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May 28th, 2011

1974 Pakistan N.A. Proceedings that Declared Ahmadis as Non-Muslims is to be made public

Submitted by Rashid Jahangiri.


According to Jamaat-I-Islami Urdu newspaper ‘Daily Ummat’ May 28, 2011, current speaker of Pakistan National Assembly Dr. Fahmida Mirza has ordered 1974 Pakistan National Assembly proceedings that resulted in 2nd amendment to 1973 constitution of Pakistan and declared Ahmadis (both Qadiani-Ahmadis and Lahori-Ahmadis) as non-Muslim is to be made public.

http://ummat.com.pk/2011/05/28/news.php?p=news-84.gif

I hope this news turns out to be true and transcriptions of statements of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement representatives are accurate. I hope booklet produced by LAM and given to every member of National Assembly is also made available.

I also hope that Justice Samdani Commission Inquiry is also made public.

75 Responses to “1974 Pakistan N.A. Proceedings that Declared Ahmadis as Non-Muslims is to be made public”

  1. Embedded video clip of Dawn News TV on anti-HMGA website (ahmedi.org), reports on making public 1974 National Assembly proceedings that declared Ahmadis (Qadiani-Jamaat and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members) as non-Muslim.
     
    http://ahmediorg.yuku.com/topic/3693/Breaking-News-Super-Good-News-for-Ahmadiyya
     


  2. May 28th, 2011 at 9:40 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I hope the Pakistan government will also explain why the publication of the proceedings was originally prohibited. If it was such a triumph for the National Assembly and the government, and if their case was so strongly conclusive, the government should have been only too keen to publish them.

    Then there is the question whether the National Assembly has the power to declare some other group as non-Muslim on some other basis, such as for killing dozens of Muslims in Pakistan almost every week by planting bombs, or (as opposed to this) for collaborating with non-Muslim powers to enable them to pursue and kill Muslims in Pakistan.

    The National Assembly could hold further hearings on the definition of “absolute and unconditional belief in the finality of prophethood” which the constitution requires a Muslim to believe in. Perhaps a further amendment is required on the lines:

    “If a person who was a prophet before the Holy Prophet Muhammad appears again in the world, belief in him does not violate the finality of prophethood provided that he has either resigned or retired from his office as prophet, and can show evidence of this by a copy of his resignation letter addressed to Allah or letter of dismissal from Allah or proof of receipt of pension from Allah.”


  3. The following is a re-post from before
    Article – 260 – (3) of Constitution of Pakistan – an analysis


    Article – 260 – (3)
     
    In the Constitution and all enactments and other legal instruments, unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context
    (a) “Muslim” means a person who believes in the unity and oneness of Almighty Allah, in the absolute and unqualified finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him), the last of the prophets, and does not believe in, or recognize as a prophet or religious reformer, any person who claimed or claims to be a prophet, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever, after Muhammad (peace be upon him); and
    (b) “non-Muslim” means a person who is not a Muslim and includes a person belonging to the Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Parsi community, a person of the Quadiani Group or the Lahori Group who call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name or a Bahai, and a person belonging to any of the Scheduled Castes.
     
    Lets dissect word by word the human hand in the above document
     
    Article – 260 – (3)
    In the Constitution and all enactments and other legal instruments, unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context
    — This will be addressed at the end.
     
    (a) “Muslim” means
    — by using the word means instead of “is” clearly shows that constitution does not define but interprets the definition of a Muslim. The Constitution does not take responsibility of calling anyone a Muslim. Interpretations vary between different interpreters. Hence the article fails in its opening words. Essentially, constitution defers the definition of a Muslim to other sources. I believe it defers it to Quran, else I am afraid Munir Inquiry Report of 1953 pages 215 & 218 will kick in where it concludes that if left to individuals and sects, then every other school of thought is a non-Muslim.
     
    a person who believes in the unity and oneness of Almighty Allah,
    — This applies to whole of Ummah as it believes in the unity and oneness of Almighty Allah,

    in the absolute and unqualified finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him), the last of the prophets,
    — I believe Lahori Ahmadis’ are probably the only people in the entire Ummah who actually believe and stand up for and suffer from their belief in unqualified finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him), the last of the prophets, because they deny the return of Jesus after Muhammad, which on the contrary most of Ummah not only believes but is waiting for. Clearly this article so far considers Lahoris as the only Muslims on the planet earth.
     
    and does not believe in, or recognize as a prophet or religious reformer, any person who claimed or claims to be a prophet, in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever, after Muhammad (peace be upon him); and
    — This sentence refers to claimants in the past, present or future. It does not apply to Lahoris because by their belief they steer off all this. It clearly targets the future claim of prophethood by Jesus in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever. Thus it tells Ummah that if you believe in possible coming of Jesus, then you cannot be a Muslim. It gives me a Eureka! moment, because by a Divine hand, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s message has been embedded in the supreme law of the land. Allah-o-Akbar!

    Between sub-clauses (a) and (b) there is tie-in usage of and, which can mean linguistically continuation of (a) into (b) or mathematically where both (a) and (b) have to be true simultaneously [this is simply discrete mathematics logic]. If the former interpretation is taken, then (b) is a simple continuation of the thought from (a). But if the and is conditional, then mathematically it is not possible and instead it should had been “or” or “not-and” i.e. NAND, because one cannot be a “Muslim” and “non-Muslim” at the same time. Yet even this holds true because a Mullah in (a) is a non-Muslim, claiming to be a Muslim and of course he is also a non-Muslim by (b), see later.

    (b) “non-Muslim” means
    — again means is used instead of “is” which is subject to interpretation.
     
    a person who is not a Muslim
    — So far the article makes the full assumption that it has defined Muslim in (a) above, which obviously declares most of Ummah, including the writers of the clause as non-Muslim, except Lahoris. Thus all such persons who got their definition of non-Muslim from (a) are included in the current sub-clause (b).

    and includes
    — Another fundamental error in overall design of the clause as it uses the word includes instead of “excludes” thus they include under includes all the implied non-Muslims from (a) i.e. most Ummah except Lahoris.
     
    a person belonging to the Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Parsi community,
    — by addressing other religions, this “Islamic” constitution mocks itself. None of Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Parsi community wants the honorific title of a “Muslim.”

    a person of the Quadiani Group
    — let Quadiani Group speak for themselves.
     
    or the Lahori Group who call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name
    — Lets say the Lahori Group change their name to Muhammadi Group. How will the constitution then equate Muhammadi to Lahori, because (a) does not mention any claimant by his/her name. It is plain ridiculous and non-implementable.
     
    or a Bahai, and a person belonging to any of the Scheduled Castes.
    — I feel sorry for Bahai as they never got heard in the National Assembly, no matter how much of a mockery of justice it was to begin with when these clauses were inserted. By including them the Constitution is degrading itself to a level of nothing more than a fatwa, the same fatwas that the conclusion in the Munir Inquiry Report was all about i.e. the eagerness to call others non-Muslims.
     
    Now going to the very beginning of the Article:

    Article – 260 – (3)
    In the Constitution and all enactments and other legal instruments, unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context
    — Lets hold the hands of the constitution to the fire where is states unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context. So far the very existence and formulation of these clauses is nothing but repugnant in the subject or context and under its own authority, the Constitution of Pakistan expunges Article – 260 – (3) from itself.
    ———————————–
    Pakistan, I feel sorry for your soul, which is under foster care of Mullahs. I apologize to Allamah Iqbal, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Liaquat Ali Khan and numerous others who struggled for a country, and the millions who shed their blood for creation of this country. May Allah have mercy on all of us.


  4. In 1970 elections Qadiani Jamaat at organizational level supported and helped Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB). Being a religious organization, Qadiani Jamaat should not have involved itself in politics of Pakistan. After victory, Qadiani Jamaat interfered in politics of Punjab at provincial level and in politics of Pakistan at federal level. In Justice Samdani Inquiry Commission these facts were brought up. In addition to that, Qadiani Jamaat leadership, in particular their Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Mirza Tahir Ahmad (later Khalifa 4), in order to put political pressure on ZAB started courting his political rival Asghar Khan of Tahreek-e-Istaqlal. To knock off Qadiani Jamaat’s political value, ZAB used the opportunity of Rabwah railway station incident and its aftermath. He declared Qadiani Jammat as non-Muslim in 2nd constitutional amendment in Pakistan’s 1973 constitution. ZAB referred to his “service” to Islam, in Colonel Rafi-ud-Din book ‘Last 323 days of Bhutto’. ZAB accused Qadianis of becoming kingmakers in Pakistan like Jews are in USA.
     
    My information about 1974 national assembly proceedings is based on booklet distributed by LAM delegation to national assembly members, and on oral history of LAM representatives, I hold opinion:
     
    Opening to public 1974 national assembly proceedings will expose weak case of religious politicians in national assembly, political dishonesty of secular politicians in national assembly, indefensible beliefs of Qadiani Jamaat, and boastful statements of Qadiani elders that if 1974 record is made public half of Pakistan will become Ahmadi (Qadiani).

    This will also help LAM in making our case to general public that we were penalized in 1974 because of ‘guilty by association’. Among the parties involved making 1974 record public will only help LAM. As truth about beliefs of LAM comes to knowledge of Pakistani Muslims, their resistance to LAM literature will decrease over time, and hopefully they will be able to benefit from it.


  5. May 29th, 2011 at 5:50 pm
    From Fazil Jamal:

    The decision to put the National Assembly Proceedings of 1974 on the public domain is an important one. From a historical perspective, the record will help to unravel how a people’s assembly was abused for un-Godly purposes and that too in the name of protecting the honour of the noble Prophet.

    Spiritually speaking, secrets are bound to be revealed in the Latter Days, as the Holy Qur’an famously prophecies.


  6. May 29th, 2011 at 5:53 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    During a visit to Pakistan last year I bought a book entitled Bhutto Ka Adalati Qatal? (Judicial Murder of Bhutto?) by Mujahid Lahori, M.A. Ll.B. (2nd edition, 2008). The author tries to prove that the legal proceedings against Bhutto were totally biased, deeply flawed, motivated by enmity against him etc.

    Writing about allegations spread against Bhutto, the author writes:

    “At one time Bhutto was declared kafir. Fatwas of kufr against him were widely propagated. This custom of takfir is very old. Previously, great men such as Mansur Hallaj, and recently great leaders such as Allama Iqbal and Quaid-i Azam were made targets of this custom. Bhutto was not more holy or greater than these. These people also declared that those who vote for Bhutto are reprobates and misguided. Many ulama refused to hold funeral prayers for workers of the People’s Party” (p. 77-78).

    Now contrast this with what the same author writes only 5 pages later while listing the achievements of Bhutto:

    “By declaring Mirzais as non-Muslim, he solved the 100-year old issue of Khatm-i nubuwwat. On this achievement, his worst opponent Agha Sorash Kashmiri congratulated him and on this occasion paid him tribute in a passionate poem.” (p. 82)

    The poem is then reproduced. I here translate its last verse:

    “Bhutto’s name will live forever,
    O Shorash, the evil ones have been defeated, zindabad

    — Shorash Kashmiri, Chatan, 10-16 September 1974″

    On p. 77 takfir is an old pastime, whose targets include the greatest of Muslims. On p. 82 declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslim is a great achievement!

