by him.
     
    Instead of making excuses just show us the material; which has answered these specific questions, we will go from there.
     
    “A simple test of your claim about the strength of your arguments is: Is any well known anti-Ahmadiyya Muslim leader or organisation willing to put its name to them? You don’t have to “join” any such organisation.”

    You keep giving the proofs of  your cult mentality, I have already answered this question so do not waste my time by repeating it.
     
    My arguments and their relevance would still remain the same; attestation by someone wouldn’t change it. Secondly, I don’t need to get attestation from anyone, I have already given you an answer; I am not oblige to have the views or conformed to the views of any organisation, sect or a group. This is the beauty of Islam; these are the teachings of the Holy Quran.
     
    ““So who is “We Muslims” and “We the Muslims” that you mentioned in your earlier post?””
     
    I have already answered it, but it seems you find it very difficult to understand;

    1-    When Queen uses we, what does she mean? 2- Read Quran with open eyes and you will find the secondary use by me.
     
    “In that case, why are you bothering with us? Why don’t you go and argue with the huge number of opponents of Islam in the world who are defaming the Quran and the Holy Prophet? And you yourself are only one in number!”
     
    1- Once again you are showing your ignorance, without knowing much about me. How do you know I don’t shoulder my share of the burden? And how is it relevant in this discussion? You are using your cheap tactics again, move on, I will not let you play childish games.
     
    2- I am enough against you collectively. Don’t you have people with you? I have already said, assemble all your scholars, your masters, and show me no respite. Why are you waiting? Why don’t’ you accumulate all the resources on your disposal and just defeat me?
     
     
    “And what basis do you have from the Quran for calling yourself a Muslim? You are anonymous and hiding your beliefs. It is definite that on the basis of your beliefs some Muslim or other could easily prove you to be “kafir and mushrik”.
     
    1- I have the same basis from the Holy Quran to call myself Muslim; the basis on which I am calling Mirza a Kaffir and a Mushrik, why don’t you find out that basis by proving that Mirza was a Muslim?
     
    2-    I am not anonymous, I am known to whomever I wish to know me in personal capacity. My nick is quite famous now, many famous people have written with different names and nicks. Move on.

    3-    You are also repeatedly urged to find out who I am, know my name, see my face, test my knowledge and resolve, by accepting my challenge for a face to face debate. Don’t blame others for your inabilities and lack of courage.

    4-    When someone, declares me Kaffir and Mushrik I will take the issue with the person, whosoever it may be, I am surely not going to hide and use lame excuses repeatedly like you have done well over two years. What kind of follower are you that you are completely and utterly clueless how to defend shirk and Kuffar of Mirza against me?
    I have produced undeniable evidence of his lies against Allah SWT and the Holy Quran. Challenge is already thrown to his followers including you. It is you hiding your shame by repeatedly using fallacious excuses.
     
    Why you are mentioning others why don’t you start proving that I am Kaffir and mushrik; as you use the word definite?

    You are incapable of doing even the task you so proudly written is definite? Try to prove it; then see how I will respond to you.
     
    “We faced the top-most anti-Ahmadiyya Muslim leaders and scholars of the world in the Cape Town court cases from 1984 to 1988. They ran away and lost. You are nothing compared to them.”
     
    You keep repeating it over and over; show us;
     

    1-    Name of the People who you are repeatedly calling top-most leaders. Let the participants on these forums decide.

    2-    Show us what topics discussed in that case, what was the case about?

    3-    I repeat once again, take my “Butler test”; not the hilarious fudge you showed last time, then find out; how I am compare to them. Find out who is going to run. Why don’t you take me on?
     
    Zahid, let’s face it, you are gutless, you very well know I will destroy Mirza’s credibility and the basis of your cult. You will never ever take that chance, because you know I will fulfil my promise if you ever show foolishness to go to court of Law against someone like me. Do this and you will find out the bitter truth. I just laugh at your hypocrisy, lack of courage, and your capacity to make lame excuses.


  37. March 28th, 2010 at 7:25 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I will answer briefly Crankthatskunk’s main questions.

    From now on anything occurring in any exchange between him and me can be presented as evidence in the legal action that he seeks to institute against me.

    “just show us the material…”.

    1. For knowledge of the unseen from Surah Al-Jinn, see this link.

    2. A non-prophet cannot change a command of the Holy Quran. Of course, Crankthatskunk believes that a prophet, Jesus, will come and will change the command of the Quran to charge jizya on non-Muslims. (Maudoodi writes in his book Finality of Prophethood: “he will abolish the jizya on non-believers”. See this link under first point.)

    3. The said command of the Quran is conditional, as stated in the Quran itself. If the conditions don’t exist, it is against the Quran to follow the conditional command. For full details, as presented in a court of law in 1985, see this link.

    Crank… writes that he is using “We the Muslims” in the singular, as the Queen uses “we” for herself and also because “We” is used in the singular in the Quran.

    So Crank… is now himself claiming equality with the Queen while asking us to take his “butler” test”  about the Queen! Crank… is also claiming to be Allah since in the Quran it is mostly Allah Who uses “We” about Himself. 

    About the Cape Town case, he says: “You keep repeating it over and over; show us”

    Everything he has asked for about that case is published online starting at this link: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case/intro.htm

    See at this link the names of the top-most anti-Ahmadiyya experts in that case.

    The last-named expert, Mahmood Ahmad Ghazi, rose to even higher positions later, such as Minister of Religious Affairs in Pakistan.

    One case not enough? Then read at this link about the next one.

    Two cases not enough? Then read at this link about a much earlier case.


  38. Inni muheenu man araada ihaanatika..

    Please make sure it is about Allah’s appointee and not your egos.. God will decide who is right in due course.

    ws,


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