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October 21st, 2009

Does the sunna abrogate the Koran?

Submitted by Bashir.

Chapter 4 Does the sunna abrogate the Koran?

1. Imam Shafi vehemently denied that the Koran had ever abrogated the sunna, or that the sunna had ever abrogated the Koran (see Burton).

2. Imam Shafi argued that the Koran only abrogated the Koran and the sunna only abrogated the sunna (see Burton).

Burton writes: We have heard that the death penalty for adultery allegedly introduced by Muhammad still formed part of the Islamic Law. Shafi’s contemporaries continued to argue, as their teachers had argued, that that is but one instance of the of the abrogation of the Koran by the sunna…..But the stubborn fact remained obvious to everyone with eyes to see : that earlier punishment had been established by the Koran:24:2—

“The adulteress and the adulterer, flog each of them (with) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you from obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.”

Burton writes: Imam shafi was driven to accept the there were some koranic verses that were no longer in the Koran.

Note: In early Islam all the judges(qazis) that were present in Islamic nations, they ruled based on the Koran. Their day to day modus operandi was based on the Koran and the sunna (this is pre-Bukhari).

22 Responses to “Does the sunna abrogate the Koran?”

  1. My response is off topic, but in context to the above quoted verse. I am amazed by the fairness and wisdom in Quran.

    Firstly, it sets high standards for morality with a quite severe punishment:

    24:2. Strike the fornicatress and adulteress and the fornicator and adulterer on the body of each one of them a hundred times. (This is the extreme limit,) and let no feelings of pity for the two hold you from obedience to Allâh (in executing His judgment), if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a section of the believers be present (there at the time of the execution of) their punishment.

    Secondly it identifies the psychology of such behavior, as such a behavior does not happen out of the blue, but reflects more of a pattern:

    24:3. The fornicator and adulterer cannot have sexual relations (without lawful marriage) except with a fornicatress and adulteress or polytheistic woman (of low morality), and the fornicatress and adulteress, none can have sexual relations with her except a fornicator and adulterer or a polytheistic man (of low morality). And this (adultery and fornication) is forbidden to the believers.

    Thirdly, the bar for accusation is even higher. It is quite unusual to have four witnesses to such a planning or act. See for yourselves, how vehemently the Quran protects woman’s dignity and rights:

    24:4. Strike eighty times on the bodies of those who calumniate chaste women and who do not support (their accusation) with four witnesses, and never accept their testimony (because) it is they who are the disobedient (and break the law);

    Fourthly, as usual, forgiveness is the spirit of Islam:

    24:5. Except those who repent after this and make amends, they will find Allâh Great Protector, Ever Merciful.

    Subsequently, Quran zooms into the basic unit of society, i.e. married couple and how amicably, it resolves such a situation with a living God taking the whole case unto Himself:

    24:6. And those who charge their wives of adultery and have no witnesses (to support their charge) except their own selves, let each (husband) bear testimony (repeating it) four times over calling Allâh to witness that he is surely of those who speak the truth in (the matter of) charging his wife (of adultery).
    24:7. And the fifth (time he should say on oath) that Allâh’s wrath be upon him if he be of the liars.
    24:8. But it shall avert the punishment from her (- the wife) if she calling Allâh to witness testifies four times over that he is of the liars (in bringing this charge against her).
    24:9. And the fifth (time she should say on oath) that the wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (- her husband) has spoken the truth (about her).
    24:10. But for Allâh’s grace and His mercy (which rests) upon you and (but for the fact) that Allâh is Oft-Returning (with compassion), All-Wise (you would have come to grief).

    [The Holy Quran – Allamah Nooruddin]

  2. Also note that in the oath taking of the husband and the wife in 24:6-9, the Quran treats the oaths of the man and the woman to be of equal value and weight. Even the eye-witness evidence of the husband against his wife, without other witnesses, is cancelled out by a denial by the wife.

    I heard in a broadcast recently that in England in the 19th century a husband could get his wife thrown in jail by making an allegation against her, and in fact he had total legal control over his wife. Under the Zia-ul-Haq hudood ordinance in Pakistan, there have been cases in which husbands had their wives arrested by simply reporting an allegation without evidence.

