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April 4th, 2011

“Supernatural” and “Archeological” aspects of Islam

Submitted by Ikram.


One of the persons while debating on this blog has relied on and emphasized the necessity of “Supernatural” and “Archeological” aspects of Islam. It is unacceptable to him for Muhammad Ali to refute that Abraham was not thrown into fire and cites the following verses:

21:68 They said: Burn him, and help your gods, if you are going to do (anything).
21:69 We said: O fire, be coolness and peace for Abraham:
21:70 And they intended a plan against him, but We made them the greater losers.
21:71 And We delivered him and Lot (directing them) to the land which We had blessed for the nations.[Muhammad Ali]

Many a times the readers of Quran do not read the text of Quran and instead they gloss over and read their own fanciful minds. Any plain reader has to ask as to where in these verses is the actual exposure of Abraham (PBUH) to the flame? Clearly throwing of Abraham into fire is a “fill in the blanks” by some storyteller.

Seems that sources of information for such advocates are different from actual spoken words of Allah above. From secular point of view, does it even matter in today’s globalization where one is scrambling to make a livelihood, as to what happened to Abraham thousands of years ago?

One of Allah’s Laws regarding burns is that temperatures over 44 degrees Celsius can cause injury and major burns over mere 15% of body in adults can be fatal. Smoke inhalation injury has a separate mortality of its own alone. Lets not equate the seriousness of inferno setup by a king of the stature of Nimrod to that of a child-play for show-and-tell of flame swallower or fire-walker. Think for a moment, if Abraham (PBUH) had those “supernatural” (that some base their faith on) moments, would it not have been prudent that by the same “supernatural” acts of God he would have walked up to Nimrod and unseated him from his power once and for all and by one wave of hand converted the entire audience to Islam and saved the humanity? Why did he have to migrate/escape to Land of Canaan with his wife Sara and his relative Lot (PBUH) in a rag tag manner? Answer is simple, he was just a human, no different from Muhammad (PBUH) or you and me. Laws of medicine applied to him equally as to rest of humanity. He could not have survived a blazing fire if he were cast into it. Abraham had an Omnipotent God who by His design saved him, within the confines of His physical, moral and social laws.

There is similar fanciful thinking by some “archeological” minds about Jesus being born without a father:

3:47. She said, `My Lord! how can I and whence shall I have a child while no man has yet touched me (in conjugal relationship)?’ (The Lord) said, `Such are the ways of Allâh, He creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He simply commands it, “Be” and it comes to be.’

In this case Mary asks the obvious `My Lord! how can I and whence shall I have a child while no man has yet touched me (in conjugal relationship)?’ and God replies (The Lord) said, `Such are the ways of Allâh, He creates what He will. Superficial reader will jump to the conclusion that Mary conceived Jesus immediately and immaculately, whereas after this dialogue God without breaking His laws arranged a husband for her. So she conceived Jesus and word of Allah became true i.e. When He decrees a thing He simply commands it, “Be” and it comes to be.’ without breaking His Laws.

Just like Mary, Zachariah (PBUH) also had a child John (PBUH) perhaps by some medical treatment of the couple. Lets not forget given the short life expectancy of those times, anyone over thirty would considered himself old:

3:40. `Lord!’ he said, `How shall I have a son now that old age has already come upon me and my wife is barren?’ (The Lord) said, `Such are the ways of Allâh, He does what He will.’

Similarly, Jonah in belly of a fish for days has no mention in Quran:

37:142. Then (it came about that) a big fish took him in its mouth while he was reproaching (himself).
37:143. Had he not been of those who glorify (God)
37:144. He would have surely remained in its belly till the time people are raised up (after their death).
37:145. Then (it came to pass) that We cast him on a bare and wide tract of land and he was completely worn out and sick.

Clearly, if Jonah were not repentant, the fish would have swallowed him (which it did not) and he would have faced death i.e. He would have surely remained in its belly till the time people are raised up (after their death). From simple zoology, we know it takes only five minutes to die from lack of oxygen and any recovery will accompany permanent brain damage. And if swallowed, it takes couple of hours for protein bolus to clear the stomach and move to small intestine, a point of no return, and onwards to the other end. Days and that too in stomach is utter biological nonsense.

Another example is that of Adam and mankind:

23:12. We create a human being from an extract of clay;

It would be quite fanciful to imagine God making a human cast of clay and then breathing into him His spirit before Adam came to life. Isn’t it simple to think that from clay comes the plants, animals eat the plants, man then eats the salts in clay, the plants and animals to become and stay alive? Quran puts quite succinctly when it states We create a human being from an extract of clay. How true.

