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October 13th, 2009

Conversation with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad, and his reply

The earlier post by Rashid Jahangiri of August 2009 in this blog is repeated below, followed by the reply he has received.

In April 2009 I talked on telephone with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib. We talked about 20 minutes. I thanked him for publishing a rational and modern translation and interpretation of Holy Quran. I specifically informed him that when I present his translation of Holy Quran to fellow Muslims, I don’t get accused of presenting Lahori-Ahmadiyya translation. And how this has made my life easy.

Dr. Shabbir sahib informed me, he has mashAllah converted over 16000 (sixteen thousand) non-Muslims, including couple of members of JihadWatch. I purchased his translation of Holy Quran and couple of other books.

Dr. Shabbir sahib was highly respectful of late Abdul Mannan Omar sahib, Khawaja Kamal Ud Din sahib, and Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib. He was highly appreciative of their works on Holy Quran and Islam. Dr. Shabbir also informed me that he talked to Mannan sahib few years ago.

I asked Dr. Shabbir sahib, in life we see a healthy tree of sweet mangos, which is capable of producing sweet mangos, but its fruit can get infected by insects and is totally wasted. As we see in case of prophet Noah’s son. But it is not possible for a sweet mango to grow on a tree, which produces some other kind of bitter fruit. So, keeping this reasoning, how is it possible that people like Mannan sahib, Kamal ud Din sahib, and Muhammad Ali sahib, towards whom you showed so much respect because of their works on Islam and knew religion so well, they not only get attracted to, rather become staunch followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of Qadian? Dr. Shabir sahib was quiet and did not answer.

We talked about 1974, 2nd constitutional amendment that declared Ahmadis (both Lahori and Qadiani) a non-Muslim. Dr. shabbir sahib was of opinion that there was no need of this amendment, because it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib who “first” declared Muslims as kafir so per hadith ‘fatwah takfir’ fell back on him. I informed him that in reality it was about 200 Muslim Ulama in India who issued a joint fatwah declaring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib a kafir. And Mirza sahib only applied hadith to point out to these opponent ulama that per hadith ‘fatwah takfir’ falls back on them and they subsequently become kafir. Dr. Shabbir sahib was quiet, and did not comment.

Dr. Shabbir sahib brought Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib writings into question.
I replied Mirza sahib had five kinds of audiences, i.e. Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sufia, and Atheists. So if we keep in our minds to what kind of audiences Mirza sahib is addressing, we are better able to understand him. Unfortunately, Muslim readers do not pay attention, while reading his books i.e. to which he is addressing and that’s were confusion originates. I gave him few examples.

I brought to Dr. Shabbir sahib attention that we see good percentage of Muslims, especially those living in Europe and Americas, are practically following Mirza sahib even if verbally they use abusive words for him. I told him, in my opinion, following 6 were Mirza sahib’s mission:
1- All reciters of Kalama-Shahada are Muslims.
2- No part of Holy Quran, not even a dot, is abrogated.
3- Allah SWT is living God. He has communicated with his chosen ones even after Rasul Allah SAWS. And this will continue.
4- Islam does not allow jihad with sword for its propagation.
5- Isa A.S. is physically dead. And will not return to earth.
6- Yajooj-Majooj and Dajjal is not supernatural animal.
Dr. Shabbir sahib did not object to any of above 6 points.

Dr. Shabir Ahmad wrote ‘Hashish From Qadian’. Dr Zahid Aziz sahib has written an article referring to this book, in ‘The Light—UK edition, May 2009’. See link here.

Based on my conversation with Dr. Shabbir sahib, I very much doubt if he has read Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib’s books. And even if he did, he did not read them carefully. And it is very likely his opinion of Hazrat Mirza sahib is based on his teacher’s opinion. I don’t know, as Shabbir sahib never mentioned to me, but this is what I have heard that he is student of Ghulam Ahmad Pervaiz sahib. And it is known fact that Pervaiz sahib was opponent of Mirza sahib and he has used strong language for him.

I will email this blog post to Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib. I would like to read his comments.

Link to Dr Shabbir Ahmad’s website.

The reply:

On October 11, 2009 Dr. Shabbir Ahmed called to inform publication of his Holy Quran Translation with Tafseer. I requested one copy. In conversation he acknowledged his appreciation of Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi sahib, and Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib. He also informed me he has English Translation of Holy Quran and Bayan Ul Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib. He expressed his believe that Isa (AS) is buried in Kashmir.

