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December 31st, 2011

Polite question to all members of the Qadiani Jamaat. Am I right or your member Bashir Shah?

Dear members of the Qadiani Jamaat,
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu-hu

A member of your Jamaat, Bashir Shah, has been arguing on this blog regarding the book Siraj Munir by the Promised Messiah that:

HMGA (as), began writing Siraj Munir before 1891, he didnt edit it when it was finally published in 1897. I havent read that book. However, its a wonderful example.

and:

On our website, alislam.org, there is a book which briefly touches on all of the books of HMGA (as). They have confirmed that Siraj Munir was began in 1888. See http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Hidden-Treasures-of-Islam.pdf, PAGE 186. It seems like the pupil has taught the teacher.

(I understand that by pupil he means himself and by teacher he means me.)

He presents this book as an example of a book by the Promised Messiah written many years before its first publication, and then published bearing the current date of publication, which could still be reflecting beliefs he held when he wrote it years ago, even though they might not be current at the time of publication. So, he says, that while Tiryaq-ul-Qulub was first published in October 1902, it could still contain his claims from earlier years which were not current in October 1902.

Siraj Munir is in Ruhani Khazai’n, v. 12, and has exactly 100 pages (in the 1984 edition these are numbered 1 to 100 at the bottom, in the latest edition these are numbered 3 to 102 at the top).

Dear members of the Qadiani Jamaat: If you were to pick any one of those 100 pages, I can show evidence from just that page alone, taken individually on its own, that it was written after 1891. (It is possible that in a few cases I may need to go to the page before or after the one that you select.)

My question is: Do you believe that I am correct that each and every page of Siraj Munir was written after 1891, many of them in 1897, and your member Bashir Shah is wrong? Would you like to test my claim by selecting any page from this book?

Wassalam,
Zahid Aziz

15 Responses to “Polite question to all members of the Qadiani Jamaat. Am I right or your member Bashir Shah?”

  1. @ ZA
    I dont understand your question.  And trust me…you only have 5 regulars on this blog.  My jamaat doesnt case what you say or do.  The split was an issue 100 years ago, then 50 years ago.  Not any more!!  In fact….you people will probably die off with this current generation of Punjabees and Fijians. 

    Anyhow, I had read in another place (i cant remember where) that HMGA (as) was still working on the publication of Siraj Munir (which had begun in 1888 or so).  I think it was in connection with Lekh Ram.  Once Lekh Ram died, HMGA (as) went and found his old book that he was working on and published.  And………he didnt add any notes in terms of his belief on Esa (as).  Like I said..I havent read the book, since its only in english.  Maybe you should translate it 🙂 ????

    I’m not sure how many pages HMGA (as) had written prior to 1891.  I have no idea.  This isnt TQ, for TQ HMBMA went thru a thorough investigation, page by page to prove a point.  As you know, all of that data is in HN. 

    Furthermore, HMGA (as) died in mid 1908.  Jesus in India was incomplete, so was BA vol. 5.  However these books were published.  I was giving examples of books that were published much much after their writing.  Jesus in India was began in 1896 or so…what parts of that were written in what years?  Do you wish to answer that? 


  2. I just searched Dard.  I knew I had read the Siraj Munir data therein. 

    It seems that Siraj Munir was started around Oct 1884. 

    See http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Ahmad-20080411MN.pdf

    Page 134

    Also see page 158 and 159, FOOTNOTE

    Also see page 532

    Also see the index page 863 for further reference to Siraaj Munir. 

    I hope I have answered all of your questions. 


  3. In your first comment you are introducing other issues, to avoid your embarrassment at your wrong example. I have said that I can easily show that each and every page of Siraj Munir was written after 1891.

    I again repeat my question. You or any member of the Qadiani Jamaat can select any page number of Siraj Munir in Ruhani Khaza’in v. 12 and I will show that that page was written after 1891, after the claim to be Promised Messiah had been announced. Then Qadiani Jamaat members can give their opinion on whether I am right or you are right.

    Even if you can’t read that book because it is in Urdu, you could still select a page number! And I am sure you must know people who can read Urdu who could advise you on selecting a page number.