Now, going back to birth of Jesus, Quran is quite clear as to how he was born:

3:59. Verily, the case of Jesus is as the case of Adam in the sight of Allâh. He fashioned him out of dust, then He said to him,`Be’, and he came to be.

i.e. Jesus (PBUH) was born just like Adam (who is a template of mankind) from clay and by natural conception because both belong to mankind:

39:13. O mankind! We have created you out of a male and a female…

Maryam, mother of Jesus is mentioned by her name on numerous occasions in Quran because she has high status for her piety. As far as father of Jesus (i.e. Joseph) is concerned he is lumped up with general mention of fathers of the prophets:

6:83. … Abraham…
6:84. …Isaac and Jacob…Noah…David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron…
6:85. … Zachariah, John, Jesus and Elias…
6:86. …Ismâîl and Elisha and Jonah and Lot…
6:87. And (We exalted men) from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. We chose them and We guided them along the exact right path.

If we look at the above verses besides various other “supernatural” events in Quran, the proponents of “supernatural” and “archeological” Islam inevitably create contradictions in Quran. Then out of natural guilt to undo these contradictory understandings they invent theory of abrogation as a crutch. If it were left to such dead-hand scholarship Quran would had been ruined by now, but thankfully to Allah’s guardianship, the Book is well preserved:

15:9. Verily, it was We, We Ourself Who have revealed this Reminder (- the Qur’ân); and
it is We Who are, most certainly, its Guardian.

41:42. Falsehood cannot approach it (- the Qur’ân) neither from the front nor from
behind…

Now that text of Quran has been preserved forever under the Divine writ, what about the message of the text? How will it be preserved? For that under Islamic tradition, we have at least one revivalist i.e. Mujaddid for each century.

Quran is not a book of bedtime fairy tales or poetry to make one go into slumber. The morality and implications of such brief narrations in Quran and their contextualization is relevant in our lives. The FIRE of hate, anger, bigotry, arrogance, ignorance and deceit setup by Mullah’s and their followers will not touch the Message of the Mujaddid of 14th Century Hijrah. That’s Allah’s design. The God of Abraham and of this organization is alive and kicking. His law of compensation and retribution is as valid today as in the past. If He spoke to man then, He is not dumb today either. What this fire story tells us is that despite the risk of life, righteousness prevailed then, so will it today and tomorrow.

One has to self reflect in the verses about Abraham preceding the above quoted ones:

21:66. (Abraham) said, `Do you then worship, apart from Allâh, the things which can do no good to you, (who are their worshippers), nor can do harm to (those of) you (who are their destroyers).

21:67. `Shame on you and on the things you worship apart from Allâh! Will you not then make use of (your) understanding?’

Does one worship certain ideas and dogmas as internalized idols besides Allah i.e. the things which can do no good to you, (who are their worshippers), nor can do harm to (those of) you (who are their destroyers)? Rethink, Will you not then make use of (your) understanding?

The purpose of this blog is to clarify issues at hand and in the process the learning is mutual.

For the superficial readers of the Quran their dilemma is analogous to the following example. If a lay person is shown palm of a fanned out hand, all that he will see is a hand and its superficial features. And, if that person happens to be inclined towards “supernatural,” he will be construing about the palmistry lines and keep on imagining the “supernatural.” But, if you show the same hand to a surgeon, he will mentally see all the hidden anatomy i.e. muscles, arteries, veins, nerves, ligaments, joint capsule, bones etc. Why so? Answer is simple “Eyes see what the mind is trained for.” But is it the end of it? No. The layperson by careful study can equate and better the knowledge of that the surgeon. Lets not lose hope.

The school of thought that this web site nurtures sees Islam in “Natural” and “Contemporary” light conforming to Laws of Allah, both physical and moral and their mutual harmony rather than any contradiction.

20 Responses to ““Supernatural” and “Archeological” aspects of Islam”

  1. April 4th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Muhammad Asad’s comment on 21:69 is:

    ‘Nowhere does the Qur’an state that Abraham was actually, bodily thrown into the fire and miraculously kept alive in it: on the contrary, the phrase ”God saved him from the fire” occurring in 29:24 points, rather, to the fact of his not having been thrown into it. On the other hand, the many elaborate (and conflicting) stories with which the classical commentators have embroidered their interpretation of the above verse can invariably be traced hack to Talmudic legends and may, therefore, be disregarded. What the Qur’an gives us here, as well as in 29:24 and 37:97, is apparently an allegorical allusion to the fire of persecution, which Abraham had to suffer, and which, by dint of its intensity, was to become in his later life a source of spiritual strength and inner peace (salam). Regarding the deeper implications of the term salam, see note 29 on 5:16.’

    Abdullah Yusuf Ali says in his note:

    ‘Through all the fire of persecution and hatred Abraham remained unhurt.’


  2. at Mr. Ikram

    So…..what are we suppose to do with the classical interpretations of Islam?  Should we thrown them in the recycle bin?  Why did Muslims believe in the supernatural for so long?  And I am talking about the majority of Muslims.  Why is it that every religion has supernatural events that take place?  Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc etc. 

    Even your founder claimed that red drops appeared out of thin air.  You may put a different interpretation on it now, thats your own business, but your founder clearly thought that blood came out of mid air. 

