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	<title>Comments for The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement Blog</title>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 23:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Accusation of change of belief by Promised Messiah by Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/04/23/accusation-of-change-of-belief-by-promised-messiah/#comment-1813</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=82#comment-1813</guid>
		<description>Maybe Zahid Aziz can clarify the lahori position.

We (qadianis) believe that HMGA was totally superior to Jesus in every faucet of life.  

I think the aaiil believe that this was only in the position as messiah.

I think the point that HMGA was trying to stress was that his divine communion surpassed every single non-lawbearing prophet that ever existed.  Obviously his divine communion was not more than the HP or Moses.  Maybe even more than Abraham (not sure).

Again and again HMGA stressed this point.  His divine communion overwhelmingly surpassed Jesus.  Jesus was not even close in this respect.

The most glaring statment by HMGA is in Haqiqat-tul wahy(1907)

he writes :

“Prophethood (&lt;em&gt;nubuwwat&lt;/em&gt;) has been terminated after our Prophet … And Allah does not mean anything by my prophethood except the abundance of Divine communication … Our Messenger is the &lt;em&gt;Khatam-un-Nabiyyin,&lt;/em&gt; with whom the series of messengers has been terminated. … I have been named by Allah as &lt;em&gt;nabi&lt;/em&gt; by way of metaphor, not by way of reality (&lt;em&gt;haqiqat&lt;/em&gt;).” (&lt;em&gt;Haqiqat-ul-Wahy,&lt;/em&gt; &lt;em&gt;Zameema,&lt;/em&gt; pages 64, 65; &lt;em&gt;RK,&lt;/em&gt; vol. 22, pages 688, 689)

Get the picture ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe Zahid Aziz can clarify the lahori position.</p>
<p>We (qadianis) believe that HMGA was totally superior to Jesus in every faucet of life.  </p>
<p>I think the aaiil believe that this was only in the position as messiah.</p>
<p>I think the point that HMGA was trying to stress was that his divine communion surpassed every single non-lawbearing prophet that ever existed.  Obviously his divine communion was not more than the HP or Moses.  Maybe even more than Abraham (not sure).</p>
<p>Again and again HMGA stressed this point.  His divine communion overwhelmingly surpassed Jesus.  Jesus was not even close in this respect.</p>
<p>The most glaring statment by HMGA is in Haqiqat-tul wahy(1907)</p>
<p>he writes :</p>
<p>“Prophethood (<em>nubuwwat</em>) has been terminated after our Prophet … And Allah does not mean anything by my prophethood except the abundance of Divine communication … Our Messenger is the <em>Khatam-un-Nabiyyin,</em> with whom the series of messengers has been terminated. … I have been named by Allah as <em>nabi</em> by way of metaphor, not by way of reality (<em>haqiqat</em>).” (<em>Haqiqat-ul-Wahy,</em> <em>Zameema,</em> pages 64, 65; <em>RK,</em> vol. 22, pages 688, 689)</p>
<p>Get the picture ?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sadr Anjuman &#038; M. Nur-ud-Din by Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/07/sadr-anjuman-m-nur-ud-din/#comment-1812</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=89#comment-1812</guid>
		<description>Tahir, you have a point.

But if you read the speech by HMBMA that was delivered in 1925, HMBMA clearly writes:

"The founding principle of the Council of Trustees (Majlis-i Mu'timidin) did not include the existence of the khalifa of the time, which is the very fundamental issue in Islam.
(&lt;em&gt;Al-Fazl,&lt;/em&gt; 3 November 1925, p. 3, col. 1.) 

1.  13 out of 14 members must have been scared and shaken at the death of HMGA.  

