Furthermore, Shaikh Hamza Yousaf discussed the heresy of Ahmadiyya. Lets see what you have to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LheIp_rRFZA

This is clear proof that Farhan has lost all sense and reason. I have listened to this audio and point to the following statements in it by Hamza Yousaf. I also indicate the time in this clip at which you can hear the particular comment.
 

0.50: His English translation of the Quran is the best in my estimation.

1.40: It is not accurate to say that Ahmadis are kafir.

2.35: In the early period there was some very solid scholarship among Ahmadis.

2.50: Ahmadis did some of the best refutation of Christian attacks on Islam. Maulana Muhammad Ali did some of the best work of defence of Islam for the Muslim community that I have seen.

3.00: A lot of Muslims “borrowed heavily” from Maulana Muhammad Ali’s original work, without attributing it to him, “even though it is very clear where they took it from”.

3.18 to 3.45:
Pickthall’s translation was “highly influenced by Maulana Muhammad Ali’s.” Pickthall then influenced later translators.

Therefore Maulana Muhammad Ali has “definitely made his impact on the English speaking Muslim community whether they realise it or not”.

“I wish the best for him. He seemed like a very devout Muslim.”
 

Since Farhan has himself referred us to this 6 minute talk, presumably he has listened to it. Therefore his own reference condemns his views about us, thoroughly and utterly. I see no reason to continue the dialogue with him and waste time, since he has been completely defeated and routed by his own hands.

I have placed the relevant text at this link.

Please read the first couple of lines and then the paragraph which I have marked by blue lines in the margin, and also the sentence just before it which I have underlined in blue.

This edition of Tafsir Kabir is online at http://www.qurango.com/tafseer.html and the text above is under “Part 15″, from page 207 to 208.

Christianity’s beliefs are unscientific and irrational. This is the reason to survive it has to continuously keep changing its doctrine.

34 years ago on July 25th 1978 first test tube baby was born. Catholic Church then condemned. Today it accepts it.

It is a clear proof. If Catholic Church fails to remain consistant in their beliefs, NO support by Muslims such as Farhan and Rizwan can help irrational Christian doctrine ‘Jesus alive physically’ to survive.   

Please watch following newsreport at time of test tube baby birth at 2:15
http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/25/12931520-happy-birthday-ivf-inconceivable-mom-looks-back-at-first-test-tube-baby?lite

You have been exposed more and more with each of your own postings as being completely ridiculous, and you don’t even have the sense to realise how absurd you have made yourself look. I wonder how many anti-Ahmadiyya persons, witnessing your discomfiture, would even like to associate their names with your postings!

1. As to inconsistencies, you wrote earlier: ” All Mirza sahib did was point out a glaring inconsistency in Islam..there are many others by the way.” (See link.) Your accusation of inconsistency against us has no value in the eyes of any Muslim because you have accused even Islam of having many inconsistencies, one of them you say is a glaring one!

I am sure on the basis of your statement many Muslims will declare you as kafir (although we won’t if you still recite the kalima).

1.a. You have been tellling us that all or almost all Muslims up to Mirza sahib’s time believed Jesus is alive and will return. So how did the death of Jesus become a “gray area” for him to exploit?

1.b. “Muhammad: His life based on the earliest sources” based on Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Saad, first edition 1983. Notice “earliest sources”. This author, a Muslim, claims to have simply compiled the accounts from the “earliest sources”.

1.c. But you have told us that the Muslims who have believed before that Jesus died also believed in his return. You wrote: ” However, all of those people believed in the physical return of Esa (as).”. But the ones I have quoted don’t believe in his return. Now you claim “Esa (as) may be dead…Thats a belief that a Muslim could hold”. But you have been telling us before that a Muslim has to believe in his return and all Muslim do so.

1.d. It is not a “general hadith”. It is the hadith about what happened after the Holy Prophet died and some Muslims thought that he would return. So now you say that Jesus can die twice, even though Hazrat Abu Bakr said regarding the Holy Prophet that two deaths would not be allowed by Allah!

You say Jesus had “special rules associated with him”, despite being called in the Quran: only like Adam, only a messenger, nothing but a servant, and it being said that if Allah had wished to destroy Jesus, nothing could have stood in Allah’s way!

2. It is clearly written in classical tafsirs of several centuries ago that some Muslims of the Holy Prophet’s time considered the Mi`raj to be spiritual and not physical.

2.a. You have said this in reply to my point that “billions of Muslims” don’t even know who Idris was, let alone believe that he was raised alive to heaven. If Ahmadis, as alleged by you, don’t know what is written in their dogma, then at least it can be found written in the dogma but they don’t know it. But in case of Idris it is not even written. Here is what Maudoodi says about that verse:

“The plain meaning is that God had favored Idris with a high rank, but according to the Israelite traditions, God took up Idris (Enoch) to heavens.”

2.b. Is Maudoodi also a “new-age” commentator?

“Yusuf Ali would not join your religion. I wonder why?”