    When I wrote about the archeological aspect of Islam I was pointing towards the old writings from the classical era.  If an archeologists invesitgated Islamic beliefs, he/she would examine the oldest writings and come to a conclusion in terms of what the beliefs of Muslims were.  He would also contend that since a few hundred years ago the Quran has been interpretted differently to fit the ideas of science. 

    You article is calling the oldest recorded beliefs of Islam as ridiculous and primitive.  What about all the Mufassirs who wrote that Ibrahim (as) was actually thrown into the fire?  Were they not guided by Allah? 

    How many times the phrase appear in the Quran to the effect that Allah knows best?  Esa bin Maryam’s (as) name is clearly mentioned in the Quran.  If he had a father, his name would have been different. In arab culture a name is used to identify.  There is only one Esa bin Maryam (as).  And the Quran is clear when it says that Esa (as) was created just like Adam (as). 

    And please add (as) after you mention a prophet of Allah.  Maybe the LAM doesnt think this is necessary. 


  3. April 4th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    “… since a few hundred years ago the Quran has been interpretted differently to fit the ideas of science.”

    Are those Muslims justified who have been interpreting the Quran differently since a few hundred years ago?


  4.  
    For Bilal – I have answered each and every word of yours as follows:
    ———
    So…..what are we suppose to do with the classical interpretations of Islam? Should we thrown them in the recycle bin?
     
    Scholars of every period do the best that they can do with a given body of knowledge, yet their approach is restricted by experience of their times. Take for example Vatican. Heliocentric views were part of body of belief of the Catholic Church. Then came Galileo, his research showed otherwise, but by decree of Church he had to retract what he said and spent his life in solitary confinement. But in the end “supernatural” and “archeological” aspects of that religion vaporized in the sun rays of science, the science that itself is made by God to begin with, except that the “Muffasirs” of old school Vatican had not yet discovered it. We have our parallels. Mullahs and Old School are trying their utmost persecution of this Jamaat (organization) similar to what Vatican did to Galileo. If you are too young, then ask the senior members of your advisory panel, they will tell you all about the fatwas of Apollo 11 moon landing. You will get a laugh.
     
    As to what to do with the your interpretations, ask the Catholics. They will tell you what to do. But if you read Quran then focus on the moral principle and parallels in the following verses and you will find your answer:
     
    43:21. Have We given them a Scripture before this (Qur’ân) so that they are thereby adducing an argument (in support of their conjectures)?
     
    43:22. Nay, but they go on saying, `We have found our forefathers on a certain course, and we (while walking) in their footsteps, are following the right course (of true guidance).
     
    43:23. It has always been the case, We never sent any Warner to any township before you but its insolent leaders and well-to-do persons said, `We have found our forefathers on a certain course and we are the followers in their footsteps (to the right direction).’
     
    43:24. (Thereupon the Warner to them) said, `(Would you still follow the wrong course in their footsteps) even though I bring a (teaching giving) better guidance than that on which you found your fathers.’ They said, `We are disbelievers altogether (in the teaching) with which you are sent.’
     
    ———
    Why did Muslims believe in the supernatural for so long? And I am talking about the majority of Muslims. Why is it that every religion has supernatural events that take place? Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc etc.
     
    Again, if you read Quran, then focus on second Surah Baqarah – The Cow. You will see a detailed case study of decay of a religion with example of Judaism. Keep in mind that Moses (PBUH) was a Muslim prophet and he brought Islam. But with passage of time and despite numerous prophets it decayed into Judaism by the time of the advent of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Time difference between Moses (PBUH) and Muhammad (PBUH) is about 1500+ years. Same thing happened to Islam of Jesus (PBUH) which decayed in less than 600 years into Christianity, similarly for Krishna, Buddha, Confucius (PBU them) etc. Now self reflect, our Islam is 1500 years moved away from Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Aren’t we in decay???
     
    Classical signs of decay of a religion are when its soul is lost in senseless rituals, priest class becomes symbol of pseudo piety, religion is based upon, defended and debated in old nonsensical classical tradition, metaphor is taken as literal. With this in mind, please re-read Surah Baqarah and for a brief moment replace the word “Jews” with “Muslims”, you might get goose bumps from the similarities between the two. (Oh Allah, forgive us Muslims, Amen.)
     
    ———
    Even your founder claimed that red drops appeared out of thin air. You may put a different interpretation on it now, thats your own business, but your founder clearly thought that blood came out of mid air.
     
    Our founder had his own personal experiences that are for his personal consumption. No one belongs in this organization because of the founder’s such experience. We leave it there. Additionally, he believed in immaculate conception of Jesus (PBUH), which this organization does not so. What does it tell us? The founder emphasized freedom of thought and research. Each member is a Muslim for themselves. One seeks goodness wherever it can be sought from.
     
    ———
    When I wrote about the archeological aspect of Islam I was pointing towards the old writings from the classical era. If an archeologists invesitgated Islamic beliefs, he/she would examine the oldest writings and come to a conclusion in terms of what the beliefs of Muslims were. He would also contend that since a few hundred years ago the Quran has been interpretted differently to fit the ideas of science.
     