2.  They(and the entire jamaat) decided that Hazrat Maulvi Noorudin should be in-charge.  

3.  This went against the SPECIFIC instructions of HMGA.

In the same speech of 1925, as odd as it is, HMBMA admits one major point:

A resolution has been passed during the second khilafat to the effect that the Council must accept whatever the khalifa says. But this is not a matter of principle. What it means is that a body of members says that it would do so. However, the body which is entitled to say this, can also say that it shall not do so. For, the Anjuman which can pass the resolution that it shall obey the khalifa in everything, if ten years later it says that it shall not obey him, it is entitled to do so according to the rules of the Anjuman. Or if the Anjuman says that it will obey this khalifa in everything but will not obey another one, it has the right to do so according to its rules." (&lt;em&gt;Al-Fazl,&lt;/em&gt; 3 November 1925, p. 3, col. 1.) 

HMBMA admits to everything that m. ali had ever written about successorship in this ahmadiyya community.

Here is the link

&lt;a href="http://www.muslim.org/qadis/khil2.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.muslim.org/qadis/khil2.htm&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tahir, you have a point.</p>
<p>But if you read the speech by HMBMA that was delivered in 1925, HMBMA clearly writes:</p>
<p>&#8220;The founding principle of the Council of Trustees (Majlis-i Mu&#8217;timidin) did not include the existence of the khalifa of the time, which is the very fundamental issue in Islam.<br />
(<em>Al-Fazl,</em> 3 November 1925, p. 3, col. 1.) </p>
<p>1.  13 out of 14 members must have been scared and shaken at the death of HMGA.  </p>
<p>2.  They(and the entire jamaat) decided that Hazrat Maulvi Noorudin should be in-charge.  </p>
<p>3.  This went against the SPECIFIC instructions of HMGA.</p>
<p>In the same speech of 1925, as odd as it is, HMBMA admits one major point:</p>
<p>A resolution has been passed during the second khilafat to the effect that the Council must accept whatever the khalifa says. But this is not a matter of principle. What it means is that a body of members says that it would do so. However, the body which is entitled to say this, can also say that it shall not do so. For, the Anjuman which can pass the resolution that it shall obey the khalifa in everything, if ten years later it says that it shall not obey him, it is entitled to do so according to the rules of the Anjuman. Or if the Anjuman says that it will obey this khalifa in everything but will not obey another one, it has the right to do so according to its rules.&#8221; (<em>Al-Fazl,</em> 3 November 1925, p. 3, col. 1.) </p>
<p>HMBMA admits to everything that m. ali had ever written about successorship in this ahmadiyya community.</p>
<p>Here is the link</p>
<p><a href="http://www.muslim.org/qadis/khil2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.muslim.org/qadis/khil2.htm</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Sadr Anjuman &#038; M. Nur-ud-Din by Tahir Ijaz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/07/sadr-anjuman-m-nur-ud-din/#comment-1811</link>
		<dc:creator>Tahir Ijaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 17:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=89#comment-1811</guid>
		<description>Bashir, I don't understand your statement about panic leading to choosing Maulan Nuruddin sahib as Khalifa as a precaution. Anjuman was already established in the lifetime of HMGA. It is not like people had to scramble to form a governing body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bashir, I don&#8217;t understand your statement about panic leading to choosing Maulan Nuruddin sahib as Khalifa as a precaution. Anjuman was already established in the lifetime of HMGA. It is not like people had to scramble to form a governing body.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accusation of change of belief by Promised Messiah by Tahir Ijaz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/04/23/accusation-of-change-of-belief-by-promised-messiah/#comment-1809</link>
		<dc:creator>Tahir Ijaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 02:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=82#comment-1809</guid>
		<description>Bashir,  (and Lahori brothers can correct me if I am wrong), Lahoris don't believe HMGA ever changed his views about his relative rank compared to Jesus, for Jesus was a Prophet and HMGA a non-prophet. Qadianis however interpret certain words in Haqiqatul Wahyi and Kishti Nuh as indicating a change occured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bashir,  (and Lahori brothers can correct me if I am wrong), Lahoris don&#8217;t believe HMGA ever changed his views about his relative rank compared to Jesus, for Jesus was a Prophet and HMGA a non-prophet. Qadianis however interpret certain words in Haqiqatul Wahyi and Kishti Nuh as indicating a change occured.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sadr Anjuman &#038; M. Nur-ud-Din by Tahir Ijaz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/07/sadr-anjuman-m-nur-ud-din/#comment-1808</link>
		<dc:creator>Tahir Ijaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 01:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=89#comment-1808</guid>
		<description>Correct.  He later stepped down as President but remained Khalifa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct.  He later stepped down as President but remained Khalifa.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Sadr Anjuman &#038; M. Nur-ud-Din by Tariq</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/07/sadr-anjuman-m-nur-ud-din/#comment-1803</link>
		<dc:creator>Tariq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=89#comment-1803</guid>
		<description>If I am not mistaken, Maulana Nuruddin Sahib also officially held the office of the the President of Sadr Anjuman (to be more exact, the president of the 14 member body who were the trustees of the Sadar Anjuman). He was appointed to this office when the Anjuman was formed by The Promised Messiah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I am not mistaken, Maulana Nuruddin Sahib also officially held the office of the the President of Sadr Anjuman (to be more exact, the president of the 14 member body who were the trustees of the Sadar Anjuman). He was appointed to this office when the Anjuman was formed by The Promised Messiah.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accusation of change of belief by Promised Messiah by Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/04/23/accusation-of-change-of-belief-by-promised-messiah/#comment-1802</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=82#comment-1802</guid>
		<description>Referring to what was written by Abdul Momin.