  3. And of course under Zia’a hudood ordinance, the 4 witness condition for accusing a woman was done away with in case the said woman is unable to prove an accusation of rape made by her…the logic being that if she is unable to prove rape then she has by default confessed to having had unlawful sexual intercourse willfully. People will remember the case of the poor blind girl who was imprisoned and condemned to be lashed under this. The maulvis were very proud of this…the “ghairat” of the Muslims had been preserved.

  4. It is obvious that abrogation played a major role in the decision making process of the early judges in Islamic society.

    Burton is claiming that a pronuncement by the HP, which is not in the Koran, this pronouncement allowed the death penalty for people who “cheated” on their spouse.

    Islamic society followed a tradition of the HP, they believed that this tradition superceded the Koranic injunction posted above.

    In a like manner, the prophet told the muslims to pray towards Jerusalem, the koran abrogated that command.

    Muslims obeyed the word of Muhammad just as they obeyed the word of the Koran, especially in Muhammads time.

    This idea must be further investigated. If Muhammad said it, the muslims did it, irregardless if the allah had said it YET.

    Muslims followed allah and his messenger!!!! Anything that Muhammad said was from allah.

  5. As far as HP Muhammad (pbuh) vs the Quran is concerned…Today the issue is really a non-issue. We all know that the authenticity of the Quran is beyond doubt (for Muslims), which is not the case with Ahadith. So obviously no Hadith can abrogate the Quran….which is the Ahmadi point of view…..In fact Ahmadis argue that the reverse is true (although abrogation is probably not the correct term to use in this context)…. All that needs to be investigated is what Ahadith today contradict the Quran…and lot of issues will resolve quite nicely…

  6. I am asking the readers to imagine a time during the life of the HP. Remember the Koran was not in book form, the Koran was not readily available to read. If the HP issued an order, how do you think that muslims responded to that order?

    Also, how did muslims differentiate between the Koranic wording that Muhammad spoke of, and his other non-prophetic inspiration.

    Is it possible that some of this stuff was mixed up? If muhammad said something, how did the muslims know whether this was the word of Allah as opposed to the word of Muhammad. Didnt the koranic utterances and the word of Muhammad have the same source, i.e. Allah.

    All muslims believe that the second coming of Jesus and the Imam mahdi (there are some in-direct utterances) are not clearly mentioned in the Koran. Is it possible that there are some chapters that were lost? Is it possible that some traditions elude to these lost chapters?

  7. The Quran was recited in public prayers, more than once everyday. After the Hijra Muslims openly held prayers during the last ten years of the Holy Prophet’s life. The Holy Prophet himself led the prayers where he was present. All hearers therefore knew what constituted the Quran.

    The “word of Muhammad” was spoken by him in conversation or preaching as any human being speaks. For the Quranic revelation, the Holy Prophet went into a state of revelation which people saw him go into, and afterwards he told them what had been revealed, and got his scribes to write it down.

    Let alone Muslims, even the rejectors of Islam knew what was the Quran and what was the word of the Prophet.

    The Holy Prophet once said something harsh to a girl which she felt she did not deserve. He later retracted this and said that as a human being he also could lose his temper, and therefore he had obtained a promise from Allah that if he loses his temper and says something harsh to someone which they do not deserve, then Allah would convert his condemnation  into a prayer for that person. This shows that the words of the Holy Prophet were not automatically taken as being from Allah. In the kind of situations mentioned here, his words would be reversed by Allah!

    (Sahih Muslim, Book 32, numbers 6285-6297. See this link. This particular report is 6297. )

  8. 1. My question was, during the time of Hazrat Umar, how did ZAid and other compilers differentiate between what was Koran and what wasnt?

    1.a. The idea here is that Muhammad’s non-koranic speech was also inspired by Allah.

    1.b. Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali and Uthman were not HAFIZS of the Koran. If they were.. please show me a reference.

    2. I am realizing that it was hard to differentiate between the personal words of Muhammad (which was also inspired by Allah) and the Koranic words of Muhammad.

    3. Most of the info on abrogation concerns the rules of Islam. Punishments and orders. If Muhammad ordered his army to charge the meccans, the muslims responded as if allah had told them to do so.

    4. Muslims considered the speech of Muhammad as the speech of allah.

    5. The understanding that I received from this quote from sahih muslim is this: If Muhammad makes a mistake in any of his decisions, Allah will step in and cause some type of reward to happen, instead of the curse that Muhammad invoked.