During conversation I explained to Dr. Shabbir sahib reason for HMGA to have believe that Isa (AS) was not fathered by a human, and why Maulana Noor Ud Din sahib and LAM members (unlike Qadiani Jamaat) believe that Isa (AS) was fathered by a human.

Dr. Shabbir sahib also liked my idea to start a project on his website to collect funds to send copies of his Holy Quran Translation with Tafseer to members of US Senate and House of representatives and other politicians in the country. He agreed we need to get at least two “Lord Headley” in US Senate to help US foreign policy to become fair.

I sent him copy of my earlier email with link to my post on LAM blog and Dr. Zahid Aziz sahib’s article in The Light-UK issue of May 2009. He replied to my email:

Dear Dr. Saheb, AA

I read the letter and attachment. Thanks for sending it to me! It is very interesting indeed. Also, that we humans are probably given to divergent views by the Almighty.

5:48 (O Messenger) We have sent to you this Divine Writ, setting forth the truth. It confirms the remaining truth in the earlier scriptures since it is a Watcher over them. So, judge between them by what God has revealed, and do not follow their desires diverging from the truth that has come to you. For each community among you We have appointed certain rites and a traced-out way. If God had willed, He could have made you all one single community. But He decided to let you test yourselves by what (potentials) He has granted you. So, outdo one another in doing good to the society. To God you will all return, and He will then make you understand wherein you differed. [2:101, 2:148, 3:78, 21:92-93, 23:52. Muhaimin = Watcher. Shari’ah = Rites = Usual, diverse trends of a community. Minhaaj = A traced-out way = A set of laws]

I respect Maulvi Muhammad Ali, but never kept any translations before me while I was doing QXP.

Thanks again!
Dr. Shabbir

14 Responses to “Conversation with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad, and his reply”

  1. Addendum:
    I brought into knowledge of Dr. Shabbir Ahmed sahib that HMGA has nowhere used phrase “Ummati-Nabi” in his books and ads. Rather he used two different words in different places, and in what sense he meant. And informed him about motives of those who accuse him of using phrase ‘Ummati-Nabi”. Also brought to his knowledge that HMGA has not used word Prophet (nabi) or even word Mujaddid in his 10 conditions of ba’it (pledge). All he has asked for ‘fraternal relations’ from pledgor.
    On point of how disinformation about HMGA has spread in his opponents, I quoted marhoom Abdul Mannan Omar sahib. He use to say, “I do not give credit of disinformation and references of misquotes of Hazrat Masih Mahud (HMGA) to Mulla opponents; I give this credit to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his disciples”.

  2. Post copied from Dr. Shabbir blog. He has acknowledged HMGA.


    Dr. Shabbir’s Blog
    … …

    JESUS AND MARY MIGRATED: Jesus was never crucified (4:157). He died at a ripe old age (3:46)

    23:50 And We made the son of Mary and his mother a symbol (of Our Grace). And, We gave them abode on an elevated resort, affording rest and security and fresh water springs. [They migrated from Can’aan after the attempted crucifixion 3:46. I find myself in agreement with some European researchers that the ten ‘lost’ Israelite tribes had ended up in today’s Afghanistan and Kashmir and that Jesus came searching for them. Unfortunately, many Muslims dismiss this research simply because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian endorsed their research in the 19th century. One must uphold the truth regardless of who denies it or accepts it. It is worth noting that Factor 12 deficiency in the blood is commonly found only among the Jews and the people of Afghanistan and Kashmir]

    … … 

  3. Dr. Shabbir’s translation of Quran is available for free download. How can we buy his commentary. There is no such information on his web site.

  4. From Dr. Shabbir’s Blog: ….”I find myself in agreement with some European researchers that the ten ‘lost’ Israelite tribes had ended up in today’s Afghanistan and Kashmir and that Jesus came searching for them. Unfortunately, many Muslims dismiss this research simply because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian endorsed their research in the 19th century.

    My understanding is that it was  Mirza Sahib who actually originated (and not endorsed the European research about) idea of death and burial of Jesus in Kashmir by writing “Maseeh Hindustan Mein” and to which Nooruddin Sahib contributed by getting witness signatures about the grave of a prophet in Srinagar.

    Can someone clarify this? If my understanding is correct then Rashid please correct Dr. Shabbir Sahib.