    When Shorash Kashmiri wrote that “Bhutto’s name will live forever”, he didn’t know that it would live forever as a man hanged for ordering murder, and that Bhutto’s execution would be brought about by those who were congratulating him most for declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslim!


  7. LAM representative message to Mirza Nasir Ahmad.
     
    Abdul Manan Omar sahib was the main person among the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement delegation to 1974 Pakistan National Assembly. He testified for about 10 hours over first two days in 1974 proceedings. He answered questions of attorney general of Pakistan, Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar. After him Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad testified on behalf of Qadiani Jamaat. He testified for 11 days.  He too answered attorney general’s questions.
     
    Few days before commencement of Ahmadis trial, Abdul Manan Omar sahib sent message to Mirza Nasir Ahmad. Abdul Manan Omar sahib personally narrated details to me. In his message he said, “This is in reality trial of Hazrat Masih Mauood (Promised Messiah), and your and mine position is of witnesses. If there is conflict between testimonies of witnesses, it can weaken the case for defense. In the beginning of my testimony, I will state that this is the trial of Hazrat Masih Mauood, and I will only defend him, so all questions should be related to him and references should only be from his books. And I will suggest you to do the same”. In reply message Mirza Nasir Ahmad said, “you can say that, but I cannot”.
     
    As Abdul Manan Omar sahib started to testify he made it clear that no references should be given from speeches and writings of Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, or his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad’s.
     
    On hearing Abdul Manan Omar sahib’s disclaimer regarding Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad, attorney general turned to religious politicians (that included people like Mufti Mahmud Ahmad, Shah Ahmad Noorani, Professor Gafoor Ahmad etc), and asked them pointing to file in his hand: “All objections and references you people have provided are of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brother”. In reply they said, “This is all we have, just work with them”.
     
    Beside some questions about beliefs, claims, and mission of Promised Messiah, some other interesting things came under discussion. Such as:
    1-     In Islam there is no punishment for apostasy, and especially there is no death penalty. This opinion of Abdul Manan Omar sahib was accepted by the house and speaker on request of Abdul Manan Omar sahib placed it on assembly record.
    2-     Promised Messiah did not call his opponents children of prostitutes.
    3-     Attorney general on more than one occasion tried to push quotes of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad. And Abdul Manan Omar sahib pointed out the real author of those quotes and rejected them.
     
    After the first day of testimony, late in evening Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto held his cabinet meeting, which was also attended by Mufti Mahmud, Shah Ahmad Noorani, Professor Ghafoor Ahmad.  Former Qadiani, and minister of state in ZAB government, Mr. Malik Jafar Khan of Attock, also attended this meeting. He was friend of Abdul Manan Omar sahib. (Personally I have seen Malik Jafar Khan in my father’s home in Islamabad). Late night after meeting he came to meet Abdul Manan Omar sahib, and informed him about the cabinet meeting. He informed him that it has been decided to declare both Qadiani and Lahori Ahmadis as Kafir (non-Muslim), and he (Abdul Manan Omar sahib) will not be called to testify tomorrow. Next day LAM delegation had taken its seats in assembly hall. As soon as speaker of house started the session after prayer, Abdul Manan Omar sahib got up and gave reference to yesterday point on which session was adjourned and was thus able to speak.
     
    If Abdul Manan Omar sahib had not taken the initiative to testify, probably he would not have been called to testify on second day. In two days altogether Abdul Manan Omar sahib did not testify even for 10 hours. Where as Mirza Nasir Ahmad was grilled for 11 days. Over whelming majority of questions were based on statements and writings of his father Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad. I am sure if Mirza Nasir Ahmad had paid heed to Abdul Manan Omar sahib advice, he could have spared lot of agony, and it would have further weakened Mullah’s case against Promised Messiah.


  8. Are Qadianis backing out of their boastful statements?
     
    Growing up I heard more than once from different Qadianis, including my fanatic Qadiani relatives that, if Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad [QK3] statements in 1974 assembly are published half of Pakistan will become Ahmadi [Qadiani]. I also heard this statement was made by QK3 himself.
     
    Now Qadianis are saying that original statement was made by then speaker of house Farooq Ali and QK3 only reiterated it. It is obvious QK3 agreed with Farooq Ali that is why he reiterated it; otherwise he would have rejected it.
     
    Qadianis use to boast in presence of LAM members, and now when there is a chance to put to test their statement, they are backing out.
     
    On anti-HMGA website (ahmedi.org) there is quote of Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 5:
    Quote:
    “I believe that if the Ahmadiyyah viewpoint reached the people of Pakistan, then there would be no reason why the whole Pakistan did not become Ahmadi.” Mirza Tahir Ahmad Sahib, ‘Khalifa IV’.
    A deplorable scheme of Falsification and Accusations.
    Pdf document page 27.
    End quote.
     
    Link to above Qadiani jamaat publication is provided, but it is no more working.
     
    I hope our Qadiani friends, and especially my fanatic Qadiani relatives realize that QK3 and QK4 (Mirza Tahir Ahmad) statements were another lies like 200 million worldwide and 80 million in India alone joined their jamaat.
     


  9. May 30th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    There is another reason why the notion is absurd that “a half of Pakistan will become Ahmadi [Qadiani]” if their answers given in the National Assembly are published.

    It means the Qadiani Jamaat believes that the people of Pakistan are such great lovers of truth, and so prepared to make sacrifices for the truth, that upon discovering the truth a half of them would give up their wrong beliefs and accept it. With due respect to the people of Pakistan, this is not a characteristic one associates with them. For example, the people of Pakistan know full well that many of their practices and customs are against Islam. But there are hardly any of them who give up these customs just because they have heard and recognised the truth!

    Now I will tell you how a half of the people of Pakistan could become Qadianis. Dr Allah Bakhsh was General-Secretary of AAIIL in the 1970s. He told us that just pre-1974 some men searching for the “Ahmadi” (i.e. Qadiani) centre came by mistake to the AAIIL offices in Ahmadiyya Buildings, Lahore (Brandreth Road). They told Dr Allah Bakhsh, we want to become Ahmadis. Surprised by this, he asked, Why? They said: The present government (Bhutto government) is only semi-Ahmadi (neem Ahmadi), but the next one will be fully Ahmadi, so we want to become Ahmadi in readiness!

    Dr Allah Bakhsh told us that such was the perception of many people at the time because of the Qadiani Jamaat support with which the PPP had come to power.

    So yes, if there were to be any prospect of the Qadiani Jamaat coming to power in Pakistan, then certainly a half of Pakistan will join them beforehand, just like they would join any other group which they thought might come to power.


  10. May 30th, 2011 at 9:14 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The Assembly hearings weren’t the only events in 1974 in Pakistan about this issue. Mobs under incitement of Mullahs were going round attacking Ahmadis, burning their properties and forcing them under threat of death to declare that they were not Ahmadis but Muslims.

    There were also some comical situations. A mob surrounded a factory on rumours that the owner was an Ahmadi and threatened to burn it. The owner said to them: What have you got against me? They said, You are an Ahmadi. He replied: But I don’t even believe in God. They said, Oh sorry, that’s all right then, we have nothing against you. And they went away!

    An Ahmadi was dragged by a mob and told that he must declare his belief in khatam-i nubuwwat. He said, all right, I will declare it. He announced: I believe in the khatam-i nubuwwat of Hazrat Adam. The crowd was absolutely delighted and cheered, that we have made an Ahmadi accept khatam-i nubuwwat.


  11. Professor Khalid Omar (son of Abdul Manan Omar sahib) was a student at University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore in 1974. There was a faculty member, who himself was atheist, and his late mother was from Qadiani Jamaat. He lived on campus grounds. Jamat-I-Islami students of university went to his house. They were shouting and using curses for Ahmadis. Professor came out and asked them what is that they want? Students asked him to renounce his “Ahmadi religion” and become Muslim. Professor replied, I don’t believe in God. I’m an atheist. I don’t have Ahmadis belief. Students mob returned and professor was off the hook.
     


  12. Why only half of Pakistani population will join Qadiani Jamaat?
     
    I wonder why Qadiani jamaat elders held belief that if 1974 record is made public half of Pakistani population will join their jamaat, why not 100% of Pakistani population, INCLUDING THE “PAIGHAMIS” (i.e. Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his followers as contempt addressed LAM members with this name)?
     
    I think Mirza Tahir Ahmad (QK4) realized flaw in claim of Mirza Nasir Ahmad (QK3), so he jacked up the claim to 100%, per his quote.


  13. In the lighter vein, I also recall a similar joke about a life long Qadiani centurion, imam of local Qadiani mosque, who died in 1980s. He too was forced to “convert” in the anti-Ahmadiyya riots of 1974, for which he was asked to recite Kalima. He quite willingly obliged. The mob some how was not convinced (of the Kalima as a declaration to be a Muslim). To confirm his “conversion” he was asked to supplement his declaration with a curse on HMGA. The gentleman obliged by stating “Kay Mirzay teh kay ghair Mirzay, saaray-aan teh laanat ho-way” i.e. Curse be on all Mirzas (plural) and non-Mirzas (i.e. you all – the mob) at the same time. And the crowd shouted Allah-o-Akbar and he was let go.
     
    On return home, his wife of 70 years jeered at him as to why he gave up his life long faith in Qadiani Jamaat. He replied “Kiyon Mirza mera pay-oo lug-dha hay jay ous they wastay mein aapni budhee hadian panawan,” i.e. Is Mirza (sahib) my dad for whom I get my old bones broken.


  14. My late father became Ahmadi at a very young age. He was hardly 16 years old, and student of pre-medical in Islamia College, Peshawar. He was quite a promising student, and my grandfather use to say that he will sell his lands to send him for education to England. As part of family dynamics, cousins of my grandfather became jealous, as they were foreseeing promising future of their cousin’s son. So, in cover of their “Islamic duty” they kept taunting and feeding into my grandfather ear that his son is apostle and he must me put to death. After my grandfather failed in his attempts to convince my father, he and his cousins planned to murder him. It is another story, how Allah SWT saved my father, when his father and his uncles were on hunt and chase to murder him.

    Interesting point is that Allah SWT punished those perpetrators in such a wonderful way that the same uncles themselves became Qadianis. They adopted beliefs farthest from the prevailing beliefs among general Muslims. They became quite prominent among Qadianis. So, much so that the chief “motivator” became Ameer (head) of Qadianis in Hazra Division. If my memory is serving me right, he later became Ameer of Qadianis in North West Frontier Province (now renamed as Khyber Pakhtoonkhawa). 
     
    During 1974 riots the Qadiani Ameer sahib and his sons sought refuge in Islamabad. My father frequently visited him and on many occasion I accompanied him. This Qadiani Ameer sahib was quite distressed in his displacement. He was at least in his 80s. My father suggested his uncle, that as it won’t be safe for him to return to his native town Mansehra and also for his mental health, so it was better that he should forget about returning to his home and rather he should move to Rabwah. But Qadiani Ameer sahib turned down my father’s suggestion. He replied, “People will confiscate my property, lands, and house. And I don’t want to lose them”. So, the Qadiani Ameer sahib returned to Mansehra, where first he was taken to a largest mosque in town. There he recited Kalima-Shahada to become Muslim, and in addition cursed Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, to prove renunciation of his former beliefs. Few years later he passed away, Lahori-Ahmadis (including my father) and general Muslims offered his funeral prayer (at that time it was not announced by Mullahs that Ahmadis should not join in funeral of a Muslim), but former Qadiani Ameer sahib’s own Qadiani relatives did not offer his funeral prayer.
     
