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June 27th, 2010

Will LAM allow other muslims to use any of their mosques?

Islamic Knight sent me the above question (the first in a list), but first I must tell readers how it arose.

Islamic “Einstein” made a dazzling discovery from one of the biographies of our elders in the HOPE Bulletin, and e-mailed me that a brother of Maulana Muhammad Ali did not want to pray behind non-Ahmadis and that: “he even went to court and won a case which allowed him to read his prayers separately in a mosque.”

Please see the March 2009 issue of HOPE, p. 6, under heading “Issue of Masjid”.

To any normal person, what the above account conveys is that there was an abandoned, disused mosque in an area of a certain town. In 1907 or so, Ahmadis, led by Maulvi Aziz Bakhsh (Maulana Muhammad Ali’s brother), repaired it and started using it for prayers and other functions. Seeing this, the opponents brought their own maulvi to the mosque, and started disrupting the Ahmadi use of the mosque. This led to altercations between the two sides, and the district magistrate called both sides to his court. He asked each side if they objected to the other’s use of the mosque for prayer. Maulvi Aziz Bakhsh replied that Ahmadis had no objection. But the Sunnis replied that Ahmadis could not be allowed in as the mosque belonged to the Hanafis. The magistrate recognised that the Sunni side was the trouble-maker, and allowed Ahmadis to continue using the mosque.

Islamic Knight keeps on repeating the falsehood that Ahmadis “went to court”, as if they sued in court. They were called to court, like the Sunnis. It was not at all, as he represents, that Ahmadis were allowed by the Sunnis to pray behind them, but they went to court asking for the right of a separate service. The Sunnis wanted Ahmadis expelled. The Ahmadis told the magistrate that they didn’t want the Sunnis expelled, and that if they wish to pray separately they can do so.

Islamic Knight says that never mind that the mosque was derelict and disused. Because it was built by Sunnis, it belonged to them and they had the right to bar Ahmadis from it. This is why he has asked me the question: “Would the LAM allow other muslims to use any of their mosques and hold separate prayer services?”

Before giving further explanation, let me say that the answer is YES.

If praying is their objective, and not expelling us from our mosque, then they are most welcome. Note that our opponent Muslims don’t even consider that our mosques can be called mosques, and there is a law in Pakistan that Ahmadis can’t call their “places of worship” as mosques. So why would they want to come? But if any of them did wish to come and pray, then we would take that as a sign that they regard our mosques as mosques, and certainly by implication they regard us as Muslims.

Their reason for praying in our mosques could be that they regard them as providing an atmosphere more conducive to salaat than their own mosques!

By coming to pray in our mosques, they would at least see that we pray in the same way as they do. They would have to accept that the direction that our prayer area is facing is the correct direction.

We would say to them: why hold separate services? Hold one combined service with one of you as imam, and hold the next combined service with one of us as imam.

When the Woking Mosque in England was under the management of imams of the LAM (1913 to mid 1960s), Muslims of all sects came to the mosque, and quite frequently on big occasions someone from another sect (including Shiahs) would lead the whole congregation. Conversely, many famous figures in the Muslim world prayed behind LAM imams at the Woking Mosque.

Since the Woking Mosque has been under Barelvi control in the past 40 years, any LAM member would be expelled from even being present in the mosque.

12 Responses to “Will LAM allow other muslims to use any of their mosques?”

  1. In May 2009, I went to see Shah Jehan mosque, Woking. When I got there Mughrab prayer had already started. I joined the congregation in last row. After the prayer I took few photos inside and outside mosque. Short time later I heard loud chanting from the Imam’s residence on the premises. As I got close I saw people chanting and shaking heads. I was very disappointed to see them. Names of few prominent Muslim intellectuals and important personalities from England and Muslim countries names went through my head who had offered prayers on the grounds of Shah Jehan mosque, and in the living room of the Imam’s residence had exchanged ideas and worked on plans to get Muslims of the world out of their hopeless state in every sphere of life, in the first half of 20th century.

  2.  “Islamic Knight says that never mind that the mosque was derelict and disused. Because it was built by Sunnis, it belonged to them and they had the right to bar Ahmadis from it…”

    I would like to hold Islamic Knight to his own standards. After 1974 anti-Ahmadi riots, AAIIL mosque in Murree, Pakistan was over run by the mob, our library was burnt and ever since it is under forced occupation. Last time I visited that mosque was in mid 80s and offered my Maghrib prayers behind a sunni imam. It was heart wrenching. It was not only a mosque, but it also served as a mehman-khanna (motel) for traveling Jamaat members. I went to a private boarding school (elementary through senior high) near Murree and when my parents visited me, they used to take me out for a Saturday night to main Murree town and we used to stay there. The mosque was located about 600 yards from the main General Post Office on Upper Jhika Gali road. Is Islamic Knight willing to campaign to return the mosque (oops! Place of worship)  to its rightful owners? Does he see the reflection of his fellow bigots who ransacked and forcefully occupied the said mosque in the following verse:
    2:217 … However, repelling men from the way of God, and rejecting His command of peace in those Months and turning people away from the Masjid of Security and the Prescribed way of Life, and evicting its people from there, are greater offenses in the sight of God. Persecution is a crime far greater than killing.” They will not cease from fighting against you until they make you revert from your way of Life, if they can… [Shabbir Ahmed]

    I tried google maps, but could not identify the mosque from the surrounding new construction. The front façade of the mosque cannot be seen in satellite navigation/fly thru either. Its general direction are – if the main GPO is on your left, go uphill on upper Jhika Gali Road, till it curves to the left over looking the valley, then continue on flat section of the road thereafter the curve for another 300 yards and the mosque will be on your right hand side on the down slope, with its façade facing the road.