    You got it backwards. Please read the following verses and tell me if are they for science or religious polemics? Actually Quran commands mankind to seek knowledge (not polemics), because science expands Quran, whereas the old school confines and limits it to verbiage:
     
    18:109. Say, `If every ocean became ink for (recording) the words and creation of my Lord, surely, the oceans would be spent up before the words and creation of my Lord came to an end, even if we brought to add (therewith) as many more (oceans).
     
    31:27. And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea with seven more seas added to it (were ink), the words of Allah would not be exhausted. Surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
     
    Quran on the other hand shuns polemics:
     
    5:101 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Do not ask unnecessary details of things (as the Israelites asked of Moses about the cow 2:68.) This attitude may bring unpleasant consequences for you. But if you ask them as the Qur’an is being revealed, the minor details of Ordinances might be given which will be hard for you to follow. God has pardoned you in this respect, for God is Forgiving, Clement. [The general rule has been given that all pure and good things are permissible for you. Your questions are very clearly answered in the Qur’an 5:15, 15:1, 22:40. The Qur’an is for all times, and while the basic laws and Principles remain immutable, minor details are intended to be flexible according to temporal and spatial requirements 11:1. This Day I have perfected your law for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the way of Life 5:3.](Shabbir Ahmed)
     
    ———
    You article is calling the oldest recorded beliefs of Islam as ridiculous and primitive. What about all the Mufassirs who wrote that Ibrahim (as) was actually thrown into the fire? Were they not guided by Allah?
     
    Whether the previous Mufassirs were guided by Allah or not, only Allah knows. But, what makes you deny Allah’s guidance to the contemporary Mufassirs? Aren’t they Muslims? Don’t they fear Allah? Don’t seek His guidance?
     
    ———
    How many times the phrase appear in the Quran to the effect that Allah knows best? Esa bin Maryam’s (as) name is clearly mentioned in the Quran. If he had a father, his name would have been different. In arab culture a name is used to identify.
     
    FYI: In Arab culture, the prominent parent is given importance. Ask any Arab friend, not a Punjabi (and that too not Pakistani Mullahs who have even given up their own culture in the name of pseudo piety).
     
    ———
    There is only one Esa bin Maryam (as). And the Quran is clear when it says that Esa (as) was created just like Adam (as).
     
    No where Quran states that Adam was the first human. It makes more sense to read Adam as a template of every man and a woman, their creation, sinful acts, loss of paradise, repentance, divine guidance and reclaim of paradise (both in this world and promise of hereafter). Interestingly, there is no mention of Eve either.
     
    ———
    And please add (as) after you mention a prophet of Allah. Maybe the LAM doesnt think this is necessary.
     
    I speak and write for myself. There is no Mullah hierarchy in this organization. All errors and omissions are mine. LAM provides only a platform to express opinions, you included. For English readers I have used the salutation of PBUH (peace be upon him) which is equivalent of “as” (Alay-e-Salam). I missed a few. I should be more careful. Thanks for reminding.


  5. April 5th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
    From Mohammed Iqbal:

    @Bilal,
    It is not a part of an archeologists’ work to investigate religious beliefs.


  6. at Mr. Aziz

    And in about 200 additional years the Quran will again be re-interpretted to fit the new ideas of science technology.  When will it stop???  Why not cling to the interpretations from the earliest time?  Isnt that what socialogists do?  What about anthropologists?  What about the great archeologists scholar Zahi Hawass of Egypt? 

    Just because the science doesnt currently exist that can prove that fire can be cooled though some type of supernatural process, doesnt mean that it cant happen. 

    Dont you believe that angels magically and supernaturally appeared to Muhamad (saw)???  Where did they come from???  Remember, angels are called messengers of Allah.  They brought a message from somewhere.  Are they from a different dimension?  Can Allah rip through space-time??? 
    Grow up guys…we have only scratched the surface of science.  We have no idea what the rules of the universe are.  Explain to me how a cell phone compresses voice and then sends it to the heavens to a satellite in less than a second?  Dont you know that humans are made of light particles??  Dont you think that in the future we will be teleporting back and forth? 


  7. @ Ikram

    1.  Are you claiming that your founder didnt experience a supernatural event with the red drops?  Thats amazing.  What did Muhammad Ali have to say on the matter.  That would be an interesting read. 

    2.  Do you even know the history of the ‘birth of Esa (as) theory in ahmadiyya thought??? 

    It wasnt until 1903, that was when MGAQ finally gave a ruling on the matter.  Zafrullah Khan writes about it.  He also writes that Noorudin confessed that he was wrong and changed his belief on the matter. 

    This theory of the LAM proves that they were only in business to sell Muhammad Ali’s Qurans.  They really dont care what their messiah said or did.  After 1903 did Noorudin revert to his old beleifs?  I think not.  Show me the evidence. 

    You only deny the supernatural because the science doesnt exist yet to explain these events.  During the time of your founder flight to the moon was thought to be impossible. 