    Compared to the person Ikram mentioned, who renounced his Qadiani faith due to his old age, the Qadiani Ameer sahib of NWFP renounced his faith out of fear of losing his property and house. I think this was another punishment for him from Allah SWT for what he did to my father.
     


  15. Did Qadiani lawyer take my bait?
     
    For many years I have been convinced that given Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa’s financial resources, manpower at his disposal in Pakistan, and his political connections, if he wants he can get record of 1974 trial of Ahmadis made public. Hurdle was how he can be convinced. I held opinion if enough pressure can be build-up in Qadiani Jamaat, then may be Qadiani Khalifa followers force him to move Pakistani court to get the record published.
     
    I have been involved in discussion with Qadiani Jamaat friends on Internet on different forums in general and on their Canada based, now defunct discussion form, started by former Qadiani Akbar Chaudhary. In my reply to missionary efforts of young Qadianis to convince me that “Lahori’s” (LAM members) beliefs are wrong, and that I should accept their beliefs. I use to say: Your Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad after 1974 trial claimed that if its record is published half of Pakistani public will become Ahmadi (Qadiani). So, if you believe in your Khalifa’s claim, then why don’t you get 1974 record published. If arguments of your Khalifa, presented in National Assembly, turn out to be overwhelmingly convincing, and when half of Pakistan public will join your jamaat then Lahori-Ahmadis and my self will be left with no choice but to accept your beliefs.
     
    About couple of years ago, Canada based Qadiani lawyer wrote a piece on ‘Pak Tea House blog’. In it he suggested idea of moving Pakistan Supreme Court to get record of 1974 trial of Ahmadis published. I liked his idea, as previously my personal efforts to hire an attorney for this purpose in Pakistan failed. After reading blog of Qadiani lawyer, I thought of contacting him and collaborating with him for this purpose. Due to different reasons, I could not contact him.
     
    According to posts on anti-HMGA website (ahmedi.org), a Canada based Qadiani lawyer through his proxy lawyer in Pakistan moved Pakistan Supreme Court and on its order speaker of Pakistan National Assembly has ordered publication of record of the said trial.
    According to website posts, Qadiani lawyer acted in his individual capacity. And after his success he informed the current Qadiani Khalifa Mirza Masroor Ahmad. He was expecting appreciation and great announcement by him. In return he received some thing absolutely opposite to his expectations.
     
    I don’t know if Canada based Qadiani lawyer thought of getting 1974 record published out of his intuition or he took my bait, but I would like to think so that did indeed took my bait.  I hope that he does not get into trouble for his great service to HMGA mission.

    {Editor’s quip: When Rashid uses the word “bait”, that’s the English word of course, and not to be confused with the Arabic/Urdu word bai`at meaning “pledge”!}


  16. May 31st, 2011 at 9:28 am
    From Abid Aziz:

    I remember a joke-like incident in my childhood.

    A person who was a self proclaimed hero “Phane Khan” said to a number of people in a Bethak (a place where people sit toghether and gossip) that he will turn me into a muslim today. After saying this he came to me and said today I will convert you into a muslim by reciting Kalima. I said I am ready to say Kalima. He said then you recite as I recite. I said ok i will recite after you. He then recited loudly (people sitting in bethak were watching and listening) Bismilahi Rehmanir Raheem. I recited the same after him.Then he recited Ahozubillahi Minash Shetanir Rajeem. By this time he had realized that he had said this in wrong order. The people sitting in bethak started laughing loudly.  He got ashamed and said “today you just escaped from becoming a muslim”


  17. May 31st, 2011 at 5:18 pm
    From ahmad jehangiri:

    I don’t want to comments on the beliefs of Lahore Ahamadiyya Movement (LAM) in detail, however, LAM’s followers know very well that all their beliefs are based on hatred, betrayal, conspiracy, mud-slinging, self-praise, abuse and things like this – mean all negative. I know what response I will get from all my Lahore friends but still I will say have a reality check on your beliefs. I am sorry to say but the fact is that this movement is based on negativity. Please look at the whole human history which warrants that all truthful start from zero and do multiply with the passage of time. Surprisingly, LAM is unique rather exceptionally unique in its existence that it had more followers in the beginning but start shrinking day by day and now it’s near to extinction. Why this so with LAM – may be negativity. I would urge that please forget what Qadinis’ Khulafa said or saying. Please let us know what divine mandate your Anjumann has  and your plus, please. God bless you all. 
      


  18. May 31st, 2011 at 7:35 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    1. Is it only the truthful who multiply with the passage of time? Since Islam came into the world, Christianity has spread vastly over those centuries!

    2. We are only too happy to forget anything said by Qadiani khalifas and to base our beliefs only on what the Promised Messiah said.

    3. The Anjuman’s Divine mandate was given by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who created it and designated it as his Ja-nashin or successor in his Will. See: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/khil2.htm

    4. Extinction must, by definition, bring something to an end. According to you, we have been becoming extinct for about ninety years. 

    Of course, in comparison with your 200 million size (one in every eight Muslims) I admit we are extinct.

    It is your beliefs (Muslims are kafir, Holy Prophet Muhammad was not the prophesied Ahmad of the Quranic verse of ch. 61) that have actually become extinct among you.


  19. Follow up on Dr. Zahid Aziz post:
    “Of course, in comparison with your [Qadiani jamaat] 200 million size (one in every eight Muslims) I admit we are extinct.”
     
    Current population of Pakistan is 180 million. With placement of 1974 national assembly record in public domain, at least 90 million, per Qadiani Khalifa 3 claim, will become Qadiani, then LAM will REALLY BECOME EXTINCT in Pakistan. And if per Qadiani Khalifa 4 claim, total 180 million Pakistanis will become Qadiani, then in that case LAM will FINISH in Pakistan. And only few LAM members like my self, who are living outside Pakistan, will remain as last remnants. And after my death, may be my body can be placed in “museum of theology and sociology”. 
     


  20. May 31st, 2011 at 10:28 pm
    From ahmad jehangiri:

    The hatred is yet again evident. You have stampted my observation. I would humbly suggest you to engage in a meaningful discourse on intellectual issues rather than mudslinging which has not caused any harm to Qadianis but has made yourselves filthy. May I repeat my question again which has escaped your attention: “Please let us know what divine mandate your Anjumann has  and your plus”.


  21. June 1st, 2011 at 5:31 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Mr Ahmad Jehangiri, I have answered your question about the Divine mandate of the Anjuman in number (3) of my reply above and gave a link to a full discussion.


  22. Najam Sethi is famous journalist of Pakistan. On Geo TV he has show ‘Aapas Ki Baat, Najam Sethi Kay Saath’. After watching his program, I sent him following email.
     
    Dear Najam Sethi sahib,
    AOA,
    I’m physician in US. My name is Rashid Jahangiri. I watched your program on line. Aired on May 31, 2011. You informed viewers that today was birthday of Salman Taseer shaheed. You explained in detail problems faced in getting justice for him. You complained how politicians, judges, attorneys, witnesses etc are scared in face of Mullah power. You also complained that inquiry commission reports are not published. My question to you is, who gave this power to Mullah? Who started tradition of never letting inquiry commission reports see light of the day?
    Sethi sahib, I’m your fan, but I wonder why you don’t tell us the truth? If you don’t know, here is my hint to you.
    Although, trigger on ST was pulled by his body guard, but the blood trail leads to 1974 Pakistan National Assembly and ends on hands of hero of ST i.e. PPP Chairman and Prime Minister of Pakistan, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
    ZAB did not make public Justice Samdani Commission inquiry report, because it would have exposed how Qadiani Jamaat on organizational level helped PPP win 1970 election, and their Khalifa and Co started making demands from PPP on federal and Punjab provincial level, and started courting ZAB political opponent Asghar Khan of Tahreek-e-Istiqlal. To teach Qadianis a lesson and decimate them politically, ZAB used religion for political purposes. He held trial of Qadianis in closed parliamentary sessions. Where prosecution, jury, and executioner was one party. No journalists were allowed inside. After trial record was ordered to be kept secret. If Justice Hammud-ur-Rehman commission report that had national security issues got published long ago, then why not 1974 national assembly trial?
    ZAB started the tradition of travesty of justice in Pakistan. He started tradition of never letting inquiry commission reports see light of the day. He was the first person who abused his powers to declare Kalima-Reciters as Kafir. He did not provide justice. After that injustice with in four years, the first person that faced injustice at the highest level in Pakistan was none other than ZAB himself. Chief Justice of Lahore High Court declared him Kafir. He pleaded with Supreme Court of Pakistan that he be declared Muslim because he recites Kalima-Shahada. Before his judicial murder he learned what is the only requirement for a person to be accepted as Muslim i.e. as long as that person recites Kalima-Shahada.
    If you read articles by journalist Khalid Hasan, ZAB’s press secretary, or even his daughter BB’s autobiography ‘Daughter of the East’, you will know ZAB indulged in un-Islamic practices that many Kalima-Shahada reciters, whom he declared Kafir did not indulge in.
    My question to you is, if person like ZAB with all his human weaknesses feels entitled to declare Kalima-Shahada reciters as Kafir, then why you are not willing to give the same right to a Mullah to declare fellow Muslim as kafir, and right to kill him? A Mullah, who offers five times prayers, keep fasts, does not drink alcohol, and only have intimate relations with his lawfully wedded wife.
    Dear Sethi sahib, please tell the truth to Pakistani nation. If you can do this, you will have my utmost respect. Please do it if you care for honesty and believe in telling the truth, and pointing out the root cause to today’s evils prevailing in Pakistani nation.
    Sethi sahib, I don’t know if you will give any weight to what I am going to say now. Anyways, here it is: Pakistani nation usurped authority of Allah. They think they know it better than Allah to decide who is Muslim and who is Kafir. And Allah is very angry with Pakistanis. He has a solution: Break Pakistan into multiple pieces, so that there remains no Pakistan, no 1973 constitution and no second amendment that declares Kalima-Rciters as Kafir. Solution is only one: Either get second constitution amendment to 1973 constitution repealed, or be prepared for Allah to take care of it. And Pakistan being ‘Land of Pure’ and ‘castle of Islam’ and its citizens, as True-Muslims should accept Allah’s will, when it ceases to exist as Pakistan and in its current geographical boundaries.
    Good luck and Allah Hafiz.
    Rashid Jahangiri, M.D.
     
    Link to Najam Sethi’s program. Please watch it at 18 minutes.
    http://pkpolitics.com/2011/05/31/aapas-ki-baat-31-may-2011/
     
     


  23. @Ahmad Jehangiri sahib:
     
    Qadiani Ameer sahib (Ameer of Qadiani Jamaat in Hazara Division) I referred to in my earlier post, before adopting Qadiani beliefs, had declared my late father as Kafir (nauzubilah) and ‘Wajab-ul-Qatal’. Qadiani Ameer sahib himself was declared Kafir by his near and dear Qadiani relatives, as they did not offer his funeral prayer, nor they offered his widow’s funeral prayer, who died couple of years later. As according to you his own son (who got buried in “Behasti Muqbara” in Rabwah, about a year ago after his family paid the remaining 12 lakh rupees) did NOT offer his father’s funeral prayer, as he was “Kafir” in eyes of son. Won’t you agree with me that former Qadiani Ameer sahib was punished by Allah for what he did to my father?