  3. June 28th, 2010 at 10:43 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    A mosque was built in Muslim Town Lahore in the 1930s by Dr Sayyid Muhammad Husain Shah, one of the founding fathers of the LAM.  (In fact, Muslim Town itself was founded by him, as he originally bought all the land.)

    LAM elders living in Muslim Town (Maulana Muhammad Ali himself, Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi, and several others), used to pray in it, especially maghrib and isha. I myself prayed maghrib, isha, and Eid in it as a child. I was last in it in December 1975 or January 1976, attending dars-i Quran by Mr N.A. Faruqui, followed by maghrib prayers led by Dr Saeed Ahmad Khan sahib, with leading LAM members present.

    A few years later, the “khatam-i nubuwwat” organisation took it over by force. LAM went to court to get back possession of it. Eventually LAM obtained judgment in their favour, but in practice no one can dare enforce the judgment. There would be riots by the anti-Ahmadiyya. Islamic Knight would get the opportunity to “grab a sword” and slay those trying to enforce the court order for the LAM.

  4. June 28th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Here is Islamic Knight’s reply.

    Are you in the twilight zone??? 
    I am asking if you would allow for a seperate service to be held at your own mosque by a sunni/shiite imam.  Remember…..a seperate service.  A seperate service like in the court case of 1911 to 1916 wheere the ahmadis LOST. 
    And a district magistrate has lots of power.  Goinng to him is big deal.  Its almost like going to a judge.  Where did they meet him at anyways?  Did this magistrate come to Ali’s brothers house?  What building was this case dismissed from?  Ok,,,it wasnt even a case.  Where were the contents of this complaint heard at?  Did they find the magistrate in the streets? 
    have you looked up what magistrate means in the dictionary? 

    Islamic Knight is incapable of simple reading. I answered, Yes. But we would suggest to them that we join each other’s service, they join ours, we join theirs. That is a suggestion to them.

    But Islamic Knight is avoiding my question, that the anti-Ahmadiyya Muslims don’t consider our mosques as mosques, but as places of worship of another religion, like a church. This is actually the law in Pakistan. If they come to our mosque to pray, separately or however, they are recognising our mosques as mosques!

    (Note: The case of “1911 to 1916” he is referring to was a Qadiani Jamaat case in Patna that Islamic Knight mentioned to me before. The ruling was that Qadianis are Muslims, and can go to the mosque in this case, but can’t hold a separate service. He forgets the first part of the judgment and remembers the second!)

    The position of “magistrate” in any country at any time is as defined in the legal system prevailing, and is not defined by its dictionary meaning. The following is among what a district magistrate in India did (see this link):

    “The District Magistrate is the head of the Criminal Administration of the District and the Police force is the instrument provided by Government to enable him to enforce his authority and fulfill his responsibility for the maintenance of Law & Order. The police force in a District is, therefore, placed by Law under the General control and direction of the District Magistrate, who is responsible that it carries out its duties in such a manner that effective protection is afforded to the public and against lawlessness and disorder. District Magistrate is thus responsible for the maintenance of Law & Order within the limit of his jurisdiction. He is conferred with very wide powers by the law, which if used prudently can be very effective in maintaining peace and tranquillity.”

    It was his responsibility to be aware of any possible breach of peace and institute investigation.

  5. I was incidentally in Muree just this Sunday and took the customary walk from our house on upper Jhika Gali Road to the Mall.  As usual I passed the LAM Mosque and looked at it with a tinge of disappointment.  In the good old days when my grand parents were alive, the family would gather at the Murree house during summer vacations and Juma prayers would be held in the House.  Some times we would go to Mian Farooq A Sheikh’s residence in Muree and have Juma service there if the Shiekh family was present.  As the the mosque lies on a main road, we would pass it every other day and wonder at the injustice done to us that we have to hold Juma in our houses instead of at our mosque.  The mosque itself is intact and the facade is rather, for want of a better word, cute.

  6. June 30th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
    From islamicknight:

    Zahid Aziz has avoided my questions once again, as is usual when discussing the business of ahmadiyyat with their members.

    MGAQ got an order from someone who he claims was his god to the effect the ahmadis were not to pray behind any muslims who called MGAQ a liar and kafir. Yet, the LAM continue to visit Mecca and perform umrah or Hajj. Zahid answered to the effect that this injunction was temporal. This answer is extremely inadequate.

    I had also researched twp seperate stories wherein a handful of ahmadis had taken muslims into court houses with the request that they be allowed to be able to pray seperately in these respective mosques. They won the first case but lost the second.

