So, despite being a Lahori, I am not as naive as you assumed.

Do we take it that you were asked by your Jamaat to write this article, and that we can expect the article to be published in some organ of your Jamaat?

If you are in U.K. you should be able to find members and office-holders of your Jamaat who were here at the time of the Woking loss and know something about it. Your Jamaat always tracked the Woking Mission, from the very beginning, for the purpose of raising objections. In the 1980s I met a member of your Jamaat (who has some Lahori relatives) who told me that he had been assigned the task by your Jamaat of searching out information about one of our Woking imams which could be used to criticise him.

Regarding your Khalifa 2′s running away from Qadian, please remember that ever since the Split your Jamaat was claiming that it was a proof of its truth, vis-a-vis Lahoris, that it was based in Qadian while Lahoris had run away, and that Lahoris were now deprived of burial in the Bahishti Maqbara.

But in 1947 the rulers of your Jamaat ran away from Qadian. And they ran away because the Hindu and Sikh rioters in Punjab did not distinguish between them and the other Muslims. The rioters regarded your Jamaat as being a part of the same Muslim community whom your Jamaat had been declaring as kafir and non-Muslim. Trying to be a separate, exclusive and “pure” sect didn’t save you.

Then, to top it all, all your ruling members were themselves deprived of burial in the Bahishti Maqbara (till today), and you fell foul of your own self-constructed standards of who is righteous and who is not.

Remember how Mirza Masroor Ahmad, while on a tour of India in late 2008, was scheduled to go to Qadian in December to celebrate a centenary of khilafat. Instead of going to Qadian, he suddenly left India and ran back to the U.K. out of fear.

1.  I am an Ahmadi from the UK, where we have 20K+ Ahmadis.  I am not a member of any other group.  I think its beyond civility to accuse me as such.  I expect an apology.  Moreover, I was surprised that you could only answer the way you did.   I expected more from someone who was there and knows many Lahoris and has written many books from what I looked at on your website.  

1.a. I began this search as I was asked to write an article wherein I could refute the life and times of BA Misri.   

2.  Why are you so hostile towards me?  Why the counter argument?  I simply wrote that is was amazing that Lahoris hadnt written about this event in more detail.  The South Africa case appears to have gotten more Lahori press, which is odd.  

2.a.  By the way…we were able to retain Qadian and start a new center at Rabwah.  We have since moved headquarters to London, which gives us 3 major centers now.  A win-win if you ask me.  

Nothing slipped through my writings.  You appear to be very paranoid about everything Ahmadiyyat.  Maybe these people have burned you in the past?  You know what I meant.  

It seems that this entire discussion has turned into insults and mud-slinging.  I mistakenly thought that I could learn something from you people.  I wont make that mistake again.  

AoA

2. To my knowledge no one “wrote” about this in any publication. It was no doubt discussed in administrative meetings. Did any Qadiani Jamaat member write “academically” about how they lost Qadian as their centre? That was a vastly more devastating loss for them than our loss of Woking.

3. You can conclude whatever you like. It will be unreliable since much of it will be speculation.

4. ” Did MA Misri publically join the LAM at any point?”

Who is MA Misri? Or did you mean “BA Misri”? 

5. Either you failed to understand my point or you are deliberately trying to alter it.

My question was not why you called BA Misri a Muslim! My question, using bold font, was that you wrote that BA Misri, while pretending to be Ahmadi, was in secret a Muslim, and that he had became a Muslim by leaving Ahmadiyyat. Now that is the language of the anti-Ahmadiyya groups, which seems to have slipped through in your writing.

Are you an anti-Ahmadiyya who is falsely claiming  to be a member of the Qadiani Jamaat? If you are an “Ahmadi Scholar” of the Qadiani Jamaat, it should be a very easy matter for you to prove it by showing your identity and recognition of scholarship within the Jamaat.

If you are appearing here under false pretences, and while defending the Qadiani Jamaat and its Khalifa 2 (as you are in points 6 and 7) you actually regard them as wrong and guilty, and presenting their beliefs as being yours by using terms like ”Musleh Maud (ra)”, then any discussion is purposeless.

Remember that when you say “(ra)” after someone’s name, you are actually praying to Allah that He may be pleased with that person. So, are you saying a prayer to Allah but you want the opposite of your prayer to happen? 

2. Are there any Lahoris who have first hand knowledge of this event? Did they write about it about academically? Why not? There appears to be gaps in the research work here that I would like to fill.

3. Can I conclude that BA Misri was taken as a Lahori Ahmadi in the 1960′s? Can I also conclude that he fooled the management of the Woking Mosque into believing that he sympathized with Ahmadis? Can I further conclude that as soon as he had the opportunity, he stung the Lahori Ahmadis and thus wrecked their center of operation in Europe? Wasn’t the Woking mosque used as a book depot? Werent all Lahori books in Europe and the USA sold from this location? Even the Quran of Muhamamd Ali?