    5.a. Chapter 4 Verse 69:

    And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.

    6. I found 1958 instances where the Koran asks muslims to obey allah and his messenger.

    I rest my case!!!

  9. Does wahi-matlu refer to the recitation of the Quran (Wahi) in prayers, or does it refer to the fact that it was recited to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) by Jibril (AS)?

  10. 1. Because the Holy Prophet told them what was to be included in the Quran, and where to place it.

    1a. Just having a statement or idea “inspired by Allah” is different from receiving revelation in the form of words during a spiritual and bodily experience which the Holy Prophet underwent that people actually observed.

    1b. Maulana Muhammad Ali writes in his Introduction to the translation of the Quran: “In fact, many persons are mentioned as being able to recite the whole of the Quran from memory in the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, among these being the four Caliphs, viz., Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali …” (p. I-64). He doesn’t give a particular source but means that we come across this in reports.

    2. This report may help. “Uthman said: It was customary with the Messenger of Allah, when portions of different chapters were being revealed to him, that when any verse was revealed, he sent for one of his scribes and told him to write down those verses in the chapter where such and such verses occurred.” (Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi).

    3. If during the course of a battle any commander ordered Muslims to charge, they responded as if Allah had told them. But before the battle of Uhud when the Holy Prophet conducted a consultation, his opinion was that they should stay within Madina and not go out to fight the Quraish, but the majority wanted to go out to fight. That was then agreed by the Holy Prophet because other people wanted it.

    4. This is a repeat of your other points.

    5. In that hadith the Holy Prophet clearly states that as a human being he could say the wrong thing out of being displeased.

    6. Please try reading through your search results! Do you really think that 30% of the verses of the Quran (1958 out of about 6400) tell Muslims to obey the Holy Prophet?

    You have searched for “Obey Allah and his Messenger” and the 1958 results include all verses where any of these words occur! For example, on page 2 of the results:

    “And now when there has come to them a Messenger from Allah, fulfilling that which is with them, a party of the people to whom the Book was given have thrown the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if they knew it not.”

    Here the result highlights “and”, “Messenger” and “Allah”!

    Here is another point:

    According to the well-known incident of 58:1, a woman complained to the Holy Prophet that her husband had put her away by “zihar”. The Holy Prophet said he could not do anything about it. The woman did not take this as the inspired word of Allah. She prayed to Allah, Who revealed to the Holy Prophet:

    “Allah indeed has heard the plea of her who pleads with thee about her husband and complains to Allah; and Allah hears the contentions of both of you.”

    She appealed to Allah regarding the decision of the Holy Prophet, and Allah, hearing the contentions of both of them, revealed to him the Divine decision.

  11. An idea to reflect upon

    Sahih Bukhari:

    Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:
    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

    who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra’ were killed). ‘Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, ‘Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra’ (those who know the Qur’an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur’an.” Abu Bakr added, “I said to ‘Umar, ‘How can I do something which Allah’s Apostle has not done?’ ‘Umar said (to me), ‘By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.’ So ‘Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as ‘Umar.” (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). “You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur’an and collect it (in one manuscript). ” By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur’an. I said to both of them, “How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):–

    “Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)” (9.128)

    The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with ‘Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar’s daughter.


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511:
    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

    Abu Bakr sent for me and said, “You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah’s Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur’an and collect) it.” I started searching for the Qur’an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):

    ‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty …’ (9.128-129)


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 550:
    Narrated Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, “It is a bad thing that some of you say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such verse of the Qur’an,’ for indeed, he has been caused (by Allah) to forget it. So you must keep on reciting the Qur’an because it escapes from the hearts of men faster than camel do.”


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 558:
    Narrated Aisha:

    Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur’an at night, and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.”


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 559:
    Narrated Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, “Why does anyone of the people say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur’an)?’ He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget.”

    I will elaborate on this data on my lunch break.

  12. Earlier Bashir was arguing that Muslims took anything the Holy Prophet said as being exactly what Allah said. Now he is saying (Number 558) that the Holy Prophet took what others recited as being the word of Allah, which he had forgotten!