  24. June 1st, 2011 at 9:38 am
    From Fazil Jamal:

    Friends,

    I am an Indian Muslim and do not belong to either of the two groups- Q Jamaat  or LAM.

    But, I am really curious about the number of followers of each of this group.

    Does the Q Jamaat claim that there are 80 million of them in my country! and over 200 million in the world?!

    Do they actually claim so? or is it mere mud-slinging against them?  

    Where can I read it if such estimates exist? 

    Secondly, how big is the LAM? LAM seems to be very active on the internet with many sites and lot of activity. What about actual missions and numbers?


  25. Again in a lighter vein of this thread, every time the discussion of Qadiani Khalifas II-V comes up, it triggers childhood memories when it used to be a real treat to watch a film in a cinema in Pakistan. I remember seeing a movie in which the late comedian Rangeela had multiple roles. He single-handedly was the grandfather, father, son and grandson.
     
    Same comedy is being played for generations in the greatest show in Islam by Khilafat-chain-productions and not one smile from the 200millions. Come on guys, loosen up.
     
    Rule No. 1 for any Islamic doctrine is that it has to pass the test of secular intelligence and fairness. It has to fit our God given sensibilities, else it is a dogma. Once a doctrine passes the secular test, only then it can transition into spiritual plane. For example salat (prayer) has to secure physical pureness before it provides spiritual cleanliness.  With this, read the following verses:
     
    30:29. Nay, but those who behave unjustly, they pursue their own low desires without (any) knowledge (whatsoever). So who can guide one whom Allâh has adjudged as lost? There will be none to help them.


    30:30. So pay your whole-hearted attention to (the cause of) faith as one devoted (to pure faith), turning away from all that is false. (And follow) the Faith of Allâh (-Islam) to suit the requirements of which He has made the nature of mankind. There can be no change in the nature (of creation) which Allâh has made. That is the right and most perfect Faith, yet most people do not know (it).
     
    I am afraid that this Khilafat chain of II-V has passed neither of the above tests. The self conceited doctrine of the Khandan-e-Khilafat can take lesson from these subsequent verses:
     
    30:31. (Believers! you should all be attentive to Him) turning to Him (in repentance), and take Him as (your) shield (for protection) and observe Prayer and be not of those who associate partners (with Him) –
     
    30:32. Of those who have split up their faith and have divided themselves into sects so that every party is happy with what they have.
     
    In conformity to above verses Khalifa-II not only divided up the legacy of the Mujaddid of our times, but also split up the Ummah by declaring a Kalima reciting believer a non-believer.  Khalifas III onwards are equally guilty for further alienating the Ummah.  Why should one be then surprised by the backlash of Ummah in general towards the Qadianis. Irony is that it was the late Muhammad Ali Sahib who first raised the voice against this divisive Qadiani doctrine.  Even thought the Lahoris became innocent bystander victims, we believe that we are not  a separate sect from Sunni Islam. We openly pray in any mosque, any funeral, are foremost in advocating the absolute finality of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and are not apologetic about it.
     
    It is the Lahori school of thought that is being adopted by main-stream Islam. Just go and scan any religious bookshelf in the West and you will find Lahori influence and sources (whether acknowledge or not).  Point in case, Al-Azhar is now authenticating and publishing Arabic translations of Muhammad Ali Sahib’s books. I personally posses those copies from Al-Azhar.
     
    Essentially, Lahoris were and are Sunnis and beyond.  The other day I was reading a book by Imam Khameni (of Iran) about Islam, the name of which I do not recall. For significant time, I had a deja vu experience as if I was reading Lahori literature.
     
    Dear Qadiani brothers, please enlighten us as to what have you contributed to Islamic thought other than doctrine of Khilafat and all its concoctions.  Someone commented quite logically, that if the Khandan-e-Khilafat has some divine basis, then Khandan-e-Muhammad has many fold stronger magnitude. The latter to their credit stood up to a tyrant at cost of their lives and their father and grandfather were the last ones to go into exile.  Khandan-e-Muhammad passed the test of secular values first, before they claimed spirituality. What do the Qadiani Khalifas II-V have to show? Do not forget, talk is cheap and dogmas are free. All they need are followers.
     
    P.S. Rangeela still brings a smile to my face.


  26. June 1st, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Dear Fazeel Jamal, given below is the link to the press release issued by the Qadiani Jamaat on the occasion of their 2003 convention in London, the first one under the present Khalifa:

    http://www.jalsasalana.org/uk/2003/uk_convention.pdf

    On page 2, first paragraph, lines 3 to 4 say:

    “… the Community has spread to 174 countries with 200 million followers…”

    and paragraph 5 begins:

    “Ahmadiyya Muslims number 200 million worldwide. With 20 million accepting the faith in 2002, it is the fastest growing religious community of Islam in the world.”


  27. @Fazil Jamal:
    Dear, please click following link and read Qadiani Worlwide population claims both in text and in pie chart form, from a image captured on Qadiani Jamaat official website http://www.alislam.org by former Qadiani and creator webmaster of famous Qadiani forum Mr. Akbar Chaudhary
    The 200 Million Figure 
    http://www.qern.org/wiki/display/qarchives/The+200+Million+Figure


  28. My jamaat appears to have given figures that were inconsistent.  Thats the only error.  There appears to have been prominent Ahmadis that fudged the numbers.  Either that or people left en-masse. 

    Why does it matter?  Why havent the Lahoris expanded at all in the last 50 years or so?  We are giving the message of Hazrat sahib (as) to the world.  If people join and then leave, then that is between them and Allah. 


  29. @Arshad:
     
    “My jamaat appears to have given figures that were inconsistent.  Thats the only error.”
     
    You’re still falling short of accepting that Qadiani Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad, who claimed to be “appointed by Allah” and held belief by you that he was “appointed by Allah” BLATANTLY, AND REPEATEDLY LIED. Period. Please don’t try to water it down. Won’t you be proud, if numbers turned out to be true??
     
    “If people join and then leave, then that is between them and Allah. “
     
    Now instead of accepting lies of your “appointee of Allah” you blame it on the people?? What logic!! What kind of teaching was that, that in short period overwhelmed people so much that tens of millions did ba’it of your Qadiani Khalifa 4 and then tens of millions rejected them. Do you really think people outside Qadiani jamaat are brain washed like Qadianis??? I take it as personal insult if you think I’ll accept what you said!
     
    “Why does it matter?  Why havent the Lahoris expanded at all in the last 50 years or so?”
     
    HMGA held belief that those Muslims who don’t oppose him, although they have not done his ba’it, ARE STILL MEMBER OF HIS COMMUNITY!
    Obviously, Qadiani Khalifas and their followers only believe those to be followers of HMGA who have signed ba’it form and pledged allegiance to Qadiani Khalifa. So, Muslims who have NOT done ba’it regardless if they have never opposed HMGA can not be member of Qadiani organization.
    Where as Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, in accordance with belief and claim of HMGA hold belief that all such Muslims who do not oppose HMGA are members of their movement. Regardless whether they have signed 10 conditions of HMGA ba’it or not. Based on this belief of HMGA, LAM membership is in HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, and LAM mosques are in Millions around the world. Do you have problem with this??? You will have problem with this only, if you question HMGA belief and claim!!!!!!
    Remember: LAM members pray in any mosque, where no one opposes HMGA and LAM members offer funeral prayers of Muslims who have not opposed HMGA.


  30. It is a Muslim’s duty to self to seek any intelligent source be it a book or a personality for his/her individual improvement which then in turn become basis for societal uplift. To achieve these goals books could range from Quran to any analysis of religious or secular pursuit. The personalities could be anyone who can offer some wisdom, be it in history or the present. Ultimately it is the individual’s free mind that is the integrator of external information to the inherent intelligence that all of us possess.
     
    With the above in mind then HMGA is one such means of Islamic revival in our times, though a very important one, but he is not the end. The irony is that with Qadianis HMGA and the Khilafat are the ends unto themselves. This state of mind has close parallels in logic when Khwaja Kamaluddin sahib, while analyzing polytheism states:
     
    “Pure monotheism would go to the real Fountain Head of all light, but the polytheistic tendency, innate in an undeveloped mind, would blight its judgement and benight its reasoning. Man would take the agent for the principal, the husk for the kernel, the effect for the cause, and the immediate for the ultimate. This psychology creates polytheism. All forms of “isms,” ranging from fetishism to Man-worship, thrive under it.” [Islam and Zoroastrianism by Khwaja Kamal ud din, pg 18, Basheer Muslim Library, The Mosque, Woking, pub: 1925.]
     


  31. June 2nd, 2011 at 7:53 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Ikram’s statement that Hazrat Mirza sahib is “one such means” and “not the end” reminded me of the introductory remarks made by Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi in a speech in 1946 about “The Philosophy of Colours in the Holy Quran”. He began:

    “The learned persons of the Muslim nation agree that the truths and the knowledge contained in the Holy Quran will continue to be disclosed till the end of time. It is also obvious that according to the clear evidence of the words “none shall touch it except the purified ones” (the Quran 56:79), the man to whom knowledge of the Quran is disclosed in abundance cannot be a heretic and disbeliever. The history of Islam cannot present any example of a disbeliever who studied the Quran extensively and whose mission in life was to prove the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and of the Holy Quran by means of arguments and proofs whose excellence could not be matched by any of the ulama, whether of the former times or of his own time. According to the late Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal, in our time Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the man who showed his love for the Holy Prophet Muhammad by means of the Holy Quran. In his first book, Barahin Ahmadiyya, the arguments and evidence on the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad which he has given from the Quran are a shining example of knowledge of the Quran. After this too, in his other books, he has spread these pearls everywhere. Would that the Muslims, instead of reading books written by the religious leaders opposed to him, study his own works and judge him fairly. To look at something only through the eyes of its opposition obscures the real nature of that thing.

    However, the claim made in Barahin Ahmadiyya that 300 arguments will be adduced could not be fulfilled due to some Divine purpose. To express one’s real feelings, after reading the four parts of a work of high merit like the Barahin Ahmadiyya, you wish that you could enjoy even more of the fruit of its knowledge. However, if Hazrat Mirza sahib had exhausted the knowledge of the Holy Quran and the arguments on the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, he would have deprived us of the pleasure of research and investigation, and even closed the way for us to express our love for the Holy Prophet. But these people do not come in order to close down human thinking and reflection; rather, they come to make these mental faculties even sharper and more radiant.”

    He continued:

    “I am asked every year to make a speech on some topic at the annual Jalsa of the Anjuman. I have never published these speeches in written form, and despite repeated requests from friends I am not inclined to do so. Hazrat Amir Maulana Muhammad Ali once urged me to write a book on the topic of modern scientific knowledge and the Holy Quran. Last summer Mirza Muzaffar Baig insisted that I should collect together my articles on this topic, and they would be published. But what prevents me from so doing is that my knowledge is inadequate. While people praise my speeches every year, what I really wish is that scholarly and knowledgeable people would point out errors in them.”