  4. And trust me…you only have 5 regulars on this blog. 

    Bashir, where is your Jamaat’s official discussion forum or blog that we may participate on? Please let us know. Thanks.


  5. @ Omar:

    ” Bashir, where is your Jamaat’s official discussion forum or blog that we may participate on? Please let us know. Thanks.”

    Earlier last year Qadiani official website ‘alislam.org’ opened a very tighly monitored discussion forum. There “Rationalist” aka Bashir started posting pretending to be a Qadiani. He posted Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad quotes where they have called all kinds of nasty words to Muslims including decleration of ‘Kufar’. He also posted QK2 quotes where he claimed thousands of new prophets i.e. “Ummati-Nabi” will come in future. Of course this kind of information was not helping Qadianis public relations and opening possibilities for new   claimants of “Ummati-Nabi” among Qadianis. Thus dangering the current Qadiani-Khalifa family existance.  So, as expected Qadiani official website closed the forum.   


  6. For the sake of excercise..I pick page 25 from RK…

    Please…Mr. Aziz….prove that it was written after 1891. 

    HMGA (as) himself writes in “Sabz Ishtihar” that he has delayed the publication of Siraj Munir. 


  7. Below is the image of the first few lines of page 25 in Siraj Munir from RK, v. 12. The beginning of first line refers to a newspaper whose date is given as 10th March 1897. Therefore this page was written after that date.

    Siraj Munir, p. 25


  8. Dear Zahid Aziz,

    Are you asserting that every single page of Siraj Munir has a reference to an event of 1897??? 

    Are you then asserting that HMGA (as) lied when he said in “Green Announcement (1888) that he has delayed the publication of Siraaj Munir?

    And how many times does HMGA (as) write that “Prophets and Saints” make mistakes in the green announcement???  And this was before he even formed a community.  He even accepted the idea that he had erred in his prophecies, in lieu of errors made by earlier prophets like Moses. 


  9. To find out what I am asserting, please read the main post above. To repeat, I can show evidence from any page that it was written after 1891. See above for precise details.

    The topic here is not prophecies. The topic of discussion is clearly written by me in the above post, namely the claim of your Jamaat member Bashir that Siraj Munir is an example of a book written many years before its publication, reflecting beliefs which he held at the time of writing but which had changed at the time of publication.

    All you have to do is to show which page of Siraj Munir was written before the Green Announcement. 


  10. According to Bashir (see the first comment above), Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote Siraj Munir when he still believed that Jesus was alive, and he published this book in 1897: “And………he didnt add any notes in terms of his belief on Esa (as).”

    Bashir says, he didn’t indicate in this book, when publishing it, that he had changed his belief since writing the book. Yet in this book, on page 43 of RK, v. 12, he writes:

    “Barahin Ahmadiyya itself testifies that at that time I had no idea that I was the Promised Messiah, and I still held the old belief.”


  11. Dear Mr Zahid Aziz,

    I have reviewed both of your 2 recent posts as well as the other relevant posts. 

    What I fail to understand is your methodology.  The issue here is the fact that HMGA (as) himself wrote in the green announcement that he was delaying the publication of Siraaj Munir.  This was circa 1888, as we all know, Siraaj Munir was published in 1897 close to the time of the murder of Lekh Ram. 

    This is the puzzle that needs to be solved. 

    The fact that you challenged everybody and anybody to argue with you on this topic is troubling.  Why didnt you simply write that you had read the book and it seemed that every page was written after 1891.  Then, you would need to explain HMGA’s (as) statements in the green announcement.  Did HMGA (as) make a mistake?  RK is full of corrections to HMGA’s (as) mistakes.  Why dont you simply submit this for correction?  Has your jamaat re-published this book?  Has your jamaat ever translated it? 

    In the end..we are all Ahmadis, we are all on the same team.  This back and forth bickering and challenging is not conducive to growth.  We should be learning from each other and making corrections as needed. 

    I think Bashir was simply pointing out that there were other books that were published years after they were written.  Siraaj Munir and TQ are some examples.  HMGA (as) didnt add footnotes or addendums to every book.  The RK project found many minor errors that were subsequently corrected.  Moreover, the fact that TQ was published after 1901 isnt hard evidence to dis-prove a change. 