    Why didn’t the Holy Prophet say: because I have forgotten these verses, therefore they were never part of the Quran, or even if they were, then they are no longer part of the Quran?

    It is a matter of our daily experience that upon hearing someone say something which we already know, we become aware of some aspect or implication of it in a new way or in a way that is not in our mind at the time. “I was caused to forget” does not necessarily mean that he did not remember the text of the verses. It may well mean that he had forgotten that the verses support a certain point. Perhaps in some earlier conversation the Holy Prophet had forgotten to mention those verses while teaching a certain point, and when he heard this man recite them he was reminded of them. It does not mean that the Holy Prophet had forgotten them in his regular recitation of the Quran.

  13. I was arguing that whatever Muhammad said had as much weight as the words of Allah. I argued that there were many verses from the Koran that asked muslims to “obey allah AND HIS MESSENGER”. This catch phrase was synonymous. Muslims did not view these two entities as seperate.

    I had asked readers to envision a time when the Koran was very small, and not all muslims had more than 50% memorized. I argued that muslims must have relied on tradition heavily at times.

    I argued that the word of Muhammad was inspired more than the word of any other prophet/human.

    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 559:
    Narrated Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, “Why does anyone of the people say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur’an)?’ He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget.”

    ^ in this sahih hadith, Muhammad is saying that Allah causes him to forget koranic verses from time to time. At one point you (and m. ali) had argued that there wasnt 1 hadith that was linked to Muhammad in terms of abrogation. I am arguing that this tradition is very close. An argument CAN be made using this reference that Muhammad forgot portions of the koran from time to time.

    Also this tradition shows people did accuse Muhammad of forgetting verses. Muhammad clearly admonishes people for accusing him of forgetfullness. Once again it is very clear what MUhammad was saying in this tradition.

  14. Obeying the Holy Prophet did not mean that his statements were regarded as word-for-word revelations. In 4:59 it is added to this expression: “and obey those in authority from among you”. Does that mean their words are like the Quran as well?

    In these incidents where he “forgot”, why didn’t he then say that “Allah will reveal something to replace it”, if this forgetting is related to abrogation?

    No person “accused” the Holy Prophet of forgetting.

    According to the Quran, it was a basic part of the Holy Prophet’s mission to recite the messages of Allah to his followers and teach them the Book (2:151, 3:164). It was not the other way around, that they recited the messages he had forgotten and they taught him the Book! No report can be taken in a sense which makes it contradict the Quran.

    It is recorded that on some occasion the Holy Prophet mistakenly said the wrong number of rakahs in a prayer. This does not mean that he forgot the knowledge that, for example, the maghrib prayer has 3 rakahs. It means he thought he had performed 3 rakahs but had not.

  15. I admit that you have a point when you show that the Koran also says to obey those in authority over you. Obviously there words do not have koranic origin. But they are inspired by the HP.

    What you are overlooking is that in a military society when a leader relays an order from the general(muhammad), disobeying that order is the same as disobeying the general. Disobeying a lieutenant of Muhammad was equal to disobeying muhammad.

    I showed a hadith from bukhari, here are the highlights of that hadith:

    1. some people accused the HP of forgetting verses.
    2. the HP responded by saying that allah causes him to forget.

    Thats the end of the hadith, I cant speculate in terms of the context, I dont know when this happened. “hadith people” forgot to arrange hadith chronologically, if they had done so we would be able to further analyze Islam.

    Example: what came first khatman nabiyeen or la nabiyeea badi? We know when 33:40 was revealed, but we will never know in terms of what year the HP first spoke the words LA NABEEYA BADI.

    You wrote that no one accused the HP of forgetting. Are we reading the same tradition? Did you read what I read?

    The Prophet said, “Why does anyone of the people say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur’an)?’ He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget.”

    Is it possible that the HP forgot verses from time to time? Yes it is, I found 5 hadith about forgetting verses, do i have to show them ?

    If the HP could forget the amount of rakas due to an honest error, isnt it possible that he forgot other things due to honest error.



    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 550:
    Narrated Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, “It is a bad thing that some of you say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such verse of the Qur’an,’ for indeed, he has been caused (by Allah) to forget it. So you must keep on reciting the Qur’an because it escapes from the hearts of men faster than camel do.”

    1. Muhammad is asking muslims to continue to recite the Koran so that they dont ever forget it, and he admits that it is hard to remember.