    See: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/islam/colours.htm


  32. Dear Mr. Rashid:

    Hazrat Sahib (as) had even written that there were 400,000 Ahmadis in 1904.  One could argue that this number was incorrect as well.  Would you blame Hazrat sahib (as) for incorrectly giving numbers? 

    I dont accuse Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) of lying at all.  He gave the info that was presented to him.  Only Allah knows where all the converts went.  I dont understand why this is even relevant to you?  Why do continously attack us as if you are connected with Anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment.  Are you? 

    Secondarily, you try to prove that all Muslims are members of LAM.  That’s a fallacy and a boast on your part.  It seems that your numbers are so low that you are willing to compromise the status of Hazrat Sahib (as) just so that you have a connection with the Muslim Ummah.  I beg to disagree. 

    In Pakistan, the govt has declared us as Kafir.  Me and you.  We cant pray behind any of those people.  As per the declarations of Hazrat Sahib (as).  Nor can we participate in their funeral prayers. 

    The kingdom of Arabic has declared us Kafir.  Technically, we cant pray behind any Imam in that country as well. 

    I hope that I have respectfully answered your questions. 


  33. June 3rd, 2011 at 7:50 am
    From Fazil Jamal:

    Dear Rashid and Zahid Aziz,

    Thank you for the links regarding the figures of Qadiani Jamaat members. It is really helpful in establishing that they indeed claimed these figures.

    I am surprised that they erased these figures from the public domain. How come a matter of pride turned into an embarrassment?


  34. @Fazil Jamal,

    “I am surprised that they erased these figures from the public domain. How come a matter of pride turned into an embarrassment?”

    Lies have no feet. It is brain-washed followers, who are now left to defend lies of their “appointee of Allah”. At the same time they are looking for ways to keep their self-esteem intact.


  35. @Ahmad Jehangiri sahib:
     
    Dear your quote: “The hatred is yet again evident.”
     
    USA is overwhelmingly Christian country. Osama Bin Lade was her enemy number 1. After killing him, they went out of way to arrange Islamic funeral and prayers in Arabic etc for him. Because a character of persons and nations tells the truth behind their words at the death of his/ her opponents/ enemies. Action speaks louder than the words. You Qadiani-Jamaat brothers accuse LAM members of showing hatred towards Qadianis, is absolutely absurd. If you people step out of Qadiani mind-set for a moment and reflect you will realize it is the other way around. Qadianis don’t even show respect to their loved and dear ones, be they be their mothers or fathers, if even under duress they have renounced their Qadiani beliefs, or never held Qadiani beliefs. Qadianis do this by NOT offering funeral prayers for the deceased ones. Remember: If one has no respect for others dead, he has no love for others living. Qadianis don’t offer funeral paryers of those who were their well-wishers or even those hands who fed them when they were hungry! And then Qadiani friends have audacity to accuse LAM of showing hatred towards them! Qadianis shed crocodile tears. But when it is their turn, they show no mercy on their prey. Qadiani history is full of that. Starting in Qadian under Qadiani-Khilafat of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad.


  36. @Arshad:
     
    “Hazrat Sahib (as) had even written that there were 400,000 Ahmadis in 1904.  One could argue that this number was incorrect as well.  Would you blame Hazrat sahib (as) for incorrectly giving numbers?”
     
    HMGA was receiving Chanda (financial contributions) from his fans, so he knew what were his fans/ followers’ numbers. So, HMGA did NOT give incorrect numbers!
     
    “I dont accuse Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) of lying at all.  He gave the info that was presented to him.”
     
    If you think, Qadiani Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad was not lying, then you have to accept he was DELUSIONAL or IDIOT. He announced what ever he was fed is NO EXCUSE. He should have used his commonsense. Remember: An appointee of Allah is NOT delusional and Idiot. (Per HMGA). Your Qadiani jamaat is VERY GOOD AT ONE THING i.e. Collection of Chanda. Your Khalifa knows how many people are live in your jamaat and how much Chanda they pay. QK 4 has NOT excuse for lying ore rporting what ever was fed to him. He lied and it is matter of time for you Qadianis to accept the truth.
     
    “Only Allah knows where all the converts went.”
    They ALL became LAM members (per definition of HMGA regarding his jamaat).
     
    “I dont understand why this is even relevant to you? “
     
    It is important for me, because I want brainwashed followers of Qadiani Khalifas to WAKEUP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!
     
    “Why do continously attack us as if you are connected with Anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment.  Are you?”
     
    I am NOT connected with Anti-HMGA websites. I do NOT attack Qadianis. I only shake Qadianis to wakeup. I perform rehabilitation service to Qadianis. I want them to kick the drugs-intoxicated lives. It is because of Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brothers and his progeny that today people are cursing HMGA. It is because of you Qadianis, we at LAM face difficulties in spreading writings of HMGA among Pakistanis both inside and outside Pakistan.
     
    “Secondarily, you try to prove that all Muslims are members of LAM.  That’s a fallacy and a boast on your part. “
     
    I provided numbers of LAM members per definition given by HMGA. You obviously think HMGA was “not” telling the truth when he gave his definition. You are obviously accusing HMGA!
     
    “It seems that your numbers are so low that you are willing to compromise the status of Hazrat Sahib (as) just so that you have a connection with the Muslim Ummah.  I beg to disagree.”
     
    You Qadianis DISAGREE WITH HMGA! So, I’m not surprised you disagree with LAM. 
    We are NOT compromising HMGA status. Where as like Christians who raised status of Jesus to God, you Qadianis raised status of HMGA from reformer to messenger.
     
    “In Pakistan, the govt has declared us as Kafir.  Me and you.”
     
    In Pakistan LAM was declared Kafir because of Qadianis and especially because of QK2, QK3, QK 4. It was your QKs who called other Muslims Kafir and then tried to become King-Makers in Pakistani politics.
     
    “We cant pray behind any of those people.  As per the declarations of Hazrat Sahib (as).  Nor can we participate in their funeral prayers.”
     
    You Qadianis do NOT pray even behind LAM members. You Qadianis do NOT consider LAM as Muslims. Qadianis like you did NOT offer funeral prayer of LAM member (a lawyer by profession) who fed them when they were hungry, helped them get job and make their living, went to courts to defend them in Pakistani courts where because of Mullah-Fear even Qadiani lawyers were NOT appearing to defend their Qadiani fellows in cases where they were accused of blasphemy, preaching and murder!  
     
    “The kingdom of Arabic has declared us Kafir.  Technically, we cant pray behind any Imam in that country as well.”
     
    Yes, what Saudis did to you Qadianis, it was in direct result of you Qadianis and your Qadiani Khalifas. Still, you Qadianis go to Saudia for job and Hajj by cursing HMGA on Pakistani Passport applications. As per your Qadiani Khalifa 2 teachings you people do NOT offer prayers behind Imam of Kabba, even 60 years before you were banned by Saudis.
     
    I hope I answered your all points.
     


  37. Dear Mr Rashid,

    Your hate for the Ahmadiyyat jamaat resonates thru your writings.  May I ask as to what your motivation is?  All things being said, the LAM is a break-away group a splinter group so to speak.  The main Ahmadiyya thrust is the jamaat that I am associated with. 

    You blame everything on our Khalifas.  You ignore the revelations of HMGA (as) in terms of his family.  In the will, in a revelation that HMGA (as) recieved, it was revealed that Allah would allow disgrace to follow HMGA (as)…

    From Zahid Aziz’z translation:

    “Your destined end is nigh, and We shall not leave a trace of anything the mention of which would bring disgrace on you. Little remains of the time appointed for………”

    Now, considering your opinions of the family of HMGA (as), you claim that they have disgraced the name of HMGA (as). 

    I tell you honestly and humbly, the only reason why Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud was successful over Muhammad Ali was because Ahmadis clung to these very statements and revelations of HMGA (as)…


  38. Dear Arshad: I do not belong to Qadiani Jamaat. Now please convince or convert me to your school of thought. I believe that  to do so is your moral and religious duty. I give you head start with the following that I believe in. What do you have to add for your Jamaat?


    La ilaha ill-Allah, Muhammad-ur rasul-ullah
    “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”

    5:3. …This day have I perfected for you your faith and completed My blessings upon you and have chosen Islam for your religion…

    33:40. Muhammad is no father to any man among you but (he is rather) the Messenger of Allâh and the Seal of the Prophets. Indeed Allâh has full knowledge of all things. [Seal with no ifs ands or buts about it]

    34:28. (Prophet!) We have sent you not but towards entire mankind (till the end of time) as a Bearer of glad-tidings and as a Warner but most people do not know (that the Message of Islam is universal and the Qur’ân the last revealed Book).

    39:3. Beware! sincere and true obedience is due to Allâh alone. Those who choose others as a patron beside Him (say), `We serve them only that they may bring us near to Allâh in station.’ (It is absolutely wrong.)… [patron includes any entity even Muhammad PBUH himself]

    39:44. Say, `All intercession belongs to Allâh entirely. To Him belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, then towards Him you shall (all) be brought back.’
    5:104. …They say, `Sufficient for us is that (tradition) whereon we have found our forefathers.’ What! (would they follow them blindly) even though their forefathers had no knowledge whatsoever and had no guidance?
     


  39. Intellectual answers given by elders of LAM such as Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib, Khawaja Kamal ud Din sahib, ….. and to this day by people such as Dr. Zahid Aziz sahib fly over the heads of Qadianis. Unfortunately as result of almost century of brainwashing of Qadianis by their Qadiani Khalifas, their mental faculty is not receptive to rational talk.
     
    @Arshad:
     
    “Your hate for the Ahmadiyyat jamaat resonates thru your writings.”

    Qadianis hate general Muslims and even LAM so much that they don’t offer their funeral prayer. What other example of hate could be worse than this?
     
    “May I ask as to what your motivation is?”
    I do this to wake you people, from your intoxicated lives. Whatever Qadiani Khalifas pushed your throats; you swallowed it and now you in perpetual state of intoxication.
     
    “All things being said, the LAM is a break-away group a splinter group so to speak.  The main Ahmadiyya thrust is the jamaat that I am associated with.”

    Qadianis example is like Christians, who accuse Muslims of a break-away group/ splinter group. They believe their faith is correct compared to Muslims.
     
    “You blame everything on our Khalifas.”

    Yes, I blame Qadiani Khalifa 2,3,4 and now 5 continues the tradition. QK2 called other Muslims Kafir and 3, 4, practiced his teachings, in addition they tried to act as King-Maker in Pakistan and interfered in Pakistan’s politics. QK5 went to the extent of getting his followers officially banned and get declared as some separate faith in Indonesia, although Indonesian Qadianis previously successfully saved their skin by declaring HMGA to be their teacher, and guide, and NOT messenger in Islamic-terminology sense.
     
    “You ignore the revelations of HMGA (as) in terms of his family.:

    I asked you to read your “holy book” Tazkira and you will NOT flattery words of HMGA for his wife and children. He called himself like of Prophets Noah and Lot, as you know wife and children of those prophets were JUST LIKE that of HMGA. Despite prayers and wishes of HMGA, neither his wife (mother of QK2) nor any of his children got the honor of being buried in Behasti-Muqbara, in Qadian. Do you need more proof to realize that non of them qualified to be buried in Behasti-Muqbara, Qadian?
     