Everything you wrote is &lt;em&gt;SO&lt;/em&gt; accurate.&lt;em&gt; &lt;/em&gt; One would think that if HMGA did actually change from ummati nabi(imperfect nabi) to Ummati Nabi(perfect nabi), then he must have had to write a 200 page expose explaining this radiccal change.

Being greater than jesus was a change i admit.  But it didnt change Islam.  Turning into a perfect nabi--now that changes Islam.

In 1891 he claimed that jesus was dead.  This was a huge turnabout from his earlier views.  HMGA went at great lengths to explain this strange doctrine.  He wrote ove 2000 pages discussing this death of Jesus.  It was mandatory that he explained this new theory.

If he did change in 1901, i wish he would have explained it in further detail.  I dont see this change in all of my research.

One thing that i found on my own is that just before EGKI, 

1.  HMGA gained over 100k new members in just 2-3 years.
2.  These new members weren't fluent with the beliefs of the ahmadiyya community.
3.  He stressed that new members should read his books of 1891-1893 if they wanted to understand the beliefs of HMGA.
4.  Coincidentally the first paragraph of EGKI he echoes the same sentiment. 

Question: If he changed his view on prophethood in 1900-1901, then why was he stressing that his new members should read the books of 1891-1893.

5.  HMGA wanted to set-up an exam that would be administered yearly.  He gave books from 1891-1893 as study material.  These exams never took place.  