    You should show some respect to the prophets (as) of Allah.  Maybe the Lam is liberable in their overall approach to religion, which is the impression that I am getting.

    So…back when Arabic was like the english of today, you are telling me that those arabs had it all wrong.  What a theory!!!!  Next thing that you are gonna tell me is that the British govt were a blessing to mankind…oh wait, your founder said that.   


  8. April 5th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    As usual Bilal Roberts avoided my question which was:

    “Are those Muslims justified who have been interpreting the Quran differently since a few hundred years ago?”

    This is because he would have to condemn other Muslims who write about the Quran agreeing with modern science. And Bilal cannot afford to condemn other Muslims!

    What respect have you shown to the prophets of Allah by saying that only Jesus remained free of the touch of Satan at birth!


  9. Are they justified???  Interesting question.  I would have to read ALL the recent Tafsirs and compare and contrast.  That would take months of research.  I know that Ahmadiyyat is a clear denial of ALL supernatural events…with many exceptions that are contradictory to the psychology of an Ahmadi, like the red drops. 

    I didnt say that Esa (as) was free from the touch of satan.  Muhammad (saw) said it.  I only support what Muhammad (saw) said.  Maybe there is some scientific explanation that we havent discovered yet???

    Dont you believe that angels were present during the battle of Badr?  Where did they come from?  Dont you believe that Allah knows are innermost thoughts?  How is that possible??  What is jinn?  Could Jinn be aliens??  Do you deny the existence of other intelligent beings in the universe? 

    Ahmadiyya thought is not consistent.  Thats my point!  Who called this hadith as stated above as a fabrication in the last 1400 years?  Please educate me? 


  10. Enemies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad demanded for supernatural events to unfold right before their very eyes to include that not only should the Holy Prophet Muhammad physically ascend to heaven and bring them back a book to read but that even God and the angels should come face to face with them before they would believe! But to all these demands, the Holy Prophet was commanded to say: Glory be to my Lord! I am anything but a mortal messenger? (Qur’an 17:90-93). 

    Bilal Roberts, do you support what the Holy Prophet Muhammad said in response to these demands?


  11.  
    Bilal: once again word for word reply to your statements, questions and hate
    ———
    And in about 200 additional years the Quran will again be re-interpretted to fit the new ideas of science technology.
    Why not? By then we will have new Mujaddids who will shed light on contemporary issues and needs of the time.
    ———
    When will it stop???
    Why should it stop?
    ———
    Why not cling to the interpretations from the earliest time?
    Please feel free to do so.
    ———
    Isnt that what socialogists do?
    No, this is not what sociologist do. They find the social causes of fall of Roman Empire. They should look into decay of Muslim Empire, Muslim Ideology as so on.
    ———
    What about anthropologists?
    Anthropologists study human behavior and its decay.
    ———
    What about the great archeologists scholar Zahi Hawass of Egypt?
    What about him? Please quote some of his work.
    ———
    Just because the science doesnt currently exist that can prove that fire can be cooled though some type of supernatural process, doesnt mean that it cant happen.
    Have you graduated high school yet? Where are you coming from? Even the Madrassas have more science in their curriculum than the one you reflect.
    ———
    Dont you believe that angels magically and supernaturally appeared to Muhamad (saw)??? Where did they come from??? Remember, angels are called messengers of Allah. They brought a message from somewhere. Are they from a different dimension? Can Allah rip through space-time???
    You apparently are master of “supernatural” why don’t you enlighten us all? For extra flavor throw in some jinn sprinkles as well.
    ———
    Grow up guys…we have only scratched the surface of science. We have no idea what the rules of the universe are.
    Are you speaking about yourself?
    ———
    Explain to me how a cell phone compresses voice and then sends it to the heavens to a satellite in less than a second?
    Once you graduate high school then we can talk of lossy compression algorithms, fast fourier transforms, reed-solomon error correction coding. But you need diploma first before we go any further.
    ———
    Dont you know that humans are made of light particles??
    Yes may be from string theory, but not by your “supernatural” and “archeological” Noor!
    ———
    Dont you think that in the future we will be teleporting back and forth?
    I will pay for your fare. You might be surprised to see that Abraham(PUBH) was no fire-walker.
    ———
    1. Are you claiming that your founder didnt experience a supernatural event with the red drops? Thats amazing. What did Muhammad Ali have to say on the matter. That would be an interesting read.
    On one hand you believe in Abraham (PBUH) walking out of an inferno alive, while on the other hand you ridicule the above event. You contradict yourself. You have one set of rules for yourself and another for others. This is what Quran states about double standards such as yours:
     