    I also revealed to the Lahoris how ALI had supported a lie of MGAQ in terms of the exact contents of a letter that was written to Abdul Hakim Khan. ALI could have simply asked Mahmud Ahamd for the letter to confirm its contents. ALI did not do that.

    If you dont understand by now. Muslims feel that the ahmadis disrespect Muhammad (saw) and Allah (swt) with their belief system. This problem will never go away.

  7. July 1st, 2010 at 8:42 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    So I am avoiding questions “as is usual”, but Islamic Knight used to thank me in his e-mails for answering his questions!

    He hasn’t understood that Maulana Muhammad Ali has actaully quoted that letter, and Islamic Knight has even read that book where he has quoted it.

    “Muslims feel that the ahmadis disrespect Muhammad (saw) and Allah (swt) with their belief system. This problem will never go away.”

    In Pakistan the penalty for disrespecting the Holy Prophet Muhammad is death. Any person in Pakistan can report about another person that the latter has insulted the Holy Prophet. Presumably Islamic Knigh agrees with this punishment and is calling for our trial and execution.

  8. July 3rd, 2010 at 8:44 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Islamic Knight has sent 5 comments under different posts, calling himself as “Islamic Knight aka Mushtaq Malik”. Below are extracts about us from these comments:

    Quote –

    I will do whatever it takes to get the info out of you. I am even willing to be your friend. Just dont ask me to pray with you. I dont pray with hindus much, that would be awkward.

    You are good at snitching like MGAQ. MGAQ was snitching and was an ‘uncle tom’, he was a ‘house nigger’, I hope you understand that terminology. I can explain for the non-americans.

    While the muslims and other darker skinned people were ‘field hens’, the forefathers of MGAQ were supporting the white man. MGAQ genuinely supported whites in India and the world, whereas, muslims were only paying lip-service and were waiting for an oppurtunity to double-cross these whites and kill them all.

    Zahid is a snitch too. I cant believe that this guy actually said that he was going to turn me in for terrorism or something like that. All i said was that i support Islam and if we were living 1400 years ago i woudl grab a sword and kill a bunch of whites if needed. Whereas, Zahid, who is a nerd and probably has never fought anyone in his entire life would be scared.

    Ahmadis have disrespected the Quran and Hadith of Muhammad. I dont have to use honorable methods of dialogue to expose you people. I dont owe you anything. I can behave as i wish with you. Allah allows us to treat traitors and hucksters as we wish.
    Zahid is to scared to engage us there. He is a bitter old man who is stuck in a sham of a religion.

    – Unquote.

    I have placed in bold his comment that Muslims in India under British rule were false in their profession of loyalty and waiting for an opportunity to “kill whites”.

    One can only conclude that this is Islamic Knight’s plan in the USA: to claim to be law abiding but waiting to “double cross these whites”.

    He says that 1400 years ago he would have been willing to grab a sword to kill whites. But Muslims were fighting others Arabs 1400 years ago, not “whites”. Now some Muslims are claiming to be fighting jihad against whites. That’s what makes you think that Islamic Knight is waiting for an opportunity to “grab a sword” in Dallas, Texas, now and “kill whites”.

    In the last extract in the quote above, Islamic Knight makes several threats against us.

  9. A wise friend once said, “You own your words, only as long as you have not uttered them. Then they belong to everyone else.”
    Islamic Knight has clearly exposed his psychopathic nature towards the “infidel whites” and to the alternate points of view. He is arrogant and sounds impulsive. Unfortunately, the garb of Islam he is wearing is becoming a means to manifest his psychopathology.
    I am sure, that like any other site, this site is being monitored by security services. I hope they take note. This person needs help.

  10. It appears Islamic Knight has a deep rooted inferiority complex against the “white man.”

  11. February 1st, 2012 at 3:23 am
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    Cat is out of the bag!

    Islamic Knight used to write posts on this blog. On anti-HMGA blog RATIONALIST has written a post and has givenhis contact gmail address of Islamic Knight.



    I have Burney’s book on Ahmadiyyat (1955)

    <!– –>
    Posts: 2539
    Jan 31, 201219:09:42

    For all of those interested, email me

    I havent read it yet…scan coming soon.

  12. I have read Burney’s book. According to this book, Qadianis are wrong because Lahoris have proved them to be wrong, and Lahoris are wrong because Qadianis have proved them to be wrong! He provides no argument from himself, as he tells us. It is just like someone quoting Deobandis and Barelvis against each other, or an atheist quoting Muslims and Christians against each other and concluding that both are wrong.

    Under another thread, Rationalist has written that at the time of Hazrat Mirza sahib no “white man” could possibly have looked upon Islam favourably or accepted Islam because they all hated it.

    So, who were Alexander Russell Webb, Abdullah Quilliam, Lord Stanley of Alderley (converts), and Dr. G.W. Leitner, Sir T.W. Arnold (sympathisers), etc.? Rationalist should find out what opinion Allama Iqbal held about his teacher Sir T.W. Arnold, a white, English Christian, or perhaps he could come to the Woking Mosque and tell its anti-Ahmadiyya occupants that its builder, the white Dr. G.W. Leitner, hated Islam.