    “In the will, in a revelation that HMGA (as) recieved, it was revealed that Allah would not allow disgrace to follow HMGA (as)…
     
    Yes, I agree with this. QADIANI KHALIFAS 2,3,4,5 and their brainwashed followers brought disgrace to HMGA. In words of Abdul Manan Omar sahib: “I don’t give credit to all the misinformation and hate among Mullah and Muslims towards Maseeh Mahid (AS) to his Mullah opponents; rather I give credit for all this to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad [QK2]”. After release of 1974 parliament proceedings, Qadianis themselves will realize that it was their Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his brother writings and replies of QK3 in parliament were actually reason for disgrace to HMGA. What ever is happening to Qadianis in Pakistan, Allah is creating environment to clear HMGA name from all the charges of Qadianis and HMGA opponents.
     
    “Now, considering your opinions of the family of HMGA (as), you claim that they have disgraced the name of HMGA (as).”
     
    QK2 and his followers did to HMGA, what was exactly done by Paul and his followers to Eisa AS (Jesus).
     
    “the only reason why Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud was successful over Muhammad Ali was because Ahmadis clung to these very statements and revelations of HMGA (as)…”
     
    … that is why you Qadianis do NOT openly preach what he preached.
    Here are samples of QK2 teachings for you, I CHALLENGE YOU TO PREACH TO MUSLIMS, AND PUT IT ON BUSES IN NY CITY AND LONDON:
     
    QADIANI KHALIFA 2 QUOTES WITH REFERENCES AND PAGE NUMBERS.

    See quotes in these links:

    http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

    http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir-kalimat-ul-fasl.htm


  40. @Arshad:

    May be you would like to comment on your friend Tahir Mansoor Khan. He is in the news.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhfewV-CJFs&feature=youtu.be


  41. Dear Mr. Ikram:

    I don not wish to convert you to Ahmadiyyat.  Far from it, I believe in live and let live.  If you feel that there were some errors in the family of Hazrat Sahib (as) you have the right to feel that way.  I was only wishing to provide some feedback from the other side of the coin so to speak. 

    Dear Mr. Rashid:

    Didnt Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad give his approval for any Ahmadi to participate in the funeral services for the late Muhammad Ali sahib?  I had read that somewhere in the past. 

    Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad called Muslims Kafirs in the same vein as Hazrat Sahib (as) did in his letter to Dr. Abdul Hakim Khan Murtadd.  The sons of Hazrat sahib were only more boastful and upfront then their late father (as). 

    On a side note, you change your approach, you come off as someone who has been victimised intensely my by jamaat.  Has anyone ever wronged you as such? 


  42. @Arshad:
     
    “Didnt Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad give his approval for any Ahmadi to participate in the funeral services for the late Muhammad Ali sahib?  I had read that somewhere in the past. “
     
    It sounds like one of that story narrated on Pakistani Private TV channel ‘Point Blank with Mubashir Luqman’ on Express TV by your Qadiani Incharge in Pakistan Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. When in actions Qadianis do NOT offer funeral prayer of Muslims and LAM but tell stories that they offered prayers of 1965 Pak-India war martyrs.
     
    “Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad called Muslims Kafirs in the same vein as Hazrat Sahib (as) did in his letter to Dr. Abdul Hakim Khan Murtadd.  The sons of Hazrat sahib were only more boastful and upfront then their late father (as).”
     
    Now you’re adopting typical approach of Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his brother. You try to accuse HMGA and thus justify QK2’s actions. This you people do only in presence of LAM. I’m wondering if indeed you’re Qadiani or one of HMGA opponent in disguise of Qadiani, just to malign HMGA. We have seen such posters on this forum in past.
     
    “On a side note, you change your approach, you come off as someone who has been victimised intensely my by jamaat.”
     
    Yes, HMGA and LAM are victimized by QK2. It is because of him that people are cursing HMGA and LAM is facing difficulties in its mission in Pakistan.
     
    “Has anyone ever wronged you as such?”
     
    For your information, a very BAD QADIANI talked nasty about my father in-law. His speech in 1956 against my father in-law turned out to be his last speech. He had stroke and was paralyzed for rest of his life. He had such an end that I won’t wish it for my worst enemy. That BAD QADIANI was Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad. If Allah took revenge Himself from someone who did wrong to my father in-law then, why should I complain? 


  43. @Arshad:

    You’re under the impression that LAM misrepresents HMGA claim, beliefs, mission, status, teachings, etc and LAM presents kind of “diluted” and “water downed” version Qadianis understanding on these issues.

    Let’s take opinion of impartial person who respectfully addresses HMGA and is considered a scholar of Islam by educated citizens of Pakistan. Let’s listen to what Javed Ahmad Ghamidi sahib says about HMGA writings after making claim of honestly reading them, and challenging his opponents to prove him wrong:
    Ghamidi on Ahmadiyya Prophethood Claim (1 of 8 )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkBTTTRo8Fw&feature=BF&playnext=1&list=QL&index=2
     
     


  44. Dear Rashid,

    Your family problems are very deep indeed.  Who was your father-in-law?  Was it Abdul Manaan?  It is very sad that anyone ever left Ahmadiyyat.  It hurts me even more that there are extenuating circumstances with your case.  It puzzles me that you are still an Ahmadi. 

    FYI:  I am not any type of spy that you people accuse me of.  These are very heinous allegations.  I have been very respectful. 


  45. Targeting minorities: No friend to Ahmadis in Faisalabad

    By Shamsul Islam
    Published: June 9, 2011

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/185179/targeting-minorities-no-friend-to-ahmadis-in-faisalabad/

    Today Qadianis in Pakistan are paying with their blood for ‘Teaching of Hatred of Qadiani Khalifa 2’ and  for ‘Political Ambitions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 and 4’.

    @Arshad:
    My father in-law founded ‘Haqiqat Passand Party’. Watch his YouTube Videos:
    http://www.youtube.com/ahmediyyagazette1#p/u/50/WBdMAmbW2rY


  46. Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad Communiqué
     
    As preemptive measures against definite and expected humiliation after release of 1974 testimony/ cross questions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir in Pakistan National Assembly (as contrary to claims of QK3 half of Pakistan will join their Qadiani jamaat and according to claim of QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad whole of Pakistan will join Qadiani Jamaat) NO ONE in Pakistan will join Qadiani Jamaat, Qadianis have started saying that Pakistan Government will change by adding/ deleting the print version of QK3 testimony.
     
    This is quite an absurd aspersion by Qadianis. If Mullahs make changes in Qadiani beliefs then they will only make their case weak against Qadianis. Qadianis hold belief that that HMGA was a messenger of Allah SWT like Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. So, it goes in favour of Pakistani Mullah to present testimony of QK3 as it is.
     
    On the other hand QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad has taken another preemptive measure against possible fissures in his organization in wake of release of QK3 testimony.  It is very much possible QK3 inside the national assembly back tracked from Qadianis established belief about HMGA, just the way his father QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad backtracked in Munir Inquiry Commission.
    QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad in his communiqué dated May 21, 2011 instructed his lieutenants to openly and unambiguously state, in their talks with others, that HMGA was “Messenger-of-Allah” (Nabi-Ullah).
    I wonder if QK5 will also change his title in his communiqué from “Khalifa-tul-Massih” to “Khalifa-tul-Rasool”?
    Here is link to scan image of QK5 communiqué posted on anti-HMGA website ahmedi.org:
    http://ahmediorg.yuku.com/topic/3711/Prophethood-of-MGA-now-open-secret
     
     


  47. Truth about claim of status of HMGA comes out of mouth of opponent of HMGA Shaikh Ahmad Karim (a former Qadiani). In his youtube video he read HMGA letter published in newspaper: Al Hakam, August 17, 1899 issue.
     
    In his video he makes a point that HMGA on August 17, 1899 confirms receiving Ilham for 20 years in which words such as ‘Rasool’ and ‘Nabi’ are used for him. That means Allah SWT has been addressing him with such words since 1879. Shaikh Ahmad Karim repeats it multiple times that HMGA does NOT mean these words make him Rasool and Nabi like Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS or others prophets before him. 
     
    Shaikh Ahmad Karim also makes point that as HMGA passed away in 1908 (so per standard for a true ‘appointee of Allah SWT’ to live for at least 23 years after making claim like Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS) so HMGA lived for 29 years after receiving such Ilhams. As HMGA made it clear that he was NOT Rasool and Nabi like Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, that is why he was able to live longer than 23 years.
     
    Shaikh Ahmad Karim also makes another point that if we accept what Qadianis say that HMGA changed his claim to real prophethood after he was able to “truly understand” his status in 1901; then according to 23-year standard to prove truthfulness of ‘appointee of Allah’ HMGA was proved to be a liar (nauzubilah) as he could NOT live beyond 23 years and died within 8 years.
     
    Shaikh Ahmad Karim is asking Qadianis, instead of accepting what Qadiani “scholars” and Khalifa say, go by writing of HMGA and see what he himself wrote and also the standard of 23-year as promoted by HMGA.
     
    I hope Shaikh Ahmad Karim himself understands what he has explained to Qadianis.
    His video:
    540- Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani Denies As Prophet & Ahmadiyya Cult Says He Was!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbIdeH1r3o0&feature=related
     
     


  48. @ Rashid

    May I ask why you spared Khalifa#1(Noor-u-din) from this list. I mean Logically as you’ve mentioned earlier HMGA wish was that Ajuman will be the successor. As per your claim LMA are on right path(true followers of HMGA) than in the light of HMGA claim you Muhammad Ali should have separated from Mainstream Qadiyani jamat at the moment First Khalifa annouced his khilafat. Because that was the point when as per your claim Jamat was drifting away from what HMGA said.

    Please clearly explain why do you guys believe in first khalifa and not the rest. Please do not include the personality attack and excuses. Clearly state what is Mohammed Ali point of view about this issue. From what I’ve heard Mohammed Ali did raise the voice in the time of Irst Khalifa but once he saw that its not the right time yet. He backed down temporarily.

    Second Question is: LMA believe in HMGA as being truthful. So it was same HMGA who had a revelation from GOD about a divine son. Now obviously LMA believe Mohammed Ali as being the devine son and not Mirza Mahmood Ahmad(II khalifa of qadiayanis). I have the whole statement of the Sabaz Ishtihar. Can you tell me how does Mohammed Ali fit to every quality mentioned in the devine son revealation?

    Third Question: You believe HMGA was truthful. So obviously his jamat was a bunch of people following a truthful person. The time of this separation majority stayed with qadiyani belief and few went with LMA. Why God didnt give this opportunity to majority to split away and join LMA??

    Fourth Question: If Mohammed Ali was on right path. He was obviously going for a noble cause, why did he need to take all the money from qadiyani jamat fund. If Mohammed Ali was a true believer he would have shown the qualities of the religious leader(HMGA) he was following. HMGA started jamat from null with minimum or sometimes zero funds and a true person would never accumulate funds for future he should alwayd have trust in GOD.

    Fifth Question: Every organization/person exists till they  have a goal/objective of life. What is the Goal or objective of LMA? If there is any than how do you see GOD helping you achieving that. Like can you quote any manifestation of GOD that makes all LMA followers committed and energetic that Yes we have support of GOD.
    If however LMA has no goal then why do they exist. Its like existing with millions of useless people around the world with no Goal. Doesnt that fail the purpose of the descent and claim of HMGA.