Because he didn’t regard it as a “religion”. In his preface to his Quran translation he calls Ahmadis “a sect”. Why do Muslims quote non-Muslims (e.g. Bernard Shaw) in favour of Islam? Did they join “your religion”. I wonder why?

You are obviously too infantile to understand that when an outsider agrees with you on some point (when other outsiders don’t) it then becomes a strong evidence in your favour as regards that particular point. If Yusuf Ali had become an Ahmadi, then you would say his view of Idris is completely invalid because he is bound to agree with Ahmadis!

2.c. I see. So the Holy Prophet till the Madina period thought Jesus was dead as he had been shown to him among deceased prophets, but at Madina Allah revealed to him: No, in fact Jesus is alive.

3. “CAIR or ISNA are not obsessed with the return of Esa (as), nor do they issue fatwas as to what will happen when Esa (as) returns.”

CAIR have been promoting Muhammad Asad’s translation of the Quran in the US. So people all over the US are learning that according to the Quran Jesus died and will never return, and the stories of his return believed by Muslims are only myths.

Your mention of CAIR now brings this debate to a conclusion, because the very organisation which you mention as being a recognised Muslim body is widely promoting a translation of the Quran which supports us on the death of Jesus and goes completely against you.

I notice that you have not rejected Maudoodi’s belief that each and every Jew “will be annihilated” and “will be exterminated” (his words) by Jesus when he returns, or the belief in the Saudi promoted Quran translation that “all people will be required to embrace Islam and there will be no other alternative”.

You have clearly accepted these as possibly correct interpretations because you keeping on saying that you don’t know what exactly will happen. You have therefore confirmed that if Jesus actually did these things when he came, then all Muslims (including you if you were present) will be duty-bound to exterminate all Jews and to force every other non-Muslim to accept Islam “with no alternative”.

Thank you. This exchange is now at an end.

1. You seem to have entangled a bunch of topics in a very lawyer-esque manner. Very good job! Its amazing that you look for inconsistencies in my writings yet you overlook the inconsistencies in basic lahori dogma, i.e. That Mirza sahib claimed prophethood. … [Excised by Admin]

1.a. Mirza sahib knew that this was gray area (the death of Esa (as)]. He fought for land all thru his life. … [Excised by Admin]

1.b. I am not sure what Seerah you are referring to. Please give a name..I may have missed it in the above. Is it Ibn Ishaq/Ibn Hisham or Tabari?? Did they give an award for Kanzul Ummul or Dar-e-Qutni??

1.c. Muslims have argued before that Esa (as) died, they may continue to argue that…however, they arent joining your religion, thats for sure. Again…Esa (as) may be dead…Thats a belief that a Muslim could hold, however, the extension of prophethood is not. And we are sure that your Mahdi/Messiah claimed as such. We do know that he hid his claim to being Esa(as) for 11 years…

1.d. And now you are mixing up a general hadith of Abu Bakr into this scenario..that’s wrong. Esa (as) had many special rules associated with him…the immacualte conception is one. I know you people dont believe that…again…you contradict the writings of your own founder and then explain them away in lawyer-esqe fashion.

2. Yes..I believe that Muhammad (saw) traveled to and from heaven in one night. So do 10000000000′s of other Muslims…the only reason Mirza sahib denied it was because he had to deny that entire concept of physical Raffa and Nuzool as a matter of principle. Do you even know what book he referenced? Wasnt it Ibn Hisham???

2.a. Thousands and thousands of Ahmadis have no idea what ahmadiyyat is, nor have they read about its dogma whatsoever. In fact, 90% of Lahoris have no idea of how Mirza sahib called himself a nabi, I would even include 95% of Qadianis into this.

2.b. Abdullah Yusuf Ali is a new-age commentator…If you want to learn Islam you must read from the earliest sources…and you know that very well. And by the way..Yusuf Ali would not join your religion. I wonder why?

2.c. In terms of the Miraj…at that point in Islamic history..the story of Esa (as) hadnt been explained. It wasnt til Muhammad (saw) was in full power at Medina when the Esa (as) story was explained. Hence…however, or whatever state Esa (as) was in is inconsequential.

3. You are making a mockery of Islam with your style of polemics. In the USA, we dont focus on these scenarios….call it what you want…CAIR or ISNA are not obsessed with the return of Esa (as), nor do they issue fatwas as to what will happen when Esa (as) returns. We have general guidelines…for example, the Mahdi and Esa (as) will be 2 seperate people. Islam will be triumphant. And how did the europeans conquer the americas?? I dont see you critisizing them…what about what teh British did to India?

4. Ahmadis were involved in politics since like forever… [Excised by Admin]

4.a. Personally, I think Mirza sahib was looking out for himself… [Excised by Admin]

I hope I have answered all questions…let me know if I havent.

1. Hazrat Mirza sahib has announced very clearly that if it can be proved that Islam teaches that Jesus is alive in heaven and will return, then his claim is wrong. Far from being a “smoke screen” it provides a single point on which to refute his claims.