  5. Today i sent another email to Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib.
    Dear Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib,
    Aslam Alikum,
    While browsing Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement website, I came across excerpt from your book, Why I am not Christian? Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement reproduced your book excerpt in their Urdu newsletter. This excerpt was reproduced from ‘Family Magazine’ Nawa-I-Waqat Publications, Lahore. Issue May 2nd to 8th, 1999.
    I’m glad you are saying the SAME things that Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani sahib said over hundred years before you. I take it as sign of his truthfulness. You know the highest form of flattery and appreciation is imitation.
    Anyways, I’m glad you published Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani sahib’s message in a newspaper like Nawa-I-Waqat, whose animosity and zeal of spreading misunderstanding about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib is not hidden from anyone.
    I thank Allah SWT. It is all because of His blessings, He is continuing mission of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani through the hands of people like you. May Allah SWT reward you for continuing the mission of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. Ameen.
    Mahawar Khabarnama
    (Monthly Newsletter)
    January-February 2000

    Pages: 22-24

  6. quran does not indicate the coming of mahdi ect and mirza saab did not make a lasting impression or a marked difference to islams spread. Dr shabbir ahmed saab may be a follower of rashid khalif?.allah knows best

  7. August 20th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Dear Abu Kiran, Perhaps you would care to ponder on the work of the Woking Muslim Mission started by the inspiration of Hazrat Mirza sahib, and its role in the spread of Islam. Please see the mission’s history website.

    Even today researchers contact me, as creator/editor of that website, for information in our records about famous Woking-associated personalities.

    Rashad Khalifa came to believe in the end that there are three superfluous verses in the Quran (in ch. 9) and his mission was to have them removed, because they do not fit his 19 theory. I am sure Dr Shabbir, like all Muslims, believes in the Quran which all Muslims recognise and accept.

  8. br.zahid aziz

    I have had the opportunity to meet ahmadi muslims and became friends with educated ahmadis and an english convert to ahmadia too.

    I have also read ahmadia books.

    I am still not convinced of hazrat mirza sahib ie he was a mahdi and a messiah or that there was a need for a messiah or a mahdi at that time and also wether hazrat mirza saab did anything leaving a lasting intelectual impression in literary circles. Nothing of high quality.

    There have been many many people such as rashid khalia , mirza saahib, ghulam ahmed pervaiz, dr shabbir ahmed who even questions virgin birth and other mircles . Or anything they can not comprehend with their limited minds and understanding. They ape the western secular mind set and parameters.

    Modern muslim scholars have contributed to changes and Misguiding in how we should test and understand islam , the quran, the prophets life and hadih. confusing people in the name of modern enlightened scientific understanding of islam .

    Do these people matter – answer is no . because allah guides to his way whom ever allah wills.
    Misguidance only comes from people . Guidance comes from allah. I seek guidance and his help in undestanding his message.

  9. August 22nd, 2012 at 8:20 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Regarding the comment that “whether Hazrat Mirza saab did anything leaving a lasting intelectual impression in literary circles. Nothing of high quality”, you have to say what you consider to be “intellectual and high quality”. For example, you should say who in your opinion comes up to this standard?

    The following are opinions of some of Hazrat Mirza sahib’s contemporaries about the quality of his work and his thought:

    ” …M. Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, probably the profoundest theologian among modern Indian Muhammadans” (Iqbal)

    “… The incomparable books which he wrote in refutation of the Arya Samaj and Christian creeds,   … ”

    “justice requires that one should condole the sudden and untimely death of such a resolute defender of Islam, helper of the Muslims, and an eminent and irreplaceable scholar.”

    “The Mirza sahib was specially renowned for his knowledge and scholarship. His writings were also eloquent.”

    “He had vast knowledge, not only of his own religion, but also of other religions. And he was able to use his vast knowledge with great finesse.”

    “The state of ecstacy created by reading his invaluable books which were written to counter other religions and to uphold Islam, still has not faded.”    

    I am afraid you are wrong in categorising Hazrat Mirza sahib with Rashad Khalifa, G.A. Pervaiz and Shabbir Ahmad, in terms of their views on miracles or aping the Western secular mindset. He has expressed very strongly the opposite of the views of these writers on these issues. If you read any writing at all of Hazrat Mirza sahib, you will find this to be the case.

    Who could be a greater intellectual than one who actually produced several intellectuals among his followers, as Hazrat Mirza sahib did? Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din are recognised as intellectuals by many other Muslim scholars, and these two intellectuals were set on their way by Hazrat Mirza sahib.