    Few Basic Questions to do a fair comparison beside bashing and mud slinging from both sides
    How many mosques does LMA established throughout the world?
    How many mission houses? How many missionaries sent to world?
    How many LMA TV channels are propagating islam right now?
    How many humatarian organizations does LMA have?
    How many schools, hospitals, water supplies did LMA establish/maintain in Africa and throughout world every year?
    Which countries LMA hold annual jalsa salana annually? In your view if one organization hold more jalsa salana would it mean they are seeing God support and manifestation more than the other? Becoz that means carrying on the sacred tradition of Jalsa Mazahab-e-azam throughout the world.

    Please refrain from accusations and claims that you cant back up with solid reference. Also jokes and made up stories that you cant reference properly would not


  49. August 17th, 2011 at 4:12 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    For the sake of the above writer, I am deeply embarrassed to publish his comments because they show a total lack of basic knowledge. These questions have been answered for several decades and their answers are available, in the clearest possible form, on the website on which this blog is hosted. Please look at the material on the link: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/cont-ahm.htm

    I fail to understand from where he has learnt that “Now obviously LMA believe Mohammed Ali as being the devine son”.

    He writes near the end: “Few Basic Questions to do a fair comparison beside bashing and mud slinging from both sides.” We are thoroughly familiar with this tactic used by some of our critics of pretending to be neutral between the two sides, by throwing in a remark like this (saying “both sides”), while actually supporting the other side.

    As to this list of achievements, the general Muslims (the ones you call kafir and outside the pale of Islam) could claim that they excel you vastly in terms of population, mosques, ulama, and even number of states (your khalifas had to flee from the two places where they tried to establish a state, Qadian and then Rabwah). Christians, e.g. the Catholic church, could make the same claim of excelling over all Muslims of the world. Does it mean that the general Muslims are true vis-a-vis you, or that Christian beliefs are true vis-a-vis Muslim beliefs?
       
      


  50. @Tag:
     
    Dear Tag,
    I will be spending my very precious time answering your questions. Could you please show me a courtesy of acknowledging my replies and promising that you will NEVER raise the same questions again as a mischievous act?
     
    Question 1:
    Why LAM accepts Maulana Noor ud Din as Khalifa of HMGA but not Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad or Qk3, 4 and now 5?
     
    Answer:
    Khalifa in Shariat terminology is ONLY that ONE person who immediately comes after Mamur-min-Allah. And he is ALWAYS the FIRST person who did ba’it of that Mamur-min-Allah.
    Hazrat Abu Bakr was first person to do the ba’it of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, and he was the ONLY Khalifa of him. Hazrat Umar Farooq or Hazrat Usman and Ali were NOT Khalifa of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS in Shariat terminology.
    Like wise Maulana Noor ud Din was the FIRST person to do ba’it of HMGA so he was his ONLY Khalifa in Shariat terminology.
    Other than that word Khalifa in dictionary sense has many meaning like Political Head of state, or even a Nai (barber), or a Crazy person.
     
    Question 2:
    Why LAM does not accept QK2 as divine son of HMGA?
     
    Answer:
    HMGA all his life could NOT figure out who will be his divine son. He even thought IF there is a possibility that his divine son will be fathered by him, then he better try to father a son, and he tried that. But after a while he wrote to Maulana Noor ud Din that the divine son whose image has been shown to him in his dream/ vision and his looks and character that he saw, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have him from mother of Qadiani Khalifa 2. And for that he might have to marry again. Basically he was saying, that from the looks and character of his then wife (i.e. mother of QK2) he can NOT have the divine son. This means Character and Looks of mother of QK2 were BAD!!
    Moreover, just like every Qadiani believes that they are sons and daughters of HMGA in spiritual sense then it is very much possible that, Promised Son could be anyone who believes HMGA to be a genuine Mamur-min-Allah among children of current Qadianis or LAM member or even someone who is neither a Qadiani or LAM member.
    Last but NOT the least, anybody COULD be a Promised Son (subject to certain conditions) but Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad could NEVER be one. QK2 personal character was worst than animals. He was worst than any imagination. Just read ‘Rabwah Ka Raasputin’ by Tahir Rafiq (a former Qadiani) or watch his videos on youtube.
     
    Question 3:
    Why majority of HMGA did not go with LAM in 1914?
    Answer:
    Many reasons:
    1-     Media was not so powerful like today’s Internet and satellite news channels. People outside Qadian hardly knew what happened there.
    2-     People did NOT know the TRUE BELIEFS of QK2, in 1914.
    3-     In all societies the Brain (i.e. intellectuals) are less in number and Body (rest of followers) are more. Brains of Ahmadiyya Movement of HMGA moved to Lahore in 1914.
    4-     In every society people who worship hero (Piri-Mureedi) are more. And specially many who had joined HMGA movement came from that background and they stayed where there was city of their Master (Pir) i.e. HMGA and where there was his and Maulana Noor ud Din graves.
    5-     Many thought in 1914 it is a temporary split, even LAM elders had same opinion, and that they will all return to ‘Darul-Amman’ i.e. Qadian.
     
    Question 4:
    Why Maulana Muhammad Ali brought jamaat funds to Lahore in 1914?
     
    Answer:
    The ONLY person who accompanied Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib from Qadian to Lahore was MY MATERNAL GRANDFATHER (Shaikh Muhammad Naseeb). Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib came EMPTY HANDED. He did NOT even bring with him the manuscript of Holy Quran English Translation. On the day after he arrived in Lahore Dr. Muhammad Hussain sent his servant and on instructions of Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib, brought the manuscript, which was at that time in the newer house of Sir Zafarullah Khan, the one that is on outskirts of Qadian. So, this is ABSOLUTE LIE that Maulana Muhammad Ali brought some funds with him to Lahore.
    Even if he had done it, still it would have been absolutely acceptable as HE WAS THE PRESIDENT of Sadar Anjuman, and he was responsible for the funds until next President takes over.
     
    Question 5:
    What is goal of LAM?
     
    Answer:
    Actually there are many goals of LAM. So much so that finances and manpower is, like always, less.  Few of LAM goals:
    1-     To Constantly clear the misconceptions created about HMGA by Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his followers in Muslims minds.
    2-     To constantly tell Muslims, that QK2 beliefs that all those Muslims who have NOT even heard name of HMGA are like monkeys, dogs, Christians, Hindus, and that THOUSANDS OR MORE PROPHETS CAN COME IN FUTURE, are absolutely wrong, lies and NOT that of HMGA.
    3-     To constantly tell Muslims that Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad, the so called “Moon of Prophets” were WRONG when they wrote that HMGA use to get his legs messaged by a woman Bano, or that he use to sniff pants of Muhammadi Begum.
    4-     To constantly continue the mission of HMGA by making his books and their translations available to world wide readers.
    5-     To constantly produce quality literature on Islam for propagation and defense of Islam in a peaceful manner.
    6-     To fulfill VISION of HMGA where he handed his mission to small party of 5 thousand followers and did NOT give to large party of 100 thousand followers.
     
    Question 6:
    How many mosques LAM has?
     
    Answer:
    According to HMGA those who do not oppose him are AMONG HIS JAMAAT, even if they have NOT done his ba’it. Obviously, this is NOT belief of Qadiani Jamaat. But this is belief LAM. Thus there are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF LAM members and MILLIONS OF LAM MOSQUES. Per HMGA belief one does NOT have to sign ba’it form or pay Chanda (financial contributions) to LAM to be among HMGA jamaat. LAM members have NO problem in offering prayer in any one of their MILLIONS OF MOSQUES.
     
    Question 7:
    How many mission houses LAM has?
     
    Answer:
    LAM has MILLION of mission houses. Every mosque is a mission house, per HMGA belief.
     
    Question 8:
    How many TV Channels LAM has?
     
    Answer:
    Many Channels, especially in Arab countries. Any Muslim channel that does NOT speak ill of HMGA. Per HMGA they are from his jamaat.
     
    Question 9:
    How many humanitarian organizations LAM has?
     
    Answer:
    Again numerous. All humanitarian organizations run by Muslims. Per HMGA beliefs.
     
    Question 10:
    How many schools, hospitals, roads etc LAM built?
     
    Answer:
    Again thousands of them. Per HMGA beliefs.
     
    BTW: Tell your Qadiani Khalifa 5 and his stooges that don’t make his followers stupid like QK2, 3 and 4. Tell him CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME.
    Go visit Rabwah and see for yourself the BROKEN ROADS AND POOR PUBLIC WORKS. Tell your QK5 that prove to his followers in Rabwah that Qadianis do build roads by building them in Qadiani followers neighborhoods in Rabwah. The schools and road construction by Qadianis in Africa is  a BIG SCAM, only to loot QK’s followers hard earned monies.
     
    Mr. Tag,
    You can reject my answers ONLY IF YOU DECIDE TO REJECT HMGA SAYINGS AND WRITINGS.
     


  51. Youtube video:
    Declaring Ahmadiyya As Non Muslim By Zulfikar Bhutto_s Government In 1974 Was A Political Stunt
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5qk-65MDC4&feature=related
     


  52. Coming back to the original topic, a Paksinai business daily has again reported that the 1974 proceedings may be unvieled in the next session of parliment.


  53. Logical outcome of 2nd Constitutional Amendment

    Following news report on Al Jazeera explains plight of Shia Muslims in Pakistan.

    I rememeber in 1974, our Shia Neighbour (parents of Pakistani pop singer Ali Haider) saying, “after Ahmadis, it will be turn of Shia”. His words were so prophetic!

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/10/2011105145451806959.html

         


  54. October 8th, 2011 at 5:36 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    1. I heard at the time in 1974 that some Shias in Lahore said to Ahmadis: You were few, that’s why they succeeded against you. Let them try it against us, and they will find out what we can do!

    2. Soon after the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslim in 1974, I heard that some Shias had gone to court claiming that Sunnis should also be declared as non-Muslim because they recite the same Kalima as Ahmadis, and if Ahmadis are non-Muslim, then so are Sunnis. Z.A. Bhutto then stepped in and had the case terminated!


  55. Political decisions by politicians aside, it is the mindset and the idealogical foundations both causing such decisions and then taking sustenance from them, that are the problem.  Shias are Muslims “on paper” in Pakistan but many Sunni groups, some of them openly patronised by some politicians, consider them Kafirs and wajib-ul-qatl.  And the result is the carnage being currently witnessed.  


  56. The late Salman Taseer is considered guilty of blasphemy because he declared that a certain person accused of blasphemy is innocent or that the blasphemy law is itself wrong and unjust. Without himself at all committing blasphemy, he is considered guilty by association.

    This, in fact, parallels the situation whereby not only are Ahmadis non-Muslims under the law of Pakistan, but anyone who, as a Muslim, doesn’t regard Ahmadis as non-Muslim is also declared a non-Muslim. Thus a person who does not even hold Ahmadiyya beliefs, who may even consider those beliefs to be wrong, becomes a non-Muslim by association.

    If Mumtaz Qadri is freed, it would mean that if anyone in Pakistan considers that, in his opinion, some other person has committed blasphemy, he is entitled under the law immediately to murder that person. The killer would not even need to prove that his victim had committed blasphemy, because the killer’s judgment is sufficient!