    23:1. Woe be to those who make a default in any of their duties and give short measure.
    23:2. When they receive measure from other people they receive in full (not allowing the least shortage and loss),
    23:3. But when they give by measure to others or weigh to them they give them less (than what is due).
    23:4. Do not such people realize that they will be raised (to life again),
    23:5. To face (and hear the Judgment of) that Great Day?
    ———
    2. Do you even know the history of the ‘birth of Esa (as) theory in ahmadiyya thought???
    Do I have to know any thought but Quran?
    ———
    It wasnt until 1903, that was when MGAQ finally gave a ruling on the matter. Zafrullah Khan writes about it. He also writes that Noorudin confessed that he was wrong and changed his belief on the matter.
    This theory of the LAM proves that they were only in business to sell Muhammad Ali’s Qurans. They really dont care what their messiah said or did. After 1903 did Noorudin revert to his old beleifs? I think not. Show me the evidence.
    Please let go of he-said, she-said. What do you have to say about your faith? Someone said quite wisely – great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events and low minds discuss people. Which one are you? You do not even have to answer, we all know.
    ———
    You only deny the supernatural because the science doesnt exist yet to explain these events. During the time of your founder flight to the moon was thought to be impossible.
    See similar answers above.
    ———
    You should show some respect to the prophets (as) of Allah. Maybe the Lam is liberable in their overall approach to religion, which is the impression that I am getting.
    No wonder others have repeatedly emphasized you being a liar. Unlike degrading all the Holy Prophets by smearing them with mythologies like you, LAM respects them in letter and spirit by defending their human-ness, their accomplishments that can be repeated in our times, like Abraham (PBUH) going to the world leader and kings and inviting them to Islam. Defending the finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) without any apologies, without any ifs, ands or buts. Hello, give us a sampler of your respect, which is obviously no more but talk, and talk is cheap.
    ———
    So…back when Arabic was like the english of today, you are telling me that those arabs had it all wrong.
    Your respect of Islamic philosophers/scholars is no more than a lip service. Why ask us, its your question to yourself. You answer it. But this much I can tell you that Arabs translated Greek and Roman works, which includes that of Plato (student of Socrates (PBUH), and teacher of Aristotle). The following is a pertinent quote:
     
    “Whenever any skeptic or bigot claims to be heard on the question of intellect and morals, we ask if he is familiar with the books of Plato, where all his pert objections have once for all been disposed of. If not, he has no right to our time. Let him go and find himself answered there.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
    ———
    What a theory!!!! Next thing that you are gonna tell me is that the British govt were a blessing to mankind…oh wait, your founder said that.
    Prove your point to the contrary. You have the microphone.
    ———
    Bilal, I leave you with:
    “How it infuriates a bigot, when he is forced to drag out his dark convictions!” – Logan Pearsall Smith


  12. @ Ikram

    You didnt even answer my questions. 

    1.  Why did MGAQ issue a fatwa on the birth of Esa (as) in 1903?  Why did he wait sooo long?  He waited 12 years.  Why doesnt the LAM follow the fatwa of MGAQ?  Didnt Noorudin change his views in 1903? 

    I talk about all things, people, events and ideas.  I discuss and think about all 3.  I am well schooled in Ahmadiyya psychology mate.  I know more than you can imagine. 

    You appear to be a liberal, you want Islam to have boundaries in terms of science.  Science has no boundaries!!!!!!  The speed of light is a starting point, not a boundary.  You put boundaries on Allah. 


  13. April 7th, 2011 at 6:07 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Bilal says: “I know more than you can imagine.” Allah says in ayat-ul-kursi: Humans cannot encompass any of His knowledge except as He pleases. Bilal says we cannot encompass any of Bilal’s knowledge except as he pleases to let us have a glimpse of it!

    Maulana Nur-ud-Din wrote a book entitled Nur-ud-Din in refutation of the arguments of a Muslim who had become an Arya and published a book Tark-i Islam, raising a large number of objections against the Quran which were the reasons for his leaving Islam.

    Question: Why did Maulana Nur-ud-Din write this book to defend Islam and the Quran if he himself is a non-Muslim who is against Islam (as Bilal Roberts alleges about us)?

    One reason for leaving Islam (no. 74) given by the apostate was that Islam teaches that a woman can become pregnant without a man, as happened in case of the birth of Jesus.

    The Maulana replied:

    “i. The Islam taught to us by that Divine Scripture, the Holy Quran, does not say anywhere that to become a Muslim you need to believe that Jesus had no father.
    “ii. The Holy Prophet has not told us that a part of Islam is to believe that Jesus had no father.
    “iii. Our beloved holy Companions, our four leaders of jurisprudence, and other great Imams, have nowhere instructed us that it is necessary to believe that Jesus was born without a father.
    “iv. Our respected Sufi saints have not exhorted us anywhere in their teachings that to attain the ranks of Divine nearness, to accomplish self-reform, and to acquire noble morals, it is necessary to believe that Jesus had no father.
    “v. Besides Jesus, how many prophets, messengers and appointed ones of Allah, have there been! Is the genealogy of any one of them recorded in the Holy Quran? In fact, Allah says, ‘None knows the hosts of thy Lord, save He’. So it is not necessary to know of the existence of everyone, let alone how they were born.
     
    “Then in the Christian religion, the birth of Jesus without a father is not an evidence of his Divinity, because they believe that Melchizedek and Adam were also born without a father. Again, this teaching is not a part of Islam, so how did this teaching make you leave Islam? This is one of those issues which are matters of general investigation.”