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 556:
    Narrated Aisha:

    The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur’an in the mosque and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah.”


    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 558:
    Narrated Aisha:

    Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur’an at night, and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.”

  16. Bashir has quoted the following to show that Muslims “accused” the Holy Prophet of forgetting verses:

    The Prophet said, “Why does anyone of the people say, ‘I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur’an)?’ He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget.”

    Even a small amount of reflection will show that “I” in the words “I have forgotten” is not the Holy Prophet! The Holy Prophet is quoting a (hypothetical) person as saying: “I” (meaning that person).

  17. I am not sure if Muslims accused the HP or not.  I think it was the Jews and Koraish.  I think I had some other data from the tafsir of Ibn Abbas and suyuti which helps in understanding these statements. 

    When the disbelievers began to deride the matter of abrogation, saying that one day Muhammad enjoins his Companions to one thing and then the next day he forbids it, God revealed: And whatever verse (mā is the conditional particle), that has been revealed containing a judgement, We abrogate, either together with its recital or not [that is only its judgement, but its recital continues]; there is a variant reading, nunsikh, meaning ‘[Whatever verse] We command you or Gabriel to abrogate’, or postpone, so that We do not reveal the judgement contained in it, and We withhold its recital or retain it in the Preserved Tablet; a variant reading [of nunsi’hā] is nunsihā, from ‘to forget’: so ‘[Whatever verse We abrogate] or We make you forget, that is, We erase from your heart’; the response to the conditional sentence [begun with mā] is: We bring [in place] a better, one that is more beneficial for [Our] servants, either because it is easier [to implement] or contains much reward; or the like of it, in terms of religious obligation and reward; do you not know that God has power over all things?, including abrogating and substituting [verses]? (the interrogative here is meant as an affirmative).


    Then Allah mentions what was abrogated of the Qur’an and that which was not abrogated, as a direct reference to the claim of the Quraysh who said to the Prophet: O Muhammad! Why do you command us to do something and then forbid it, saying: (Such of Our revelations as We abrogate) We do not erase a verse that was acted upon before and which is now not acted upon (or cause to be forgotten) or leave unabrogated so that it is acted upon, (We bring one better) We send Gabriel with that which more profitable and easier to act upon (or the like) in reward, benefit and action. (Knowest thou not) O Muhammad (that Allah is Able to do all things?) of the abrogated and unabrogated

    Even if “I” is a hypothetical person,which I find it hard to understand it as such.  Even so, this hypothetical person forgets.  Men forgot the Koran from time to time.  Memories come and go.  Even hafizs’ in todays day and age forget the koran, but they soon are reminded of that portion that they forgot.  Muhammad at the very least temporarily forgot verses.  I provided references above to prove that.

    I provided a hadith where zaid bin thabit claimed that he found 2 verses with one person that he couldnt find with anyone else.  Zaid also claimed that collecting the Koran was a very hard task, he even said the HP didnt do that, why was abu bakr doing it?

    Also, I provided sahih hadith in which the HP claimed that memorizing the koran was hard and required continous repitition.  

    The evidence that I submitted is overwhelming. 

  18. The only overwhelming evidence is that, as far back as we go in time, and wherever we go in the world, there is only one and the same written text of the Quran.

    What Zaid was searching for was the writings of the revelations made in the Holy Prophet’s presence. It was these writings that were difficult to find.

    As to being hard to remember, the Holy Quran says four times in ch. 54:

    “And certainly We have made the Quran easy to remember, but is there any one who will mind?” (54:17, 22, 32, 40).

    This is the translation of nearly all translators. A hadith report cannot be taken in a sense so clearly opposed to the Quran.

  19. I agree, the Koran has never been changed.  But, I find it very odd that the second coming of Jesus is not “directly” spoken of in the Koran.  Should we then discard all hadith about the second coming? 

    Also,didnt you mention that you think that the commentary by Ibn Abbas that we currently have is not in original form?  Didnt you write that this commentary must have been tampered with?

    The collection of the Koran was not an easy task, there are numerous reports that suggest this assertion.  Uthman was assasinated because of a related event.  The shias claim that much of the Koran was lost.  These ideas that I presented are not alien.