As to your allegations about his character, I hope you have now read that award-winning, Muslim biography of the Holy Prophet Muhammad that I referred you to, in response to your earlier allegation. The compiler quite shamelessly, but approvingly, relates from earlier sources of Islam that upon visiting a certain married woman at her home, in the absence of her husband, the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) realised that she “loved him and that he loved her and that she knew he loved her”. (Astaghfirullah, I seek refuge in Allah from being forced to quote this.)

1.a. I asked earlier, why then are more and more Muslims now coming to believe that Jesus is not alive in heaven and will not return? I referred to the Al-Azhar ruling. I referred to a Saudi newspaper which mentions that there are “a number of scholars, some of them prominent indeed” who believe this, and that it is a justifiable interpretation.

As to the “beliefs swirling” that Jesus died but still he rose again physically and will return, will he then die again a second time after his return? If so, why did Hazrat Abu Bakr say of the Holy Prophet after his death “Allah will not combine two deaths on you”?

1.b. See above.

2. You forgot here that you also believe that the Holy Prophet returned back from heaven quite speedily in one night and never went there again, while many other prophets are there in heaven.

2.a. ”Billions of Muslims” don’t know who Idris is or what is stated in the Quran about him. Moreover, many mainstream Quran commentators don’t believe this about Idris. Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes that the raf` of Idris means that he held a high position of piety and truthfulness in the eyes of his people, and not that he didn’t die.

2.b./c. The whole Mi`raj hadith mentions Jesus in the same way and condition as other prophets. The Holy Prophet’s interaction with him was the same as with other prophets. Laws of science don’t come into it, they can’t ever tell us where the spirits of the dead are in the next world. It is the teachings of Islam that we must go by.

2.d. See 1.a above about Muslim scholars who are accepting that Jesus will not return.

3. “Maudoodi offered his opinion”. Maudoodi has followers all over the Muslim world, he founded a political party which seeks power in Pakistan, there are related parties in other Muslim countries. His “opinion” is accepted as fact by a large number of Muslims. Why should I concern myself with Christian or Jewish versions? They don’t affect me or any other Muslim, and I reject and laugh at them.

Not only Maudoodi, but read the well known translation of the Quran by Muhsin Khan and Al-Hilali, officially approved by the Saudi government. It says that when Jesus returns:

— “he will not accept any other religion except Islam” (footnote [1] under 8:39)
— “all mankind will be required to embrace Islam with no other alternative” (footnote [2] B under 8:39)
— Non-Muslims would not be allowed to keep their own religions “but all people will be required to embrace Islam and there will be no other alternative” (footnote [1] b under 3:55)

This is what Muslims are being told to look forward to when Jesus returns.

4. The “Message of Peace” asked Hindus to acknowledge the Holy Prophet as a true prophet and stop abusing him. But they didn’t even stop abusing him. They even had my grandfather arrested in 1923 for writing an article about the Vedas in response to their filthy allegations against Islam.

I think your sentence that due to partition “The Indian economy was thus dealt a huge blow that it has yet to overcome” is meant to enflame Indians against Ahmadis. It somehow slipped through by mistake. To Pakistanis you would say the opposite, that “Ahmadis opposed the creation of Pakistan”. Unfortunately, you slipped up here! You see, you have to say to Christians that Mirza sahib was against them, but you have to say to Muslims that Mirza sahib was on the Christians’ side! This is what is called false, devious propaganda, a technique you are mastering.

Meanwhile, readers may care to look at the Daily Quran Studies that I am compiling and posting.

You are taking my writings so far out of context…this is amazing. You know what I mean..however, you are carefully side-stepping and creating a smoke screen.

1. Ahmadis have been drawing Muslims into a futile debate on the death of Esa (as) and thus creating a smoke screen. The real issue here is the life of Mirza sahib, not the death of anyone.

1.a. The death of Esa (as) or the lack thereof has been discussed by the scholars of the past. However, none of them claimed to be Esa (as). There were always beliefs swirling that Esa (as) may died before his exodus. However, all of those people believed in the physical return of Esa (as).

1.b. Debating this topic is useless. Ahmadis need to prove that Mirza sahib was an honest person. Ahmadis are simply setting a trap….then they argue for hours and hours.

2. I believe that Esa (as) physically ascended to heaven, i also believe that Idris (as) did the same. I also believe that Muhammad (saw) did the same.

2.a. And…its not just me…billions of Muslims agree with me.

2.b. You are asking…how is it possible that Esa (as) was seen there amongst dead people? Again, this question is itself a trap. The truth is that we dont know. The scholars of the past didnt differ over this situation.

2.c. I offered an explanation…I said that maybe outside of space/time the laws of pyhsics are differnt…maybe we cant comprehend them.

2.d. It was been 100+ years…Muslims havent fell for this conversation….it hasnt worked…this argument is thus faulty.

3. Maudoodi offered his opinion…what about the christian version…what about the Judaic version of the return of Elijah (as)??? This is all conjecture….first…you need to prove that Mirza sahib was an honest man…

4. Did I attack the 2-state theory..maybe…the overall point was that Ahmadis should have supported it..hadnt they read “Message of Peace”??? Obviously they hadnt…

Farhan