    (p. 181-182).

    (On p. 184, in connection with something else, he writes: “Today is 11th December 1903”. The book has 258 pages.)

    Years later Maulana Nur-ud-Din said:

    “There is another debate, as to whether the Messiah was born without father or not. I say: Did 124,000 prophets have fathers or not? The Shariah has not laid upon us the obligation to make investigation about the mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of prophets. These matters are not a part of your spiritual progress.” (Badr, 24th August 1911)


  14. At last we are making progress.  And thank you for publishing all of my comments. 

    Im still not done with you and Muhammad Ali in terms of his response to that letter.  More to come on that. 

    Question 1:  When did Noorudin write this book entitled Nur al Din?  What year? 

    Question 2: Is Zafrullah Khan a liar? 

    I read this, from his book entitled, “Noorudin”

    “The birth of Jesusas without a father had been a somewhat controversial question. Maulawi Nur-ud- Dinra had held the view that Jesus had a father. The Promised Messiahas, in his book Mawahibur Rahman.”

    Then, I actually bumped into a good reference about the fire of Abraham (as).  I will post that data into the proper thread. 

    You need to solved yet another contradiction in Ahmadiyyat thought. 

    , announced that it was part of his doctrine that Jesusas had been born without a father. On reading this Maulawi Sahibra  discarded his view and fell into line with the view propounded by the Promised Messiah as He frankly confessed this change of view in his book Nur-ud-Din


  15. at Mr. Ikram and Mr. Aziz

    It seems that your founder disagreed with Mahmud Ahmad (the Qadianis)as well as Muhammad Ali and the LAM.  Read it:

    “He had also opined that the fire mentioned in 21:70 was the fire of opposition; but the Promised Messiahas observed: “There is no need to have recourse to such a construction. I too have been called Abrahamas by God. Those who are unable to comprehend how the fire was cooled for Abrahamas are welcome to throw me into the fire and see whether I emerge safe from it or not.” So Maulawi Sahibra, in refutation of Dharampal’s objection, wrote in Nur-ud-Din: “You can throw our Leader into the fire, and youwill see that Allah, the Exalted, will, according to His promise, safeguard him against the fire as He had safeguarded Abrahamas.”30

    30= Nuruddin p.146.

    From:http://www.alislam.org/library/books/HazratMaulviNooruddeen.pdf

    Page 100, the other reference as posted above is the same. 


  16.  
    Bilal: Your approach towards these silly issues of pyrotechnics and fatherless child and its hair-splitting proves nothing but like Jews and Christians these are articles of faith for you.
     
    Assuming (just like you) that these are article of faith for you, then its imperative for you to walk in the footsteps and accept the sunnah of these Holy Prophets and replicate these stories in your life. Now following your faith, if your wife (to be if you are not married) uses the same logic about fatherhood of your child or your child wants to play with fire, what will be your response? Will you be accepting of such a “sunnah”? If you reject it, then you prove once again that you have double standards.
     
    Your malice is quite clear in your writing and questioning. Your behavior is no different than the role of his fellow Jews who distracted Jesus (PBUH) from passing his message to the Romans. It was their polemics, hypocrisy and hurdles that apparently made mission of Jesus (PBUH) fail in Palestine and he had to escape to Kashmir to continue with his program. You are trying to be the lamp of knowledge but in your ignorance you might be actually trying to burn down your own house of faith. You remind me of a couplet which translated into English states:
     
    Blisters of the soul inflamed further by the malice in the chest
    Ah! this house (i.e. body) burnt down by its own lamp
     
    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s (ra) message which is unquestionably credited for Tauheed, refocusing Ummah to absolute finality of prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH) and Quran as penultimate source of one’s faith, cannot be derailed by nonsensical paper pollution and jumbled noise of your doubts. Your arguments have reached an asymptote because your purpose is not to seek truth but to find a crack in the system, just like Dajjal which has been prophesied to circle Kabbah to find any weakness so that it can inflict damage. But the same prophecy denies him this success.
     
    Not once in your debate have you quoted a single verse of Quran to backup your arguments. It exposes your source of faith which is anything but Quran and for sure is based upon finding faults in others, that you have not been able to do so far.
     
    LAM literature is built upon and expounds Quran and in the process the authors had their own personal spiritual experiences, and there is nothing wrong at all with that. For this movement the discussion of pragmatic issues did not end with with the founders, it is still going on, because no human word is final. The only finality is in Quran. Please quote any mutual discrepancy between LAM literature and Quran. That will be a real good service to the cause of faith, else you are not important. I fear that if you start to critically read and understand Quran, you too might become LAMi. What do you have to say about that? Scary?
     
    While talking of Quran I will redirect the nature of your logic for your self reflection in light of verse 30:30. Take a look.


  17. April 8th, 2011 at 4:00 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Fire and Abraham:

    Immediately after “as he had safeguarded Abraham (as)”, Maulana Nur-ud-Din says in that reference: “and our Holy Prophet (saw)”.