4. It is troubling that the father of BA Misri was unavailable for comment. He could have solved the entire case of BA Misri. Did MA Misri publically join the LAM at any point? Did he ever write anything in support of the LAM?

5. In terms of why I called BA Misri a Muslim. This is a different topic. Personally, I believe anyone who claims “La illah, illalla, Muhammad ur Rasullolah” is a Muslim. However, if that person calls Mirza sahib a Kafir, than he cant possibly be a Muslim (see Bukhari). Further, the level of Momin is different than a nominal Muslim. I think Takfeer is a slippery slope for anyone. In the UK and the USA, christian clerics regularly question the christianity of different sects. As we all know the debate between protestants and catholics.

5.a. If BA Misri called Mirza sahib a Kafir in the 1960′s…I am unaware of that. The same applies for after the 1960′s.

6. I am tracking BA Misri and plan to refute him in total. As it stands, all of the data on him vs. Ahamdiyyat comes from 1988 and a document that anti-Ahmadis posted on a certain website. I was inquiring further which led me to your blog.

6.a. I know that Qazi Muhammad Nazeer responded to these allegations in Truth Prevails. My answers would be the same.

7. There is no proof that I have seen yet that BA Misri filed a case against Musleh Maud (ra). If there is…let me know.

As a Qadiani, you are of course a Kafir and the owners of this blog too are Kafirs though of a slightly lesser nature. In my capacity as a Great Sunni ‘Aalim, I invite you to accept Islam and be spared of eternal punishment. See how B.A. Misri converted(oops….reverted) in time and was saved. I exhort you to follow his path and become a Muslim.

You keep on repeating to me: “you were there”. I was a school boy at the time and had no knowledge of how the Woking Mission was run.

2. We visited the Woking Mosque for Eid and saw thousands of Muslims there from all over the UK. Prayers were usually led not by the appointed imam but by some invited person. So I recall praying Eid behind Lt. Col. Abdullah Baines-Hewitt when B.A. Misri was imam.

3. Your speculations about his motives, etc. may be plausible. Misri’s statement that I referred to was published in 1988. His father died in 1979.

However, I am surprised by your language when you write:

“…he may have been taken as a Lahori. However, in secret he was a Muslim… I believe Misri when he says that he became Muslim in the 1940′s”.

Your wording conveys clearly that if an Ahmadi joins the other Muslims he becomes a Muslim. So Ahmadis are non-Muslims!

4. While you said above that I have only written a few pages about this incident, you have only written four lines about Misri’s allegations against your Khalifa 2! As a scholar of the Qadiani Jamaat, you should thoroughly refute what Misri wrote. B.A. Misri is not repeating allegations he heard from somewhere, he is claiming that he was personally involved in the immoral activities of Khalifa 2. He is claiming that he was a member of a group who were involved.

“…why didnt the British govt. intercede and arrest him?”

We constantly read of people (e.g. Catholic priests, other famous figures) in U.K. got away with such activities in our own times.

But the government did intervene. Misri writes:

“Our lives were so much in danger that the Government had to detail twenty-four hours guard of military police around our house. No member of our family could go out without a police escort….”

“The wounded assailant was whisked away to a hiding place by his accomplices, but the police caught up with him by following the blood drops from his skull. He was later found guilty of murder and hanged. … the murderer’s funeral service was held with great pomp and show; the Khalifah himself lead the prayer.”

Remember, Mr Ahmadi Scholar, you introduced B.A. Misri’s statement (“Have you read B.A. Misri’s account…”) into this discussion. So you now have to provide a full, and of course scholarly, refutation of his allegations against your Jamaat.

Did you ever pray behind B.A. Misri? What did Misri’s father have to say about all of this? Was he ever interviewed?

It seems that BA Misri never publically left Ahmadiyyat until after the Woking mosque was taken from Lahori Imamate. What I mean, is that he may have been taken as a Lahori. However, in secret he was a Muslim who was waiting for the proper opportunity to hurt Ahmadis. Maybe his father could have elaborated??? I believe Misri when he says that he became Muslim in the 1940′s. However, it seems that other Ahmadis werent aware of this and he intentially kept it a secret.

B.A. Misri was somehow elected as Imam. This is confusing….what credentials did he have that caused this appointment. The selectors must have thought that since his father was a Lahori Ahmadi…his son was also a lahori Ahmadi. Why didnt his father alert the Ahmadis in the UK that his son was far from Ahmadiyyat.

In terms of Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad sahib and his charachter. I feel that he was falsely accused by those who were jealous of him. If Musleh Maud (ra) was guilty of these crimes, why didnt the British govt. intercede and arrest him?

Further, what books were sold from the Woking mission??? Were there any by Mirza sahib (as) that were sold from that location?