Dear sultan aka Bashir aka “rationalist”,  what’s your real identity? 

But Qadiani Jamaat members seem unable, almost terrified, to describe Bashir as wrong. It would be almost no loss to them to admit that this was a wrong example. It doesn’t harm their beliefs in any way. All they would be admitting is that one example was wrong. So what hold does Bashir have over them that they can’t call him wrong?

This is also why I keep referring them to Bashir’s other statements which go against their beliefs. He wrote that between 1908 and 1914 Ahmadis including Qadiani Jamaat leaders were confused about the Promised Messiah’s claim. He wrote that it was in 1914/15 that Qadiani Jamaat leaders first started “probing” the change of claim of Hazrat Mirza sahib, and he admitted that the khalifa at first made the mistake of writing that TQ was completed in October 1902 and so every pre-October 1902 writing is abrogated. He described the Qadiani Jamaat, along with the AAIIL, as the only Muslim group supported by the British, i.e. British agents.

But it seems that Qadianis dare not even call Bashir wrong when he is openly contradicting their beliefs, because as long as he is also attacking Lahoris, the Qadianis are satisfied.

So we see the so-called 200 million Jamaat paralysed by one Bashir. And we see the 200 million Jamaat unable to answer a simple question asked by one Lahori.

We have already explained that the delay was due to some mis-apprehension on the part of HMGA (as) in terms of the Musleh Maud.  HMGA (as) writes this himself in “Sabz Ishtihar”, there is then no need to suggest anything else.  Im sure that you have read this book. 

My objection is in terms of your behavior in asking someone to pick a page number.  Why didnt you simply say that HMGA (as) must have totally re-written the book by 1897?  Are you suggesting that erased his previous writings and then inserted new ones? 

Finally, by now, I hope that you have understood that the AMI has much bigger tasks with which to allocate resources.  If someone wants to believe our point of view, that is fine, if not, they are welcome to leave.  Have you tried to call teh Rah-e-Huda show and ask this question?  I will try to get in touch with some scholars and see what they have to say on the topic.  However, all of the data is in front of me and you.  There appears to be no other data that could be collected. 

The assertion of Bashir is simple and straightforward.  HMGA (as) wasnt in the habit of adding addendums to books that he had written.  Everytime HMGA (as) wrote a book it was spontaneous and captured instantaneously.  He rarely edited his books before publishing a 2nd edition.  The split harps on the issue of TQ, I think Bashir has provided a wonderful rebuttal. 

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance

It does not “seem” that every page was written after 1891. It is a clearly obvious fact. 

You write: ”Then, you would need to explain HMGA’s (as) statements in the green announcement.”

But it is also your obligation to explain it, unless you can show some part of SM published before the Green Announcement.

There can be some plausible explanations. Perhaps he felt it unnecessary to publish whatever he had written earlier, and simply published a different book under the name Siraj Munir.

Why don’t you put this matter to scholars of your Jamaat and ask them to respond to my polite question?

You write: “This back and forth bickering and challenging …”  So your Jamaat member Bashir can attack us in any way he likes, but if we respond with a “polite question”, it becomes bickering.

Please read my comment at this link, where I have asked whether the beliefs expressed by Bashir are accepted by the Qadiani Jamaat. Are they?

Bashir also wrote that both Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and Maulana Muhammad Ali “were able to send missions openly and freely to all parts of the British Empire. While no other Islamic group had such a liberty.” Do you agree with Bashir on this?

I have reviewed both of your 2 recent posts as well as the other relevant posts. 

What I fail to understand is your methodology.  The issue here is the fact that HMGA (as) himself wrote in the green announcement that he was delaying the publication of Siraaj Munir.  This was circa 1888, as we all know, Siraaj Munir was published in 1897 close to the time of the murder of Lekh Ram. 

This is the puzzle that needs to be solved. 

The fact that you challenged everybody and anybody to argue with you on this topic is troubling.  Why didnt you simply write that you had read the book and it seemed that every page was written after 1891.  Then, you would need to explain HMGA’s (as) statements in the green announcement.  Did HMGA (as) make a mistake?  RK is full of corrections to HMGA’s (as) mistakes.  Why dont you simply submit this for correction?  Has your jamaat re-published this book?  Has your jamaat ever translated it? 

In the end..we are all Ahmadis, we are all on the same team.  This back and forth bickering and challenging is not conducive to growth.  We should be learning from each other and making corrections as needed. 

I think Bashir was simply pointing out that there were other books that were published years after they were written.  Siraaj Munir and TQ are some examples.  HMGA (as) didnt add footnotes or addendums to every book.  The RK project found many minor errors that were subsequently corrected.  Moreover, the fact that TQ was published after 1901 isnt hard evidence to dis-prove a change. 

Thank you

Bashir says, he didn’t indicate in this book, when publishing it, that he had changed his belief since writing the book. Yet in this book, on page 43 of RK, v. 12, he writes:

“Barahin Ahmadiyya itself testifies that at that time I had no idea that I was the Promised Messiah, and I still held the old belief.”

The topic here is not prophecies. The topic of discussion is clearly written by me in the above post, namely the claim of your Jamaat member Bashir that Siraj Munir is an example of a book written many years before its publication, reflecting beliefs which he held at the time of writing but which had changed at the time of publication.

All you have to do is to show which page of Siraj Munir was written before the Green Announcement. 

Are you asserting that every single page of Siraj Munir has a reference to an event of 1897??? 

Are you then asserting that HMGA (as) lied when he said in “Green Announcement (1888) that he has delayed the publication of Siraaj Munir?

And how many times does HMGA (as) write that “Prophets and Saints” make mistakes in the green announcement???  And this was before he even formed a community.  He even accepted the idea that he had erred in his prophecies, in lieu of errors made by earlier prophets like Moses. 

Please…Mr. Aziz….prove that it was written after 1891. 

HMGA (as) himself writes in “Sabz Ishtihar” that he has delayed the publication of Siraj Munir.