6.  During the khilafat of Hazrat Norrudin, somehow this was brought to his attention.  HN requested that these exams take place.  HN wanted the wish of his HMGA to be completed.  HN was also not able to complete this task.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Referring to what was written by Abdul Momin.</p>
<p>Everything you wrote is <em>SO</em> accurate.<em> </em> One would think that if HMGA did actually change from ummati nabi(imperfect nabi) to Ummati Nabi(perfect nabi), then he must have had to write a 200 page expose explaining this radiccal change.</p>
<p>Being greater than jesus was a change i admit.  But it didnt change Islam.  Turning into a perfect nabi&#8211;now that changes Islam.</p>
<p>In 1891 he claimed that jesus was dead.  This was a huge turnabout from his earlier views.  HMGA went at great lengths to explain this strange doctrine.  He wrote ove 2000 pages discussing this death of Jesus.  It was mandatory that he explained this new theory.</p>
<p>If he did change in 1901, i wish he would have explained it in further detail.  I dont see this change in all of my research.</p>
<p>One thing that i found on my own is that just before EGKI, </p>
<p>1.  HMGA gained over 100k new members in just 2-3 years.<br />
2.  These new members weren&#8217;t fluent with the beliefs of the ahmadiyya community.<br />
3.  He stressed that new members should read his books of 1891-1893 if they wanted to understand the beliefs of HMGA.<br />
4.  Coincidentally the first paragraph of EGKI he echoes the same sentiment. </p>
<p>Question: If he changed his view on prophethood in 1900-1901, then why was he stressing that his new members should read the books of 1891-1893.</p>
<p>5.  HMGA wanted to set-up an exam that would be administered yearly.  He gave books from 1891-1893 as study material.  These exams never took place.  </p>
<p>6.  During the khilafat of Hazrat Norrudin, somehow this was brought to his attention.  HN requested that these exams take place.  HN wanted the wish of his HMGA to be completed.  HN was also not able to complete this task.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Some conclusions by Zahid Aziz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/07/90/#comment-1801</link>
		<dc:creator>Zahid Aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 20:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=90#comment-1801</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That article in the Urdu &lt;em&gt;Review of Religions,&lt;/em&gt; 1904, is in fact part of a serialisation of the Promised Messiah's book &lt;em&gt;Ainah Kamalat-i Islam,&lt;/em&gt; published 1893.

I would say that M. Ali appealed to logic and reason while Mirza Mahmud Ahmad appealed to emotion.

"Winning people's hearts" is perhaps not the right way to describe exploiting people's emotions and making them live in the realm of fantasy land where they think they have triumphed over the whole world.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That article in the Urdu <em>Review of Religions,</em> 1904, is in fact part of a serialisation of the Promised Messiah&#8217;s book <em>Ainah Kamalat-i Islam,</em> published 1893.</p>
<p>I would say that M. Ali appealed to logic and reason while Mirza Mahmud Ahmad appealed to emotion.</p>
<p>&#8220;Winning people&#8217;s hearts&#8221; is perhaps not the right way to describe exploiting people&#8217;s emotions and making them live in the realm of fantasy land where they think they have triumphed over the whole world.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A claimant to be Divine Reformer by Bashir</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/05/04/a-claimant-to-be-divine-reformer/#comment-1799</link>
		<dc:creator>Bashir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 15:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=85#comment-1799</guid>
		<description>What religious denomination is he?  Qadiani or lahori?  Or was he sunni?  His website is limited in terms of data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What religious denomination is he?  Qadiani or lahori?  Or was he sunni?  His website is limited in terms of data.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accusation of change of belief by Promised Messiah by Tahir Ijaz</title>
		<link>http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/04/23/accusation-of-change-of-belief-by-promised-messiah/#comment-1797</link>
		<dc:creator>Tahir Ijaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 02:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/?p=82#comment-1797</guid>
		<description>I think there is little data about who left the jamaat and for what reasons.  It seems though remarkably few people left in 1891 considering the significant additional claims.

A selection phenomenon also occured since his remaining followers (and new ones joining) were open minded enough to accept him as the Isa ibn Maryam,  and the Imam Mahdi,  (unlike the few who left) with another ten years of major signs and prophecies fulfilled.  So the jump from 'near prophet' to an actual type of prophet (ummati and nabi)  was not taken as a stumbling block.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is little data about who left the jamaat and for what reasons.  It seems though remarkably few people left in 1891 considering the significant additional claims.</p>
<p>A selection phenomenon also occured since his remaining followers (and new ones joining) were open minded enough to accept him as the Isa ibn Maryam,  and the Imam Mahdi,  (unlike the few who left) with another ten years of major signs and prophecies fulfilled.  So the jump from &#8216;near prophet&#8217; to an actual type of prophet (ummati and nabi)  was not taken as a stumbling block.</p>
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