    From which fire was the Holy Prophet guarded and how? Then he goes on to write that the non-Muslim opponents of Mirza sahib started fires against him, the Muslim opponents started different types of fires but all were disappointed. Which fire is he talking about here?

    Your quote from Zafrullah says: “are welcome to throw me into the fire”. Maulana Nur-ud-Din writes in that reference: “Abraham did not himself jump into the fire, nor do the believers or righteous or prophets themselves test Allah. They are commanded not to destroy themselves. … You foolishly say that he (HMGA) should himself enter into fire. Is this obedience to the example of prophets and messengers? The Quran says: Throw him. So you give this command to your followers and forces”.

    Birth of Jesus:

    Why does it matter to you whether M. Nur-ud-Din sahib changed his view or not? In either case he remains a kafir according to you. If he didn’t change, as we say (i.e. continued believing Jesus had a father), he is an even worse kafir according to you.


  18. Mr Aziz

    It appears that I am the most action this blog has had in years.  My viewpoint must be tremendous for the 6-7 bloggers here.  lol. 

    Zafrullah presented this information in a much different way than you are.  That is a problem in itself.  Then, you are pulling the technicalities out of the statement of Nur ud Din.  Stop it, stop behaving in this manner.  Deal with the issues, not the minor inconsistencies therein. 

    Then you quote only a portion of the passage: 

    “Those who are unable to comprehend how the fire was cooled for Abrahamas are welcome to throw me into the fire and see whether I emerge safe from it or not.” 

    This is the whole sentence.  MGAQ was talking about YOU.  YOU and Ikram are unable to comprehend.  Your own leader disagrees with you on this entire topic.  And you guys called me the LIAR????  Are you kidding? 

    Why does it matter if Nur al Din changed his position?  WHAT ???  This is paramount to the discussion.  We must establish facts that find conclusions based on facts.  You might not know how to do that. 

    You must wonder…did I know ahead of time about the fire???  Did I set you guys up for failure??  Maybe I did…I warned you…im really smart.  lol. 


    @ Ikram

    You must think….did Bilal set me up??? Did Bilal know of what MGAQ had written about the fire before hand??? i warned you guys. Im not the Ulema of india. Im that new-age boy. I have the internet at my disposal, they didnt!!!!!!

    Why dont you search the books of your founder and tell me what he wrote in terms of the fire.

    And also, I hypothesize that Malik Ghulam Fareed/Mahmud Ahmad copied Muhammad Ali’s Quran in this case, any many others.


  19. April 8th, 2011 at 9:52 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The following is what Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote about the fire:

    “It is established that the Holy Prophet had the same nature as Abraham. Just as Abraham, for the love of Tauheed, got himself placed in the fire and then was saved by the voice of “O fire, be coolness and peace”, similarly our Holy Prophet, for the love of Tauheed, got himself placed in the fire of that persecution which, after his coming, arose all over the world” (Tiryaq-ul-Qulub, p. 155).

    “When a believer wishes to be a true believer, tribulations come upon him till he thinks he is going to die. Then the mercy of Allah comes into action and the order is given: O fire, be coolness and peace.” (Al-Hakam, December 1902).

    Which fires are these, that the Holy Prophet and a believer faces?

    Zafrullah hasn’t given any reference to Hazrat Mirza sahib’s words, but in an extract which is similar to the one in his book, it is stated:

    “Let any opponent try, and start a fire and place me in it. The fire will not work and Allah will save me according to His promise. But this does not mean that I should myself jump into a fire. God says: Do not destroy yourselves by your own hands. I do not enter fire deliberately. It is a promise of protection against the enemies that if they try to burn me in fire I will not burn.” (Badr, December 1903)

    He is talking about his opponents, not about us or Maulana Nur-ud-Din nor asking the Maulana to put him in a fire as a test!

    In the extracts from the book “Nur-ud-Din” referred to by Zafrullah, the Maulana constantly mentions “opposition” as fire. And, as I quoted above, he writes that Allah will safeguard him as He safeguarded Abraham and our Holy Prophet”. Zafrullah stops at “Abraham”.

    Bilal writes: “Why does it matter if Nur al Din changed his position?  WHAT ???”

    I wrote this about the birth of Jesus: “Why does it matter to you…”

    If he changed his position about the birth of Jesus then according to you that is an improvement and he got nearer to Islam! Strange that a person who is further away from Islam about the birth of Jesus is, according to you, brought closer to true Islam by Hazrat Mirza sahib!


  20. at Mr. Aziz

    MGAQ was so contradictory that it is hard to understand his doctrines.  In terms of the fire, whether Ibrahim (as) was thrown into it or not, MGAQ appears to give the same type of circumlocution based answers. 

    The moral of the story is MGAQ was a quack-job, he was totally nuts.  That is the underlying truth.   In the same sense, I have asked Mr. Aziz to answer many of my questions which he has carefully avoided.  Instead, he focuses on technicalities and looks to use counter-arguments in this area. 


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