    Thank you


  12. Dear Mr Sultan, my post is entitled “polite question”. It is not called a “challenge”, as you call it.

    It does not “seem” that every page was written after 1891. It is a clearly obvious fact. 

    You write: “Then, you would need to explain HMGA’s (as) statements in the green announcement.”

    But it is also your obligation to explain it, unless you can show some part of SM published before the Green Announcement.

    There can be some plausible explanations. Perhaps he felt it unnecessary to publish whatever he had written earlier, and simply published a different book under the name Siraj Munir.

    Why don’t you put this matter to scholars of your Jamaat and ask them to respond to my polite question?

    You write: “This back and forth bickering and challenging …”  So your Jamaat member Bashir can attack us in any way he likes, but if we respond with a “polite question”, it becomes bickering.

    Please read my comment at this link, where I have asked whether the beliefs expressed by Bashir are accepted by the Qadiani Jamaat. Are they?

    Bashir also wrote that both Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and Maulana Muhammad Ali “were able to send missions openly and freely to all parts of the British Empire. While no other Islamic group had such a liberty.” Do you agree with Bashir on this?


  13. My beloved brother in Ahmadiyyat:

    We have already explained that the delay was due to some mis-apprehension on the part of HMGA (as) in terms of the Musleh Maud.  HMGA (as) writes this himself in “Sabz Ishtihar”, there is then no need to suggest anything else.  Im sure that you have read this book. 

    My objection is in terms of your behavior in asking someone to pick a page number.  Why didnt you simply say that HMGA (as) must have totally re-written the book by 1897?  Are you suggesting that erased his previous writings and then inserted new ones? 

    Finally, by now, I hope that you have understood that the AMI has much bigger tasks with which to allocate resources.  If someone wants to believe our point of view, that is fine, if not, they are welcome to leave.  Have you tried to call teh Rah-e-Huda show and ask this question?  I will try to get in touch with some scholars and see what they have to say on the topic.  However, all of the data is in front of me and you.  There appears to be no other data that could be collected. 

    The assertion of Bashir is simple and straightforward.  HMGA (as) wasnt in the habit of adding addendums to books that he had written.  Everytime HMGA (as) wrote a book it was spontaneous and captured instantaneously.  He rarely edited his books before publishing a 2nd edition.  The split harps on the issue of TQ, I think Bashir has provided a wonderful rebuttal. 

    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance


  14. It may help if I re-cap. Bashir presented the book Siraj Munir as an example, basing it on something he read in Qadiani Jamaat literature. So I asked Qadiani Jamaat members to give their opinion on whether I am right or he is right, and in case of any doubt I asked them to name any page. It is more of a challenge for me! All they are asked to do is simply select a page. It then becomes a challenge for me to show that it was written after 1891.

    But Qadiani Jamaat members seem unable, almost terrified, to describe Bashir as wrong. It would be almost no loss to them to admit that this was a wrong example. It doesn’t harm their beliefs in any way. All they would be admitting is that one example was wrong. So what hold does Bashir have over them that they can’t call him wrong?

    This is also why I keep referring them to Bashir’s other statements which go against their beliefs. He wrote that between 1908 and 1914 Ahmadis including Qadiani Jamaat leaders were confused about the Promised Messiah’s claim. He wrote that it was in 1914/15 that Qadiani Jamaat leaders first started “probing” the change of claim of Hazrat Mirza sahib, and he admitted that the khalifa at first made the mistake of writing that TQ was completed in October 1902 and so every pre-October 1902 writing is abrogated. He described the Qadiani Jamaat, along with the AAIIL, as the only Muslim group supported by the British, i.e. British agents.

    But it seems that Qadianis dare not even call Bashir wrong when he is openly contradicting their beliefs, because as long as he is also attacking Lahoris, the Qadianis are satisfied.

    So we see the so-called 200 million Jamaat paralysed by one Bashir. And we see the 200 million Jamaat unable to answer a simple question asked by one Lahori.


  15. January 19th, 2012 at 1:49 pm
    From Mohammed Iqbal:

    @Sultan

    Dear sultan aka Bashir aka “rationalist”,  what’s your real identity? 


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