  10. October 7th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
    From Syed Waqas:

    It’s indeed great to know that Muslim intellectuals, such as Dr. Shabbir Ahmad, are working in all corners of the world for the Renaissance of Islamic revolution. I personally respect Dr. Shabbir Ahmad for his remarkable work in the footsteps of his teacher. They are indeed among the pioneers of the modernizing movement of Islamic thought today.
    On the other hand, insofar as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani’s stance is considered, one cannot but reject his claims in the light of the Quran and Hadith. Why so? Let us not blame him for anything he claimed and proclaimed; but we only are to test his claims against the touchstone of Quran and Sunnah. For instance, if we quote one Quranic verse or Hadith in his favor, which only partially supports his case, we have almost half dozen of such witnesses against him. His whole work, in fact, revolves around the speculative Sufi teachings, traditions and stations, which nowhere find an honest support from Quran or from the life of the Prophet (S.A.W.W.) himself.
    If we were to talk about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only in the light of reason and possibility, that would have been a different case. However, when he claims to perfect Islam, he deserves more critical assessment from Islamic point of view, especially on his claims of “Ilhaam”, his meetings with previous Prophets and Saints, his assumption of the title “Prophet”, his authority to abrogate any of the Islamic pillars or erect new ones and his knowledge of the ancient. From a psychological perspective, Mirza Sahib could have been “hallucinated” rather than “revealed” or “inspired”. One must not overlook this particular side of the case.
    Dr. Shabbir Ahmad did well in his work on Qadianism, “Hashish from Qadian”. The matter of fact is that we can in no way entertain the anachronic, paradoxical, and unscientific claims originated in the soil of Qadian as “Islamic” ones. Dr. Shabbir’s work really shows the rational side of the case, where Mirza Sahib is not approached in a traditional “theological” way; instead, it has been done according to a method we desperately need to employ today even on the Sufi mystics’ claims and works.
    May the Lord of the Universe bless all who strive for Truth. Ameen

  11. October 8th, 2012 at 5:47 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Please see at this link, from pages 5 to 8, my article of 2009 about Dr Shabbir Ahmad’s book ‘Hashish from Qadian’ and, on the other hand, the close similarities between his interpretation of various verses of the Quran and that of Maulana Muhammad Ali. I concluded:

    “The crucial point to be made is that on the grounds of holding the various views listed above, we have been denounced and condemned by the orthodox Ulama as distorting the Quran and denying the accepted interpretations of Islam, and thus excluded from the fold of Islam. … The same quarters would no doubt condemn Dr Shabbir as a heretic at least on par with, and probably even worse than, the Ahmadis.

    The irony is that the very constituency whose approbation and approval Dr Shabbir is seeking by writing his book Hashish from Qadian, the gallery to which he is playing, will declare him to be in the same category as Ahmadis, if not worse.”

  12. is it ture that interfaith marriage is prohibitted in islam? true religion never seperates humans. i strongly believe god have great understanding, should not seperate us on the basis of concept of god, or rituals, every man is innocent about god's concept because all believe religional book what their parents give them. should humanities comes after god's concept?

  13. May 17th, 2014 at 10:28 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Shabina, Islam explicitly allows a Muslim man to marry a woman belonging to a religion which is based on Divine revelation. He can marry a Jew or Christian, for example. The Quran says:

    "This day (all) good things are made lawful for you. And the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And so are the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you, when you give them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for lovers in secret." (5:5)

    Islam does not mention anywhere allowing a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim, and from this it is concluded that it is not allowed.

    Please note that a Jewish or Christian woman marrying a Muslim man would enter a household where her prophets and scrip­tures are believed in; while in the converse case a Muslim woman would be entering a household where the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran are not believed in.

    In addition, a Muslim man is bound by the religion of Islam to allow his Jewish or Christian wife to follow and practise her faith. But a non-Muslim man is not bound by his religion to allow his Muslim wife to follow her faith (although I don't deny that an individual himself might allow it).

    Also note that this verse allows a Muslim man to marry a woman of the People of the Book only under the condition that the two of them follow the same code of pre-marital sexual morality as would apply if both of them were Muslims. We also see here that Islam recognises that there are chaste women among the People of the Book, who are as morally good as any Muslim woman.

  14. May 24th, 2014 at 5:33 am
    From Dil Sooz:

    Dr Shabir Ahmad is no doubt different then many orthodox Mullah types in his interpertation of Quranic Verses. But, even though, he agrees with Lahore Ahmadiyya point of view regarding death of Jesus PBUH & marriage of blessed Mary, he wants to play it safe. He cannot resist "identifying with agressor" i.e brutal/illogical orthodoxy. 

    Following Urdu couplet expresses his dilemma in a very nice manner.

    saaf chuphtey bhee nahee, samney attey bhee nahee

    yeh kaisa parda hai kay chilmun say lagey baithey hein

    (My poor attempt at translation: My beloved neither hides nor is explicit, Oh my! what a dilemma! my beloved is just partially hidden behind the veil)

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