    I dont know as to exactly what Zaid was referring to.  Bukhari does not give context or detailed commentary per hadith.  On the surface it sounds like some guy had 2 verses of the Koran that didnt exist anywhere else at all.  It could mean that this guy was the only one who had these 2 verses written down.  You can choose whatever interpretation that fits your religous criteria.  I choose an interpretation based on neutrality. 

    I have asked this before, in the opinion of the aaiil what percentage of Bukhari is incorrect, is it 5% or 10%.  How did Bukhari error in collecting hadith?  If Bukhari is open to error, then, what other errors did he make?  Someone should write an article detailing the mistakes of Imam Bukhari.  I remember M. ali wrote that Bukhari errored in terms of a traditionthat stated that Abraham lied on 4 occassions, M. ali argued that Abraham was a prophet and never lied in his life. 

  20. I think I have covered all your latest points previously, but will do so in brief again. AAIIL members have spent all their history in responding to arguments of other sides, but we don’t wish to waste time repeating ourselves and going round in circles.

    I have again and again repeated that we don’t accept hadith reports in senses opposed to the Quran but interpret them to conform to the Quran. So the reports about the second coming of Jesus can’t be taken literally as (on many grounds) this is contrary to the Quran. We have interpreted them to conform to the Quran (that is a full, separate discussion).

    I can’t see the relevance of your point about the so-called Ibn Abbas commentary here. I merely quoted other Muslim scholars as saying that there is no link from its narrators back to Ibn Abbas. If you can show that this commentary is a generally-accepted source among Muslims, I will consider the matter again.

    Uthman’s assassins accepted the same text of the Quran as Uthman. As to Shiahs, Sir William Muir wrote that it is inconceivable that the supporters of Ali after coming to power would have “tolerated a mutilated Quran, mutilated expressly to destroy their leader’s claims. Yet we find that they continued to use the same Quran …”

    As to what Zaid was collecting, how did he know when he found those two verses of ch. 9 that they were the last ones he needed, and there wasn’t any more? Because he knew the total contents of the Quran already from the memorisers. Then there is this report in Bukhari:

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 62:
    Narrated Kharija bin Zaid:

    Zaid bin Thabit said, “When the Quran was compiled from various written manuscripts, one of the Verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing which I used to hear Allah’s Apostle reciting. I could not find it except with Khuzaima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah’s Apostle regarded as equal to the witness of two men. And the Verse was:– “Among the believers are men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah.” (33.23)

    Zaid knew this verse already, but was still searching for it! This is because, as he says here, he was compiling “written manuscripts”.

    In answer to your question about Bukhari, please see my reply above. Maulana Muhammad Ali (along with a collaborater) wrote a voluminous commentary of Sahih Bukhari in Urdu, where he has noted which reports cannot be taken at face value (but need interpretation), and the few that cannot be accepted at all (such as Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277, which tells the story that the Israelites were shown Moses naked, by a miracle, to dispel their gossip about him).

  21. ZA: you have consistently answered all of my questions for about 3 years now. I appreciate the time that you take for me.

    I was reading the new issue of the light just yesterday and I wondered as to how busy you really are.

    1. I NOW understand how the aaiil treats hadith reports, i skimmed M. ali’s writings on the issue.

    1.a. I am different, I think that sahih bukhari is extremely accurate. Finding errors in Bukhari is against the foundations of studying Islam–in my opinion.

    2. As far as the ibn abbas commentary goes. I umderstand what you have wrote. I am looking for a definitive answer in terms of its authenticity. Obviously, all ahmadis(q & l) must dismiss this as “tampered with”. If this is in fact the original form, then, it is factual that all muslims always believed that Jesus was alive and awaiting NUZUL.

    3. As far as the shias go. They deserve their own seperate discussion. I merely was showing that there are some muslims who accuse the mainstream of tampering with the Koran.

    4. I think that you are correct in terms of Zaid and his collection of the Koran. I totally agree with what you wrote above.

    5. I am planning to read M. ali’s chapter in his book Religion of Islam about the sunna or hadith. Also I found a book called a manual of hadith. I will add these to my list of reading material.

    I love to read about religion. It is very interesting to read about the progession of man/woman.

  22. If any of my responses have shown impatience or exasperation, it is a human failing on my part.

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