    Contrast this with the Holy Prophet Muhammad’s reply to husbands, telling them that if one of them even saw with his own eyes his wife with another man, he cannot apply any punishment by his own hands but must bring witnesses before a judge and prove his accusation. The Holy Prophet said if the enraged husband killed the other man or the wife, he would be guilty of the crime of murder, and if the husband spread allegations against his wife without witnesses he would be punished for slandering.


  57.  
    Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto planted the seed of ‘Might is Right on the Name of Islam’ in Pakistan in 1974. In Zia Ul Haq time it became adolescent tree. In last few years it has become a mighty tree. And now it has started producing its progeny. Pakistanis will keep on feeding their blood to this tree, and it will keep on nourishing, getting bigger and procreating. And more Pakistanis will feed their blood to this tree’s progeny and it will keep procreating. The cycle will continue…

    Following article on Pak Tea House blog tells the future of Pakistan:

    RELEASE OF MUMTAZ QADRI
    http://pakteahouse.net/2011/10/19/release-of-mumtaz-qadri/

       

     


  58. http://www.dawn.com/2011/10/25/qadri-case-judge-sent-abroad.html

    LAHORE: The district and sessions judge, who had handed down two death sentences to Mumtaz Qadri for killing Punjab governor Salman Taseer, has left for Saudi Arabia along with his family after receiving death threats from extremists.

    Mullah-Mafia in Pakistan exactly copying practices of Drug-Mafia in Latin America! 


  59. October 25th, 2011 at 6:46 pm
    From Muhammad Ali:

    This time the thing which is most alarming is that it is not only the Mullahs which are supporting Qadri. But I am myself surprised to see the sympathy for Qadri in masses. The educated people whether they are lawyers or professionals, many of them are supporting Qadri. I believe this Qadri issue is going to tell us a lot about the fate of this nation in future.

    In no civlized society a murderer can be praised. And here are the lawyers whom are supposed to be the guardians of law. The same people are praising the act of Qadri. One cannot predict where and when the downfall of this country will end.


  60. I came across following Newspaper article. I am sharing it with readers.

      ANALYSIS: Persecution of Ahmedis in the Islamic Republic —Yasser Latif Hamdani
    Daily Times
    Monday, December 05, 2011
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C12%5C05%5Cstory_5-12-2011_pg3_6

     


  61. February 5th, 2012 at 4:43 am
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    NA record declaring Ahmedis as minority declassified

    The News
    Tahir Khalil
    Friday, January 20, 2012

    http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=88576&Cat=2&dt=1/20/2012

    ISLAMABAD: The secret parliamentary record, declaring Ahmedis as a minority was declassified here on Thursday.

    National Assembly Speaker Dr Fehmida Mirza has approved the opening of the secret record of the constitutional amendment after 38 years. The entire record of the secret Ahmedi Amendment Bill has, therefore, been declassified.

    The third constitutional amendment, declaring Qadianis as minority, was passed by the National Assembly during the tenure of Prime Minister ZA Bhutto on September 17, 1974. The entire house was declared as standing committee for the purpose, and its sessions were held in camera.

    During four sessions, the then head of Jamat-e-Ahmadiya Mirza Tahir Ahmed had given arguments in support of his stance, and the Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar had conducted his detailed cross arguments.

    The written record was kept sealed as the entire proceedings were held in camera. Under the Official Secret Act, any document can be held secret for 30 years before it is opened. Sources have revealed that audio records pertaining to the secret Ahmedi Amendment Bill had gutted during a fire in 1993 during Benazir tenure.

    The preparation and printing the secret record of declaring Ahmedis as minority has cost the National Assembly Rs4.6 million, which has been declassified and kept in the Parliament House Library.

    Meanwhile, the Leader of Opposition in the Senate Abdul Ghafoor Haidary has also formally contacted the National Assembly Secretariat for access to the parliamentary record pertaining to declaring Ahmedis as minority.


  62. This news report says: “During four sessions, the then head of Jamat-e-Ahmadiya Mirza Tahir Ahmed had given arguments in support of his stance, …”

    I hope the released record is more accurate than this statement! 


  63. February 5th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    In 1974 National Assembly proceedings issues other than whether Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members are Muslim or not came into discussion. One such issue on which LAM witness Abdul Manan Omar sahib talked was ‘Punishment of Apostasy in Islam’. National Assembly members accepted the interpretation made by Abdul Manan Omar sahib. And on orders of Speaker of National Assembly, Mr. Farooq Ali the decision was placed on the record. The decision was: ‘There is NO death penalty for apostasy in Islam’. I hope this is available in the declassified proceedings. And I hope Pakistanis agree what their representatives approved on at least this subject.


  64. Who knows that this may be the start of the very long road back? First the records are released. Then people start reading the proceedings and re-examining them, then they begin questioning their legitimacy from both the Islamic and constitutional/legal aspects.

    Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote in a verse of poetry in Persian:

    “Today my people do not recognise my status,
    The day will come when they will remember with tears the happy times [of his advent].”

    Perhaps we may not be destined to see it, but our children or their children may see it.


  65. Can some one please share the NA declassified report or advise where to get it from. Thanks


  66. A question for Mr. Rashid: 

    I have pasted an excerpt from one of your comments, in the thread above.   I couldn’t resist asking this question:

    …Where as Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, in accordance with belief and claim of HMGA hold belief that all such Muslims who do not oppose HMGA are members of their movement. Regardless whether they have signed 10 conditions of HMGA ba’it or not. Based on this belief of HMGA, LAM membership is in HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, and LAM mosques are in Millions around the world. Do you have problem with this??? You will have problem with this only, if you question HMGA belief and claim!!!!!!
    Remember: LAM members pray in any mosque, where no one opposes HMGA and LAM members offer funeral prayers of Muslims who have not opposed HMGA.
      Comment posted on June 2nd, 2011 at 8:24 am.

    Brother what I get from your comment is that the LAM joins hands with anyone who does not oppose Mirza Sahab Sr. Right?
    And from reading the thread I got an impression that LAM is in majority, when compared to the QAM. Right?
    but the situation at hand clearly indicates that not even a single sunni, or shia or anyone from a foreign sect i.e. non-ahmedi, believes in Mirza sahab Qadiyani. So keeping in mind this fact the total number of LAM is automatically deprived of the sunni, shia population. Right?
    So now the question  that further bugs me is that what is the actual LAM and QAM population globally? 

    The next question that you may put forward could be that its because of the QAM’s point of view and teachings that Mirza sahab’s reputation has been maligned? If that is the question, why hasn’t the LAM been able to rectify the situation by regaining the stature and position of Mirza Sahib by painting the right picture till today, and why has QAM, as you accuse them, been successful in defaming him or propagating his teachings wrongly? Despite the strength that you guys have, shouldn’t the things have been the other way round?

    I would be obliged if we continue thiss debate following the principles of logic and not politics, mud slinging etc.

    Jazak Allah. 


  67. @Zafar:

    “Brother what I get from your comment is that the LAM joins hands with anyone who does not oppose Mirza Sahab Sr. Right?
    And from reading the thread I got an impression that LAM is in majority, when compared to the QAM. Right?
    but the situation at hand clearly indicates that not even a single sunni, or shia or anyone from a foreign sect i.e. non-ahmedi, believes in Mirza sahab Qadiyani. So keeping in mind this fact the total number of LAM is automatically deprived of the sunni, shia population. Right?
    So now the question that further bugs me is that what is the actual LAM and QAM population globally?  ”

    If  a Qadiani does NOT agree with my reason for saying that LAM is more in numbers then QAM then there problem is with HMGA. Simply, because my answer is based on HMGA belief. Remember QAM does NOT believe that Muslims who have not done ba’it of Qadiani Khalifa could be among the party of HMGA.   

    “The next question that you may put forward could be that its because of the QAM’s point of view and teachings that Mirza sahab’s reputation has been maligned? If that is the question, why hasn’t the LAM been able to rectify the situation by regaining the stature and position of Mirza Sahib by painting the right picture till today, and why has QAM, as you accuse them, been successful in defaming him or propagating his teachings wrongly? Despite the strength that you guys have, shouldn’t the things have been the other way round?”

    If you pay attention to your beliefs you will realize YOU YOURSELF IS AMONG THE PARTY OF HMGA, at least in practice. This is all due to LAM efforts.

    LAM efforts to propagate HMGA beliefs:

    1-All reciters of Kalima-Shahada are Muslims.
    2-Not a single dot of Holy Quran is abrogated.
    3-Allah SWT is a LIVING God.  Who listens to our supplications.
    4-Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS was the LAST prophet. No new or old prophet can come after him.
    5-Jihad does NOT mean to go and kill peaceful non-Muslims of the world. By giving them one of the two options i.e. Become Muslims or get ready to die.
    6-If non-Muslim rulers in the country in which Muslims and YOU are living and they are giving full freedom of Religion to Muslims then there is NO reason to pick sword/bombs/terrorist acts to kill non-Muslims in that country. DO YOU DISAGREE? PLEASE YOU MUST ANSWER. Otherwise it will be assumed that you support such acts while living in a non-Muslim country.
    7-Jesus is dead.    
    8-Yajooj-Majooj (Gog-Magog) is not some supernatural animal. Rather a humans living in West from Christian background.


  68. May 8th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
    From Tahir Ijaz:

    @ Rashid

    What if Muslims call Mirza sahib (as) Kafir?  What does that make them?  How does the entire country of Pakistan feel??  

    The Ulema of Mecca have called Ahmadis as Kafirs.  Does that make them non-Muslim? 

    The story is as such:  Mirza sahib had agreed to not call Muslims as Kafirs in 1898.  Hence, he shyed away from it.         


  69. May 9th, 2012 at 5:43 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The opinion of Hazrat Maulana Nur-ud-Din on this point is quoted below:

    Non-Ahmadis
    Hazrat Khalifat-ul-Masih said: We call non-Ahmadis as non-Ahmadis. Those who apply the verdict of kufr to us, their kufr applies to them according to the Hadith. We do not apply anything to them ourselves.”
    (Badr, 23 March 1911, page 5, col. 3)


  70. @Tahir Ijaz:
    I think Dr. Zahid Aziz gave you a succinct reply.

    @Zafar:
    Since you have not replied, i take that you agree with me.


  71. May 10th, 2012 at 8:08 pm
    From Tahir Ijaz:

    A question for Dr. Aziz

    How does the statement of Noorudin (ra) tally up with the decision of 1974?

    What about the ulema of Mecca?  What have they said about us?       


  72. May 10th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    The answer is simply that any person or group which calls Kalima-proclaiming Muslims as kafir and expelled from Islam is declared the same by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) We haven’t declared them kafir or passed any judgment on them. Of course if they have done so through not correctly knowing our beliefs, then our duty is to remove their misunderstanding.


  73. Those who can understand Urdu may like to watch following video and see for themselves how much Prime Minister of Pakistan, Chairman of Pakistan Peoples Party Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was proud of his “service to Islam” by declaring Kalima-Shahada reciters as Kafir (non-Muslims). Affectees included members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement.  LAM had nothing to do with political tussle between Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad (including his brother later QK 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad) and Z. A. Bhutto; or with Rabwah Railway Station incident in which Qadianis maimed Nishtar Medical College students, in 1974.

    Despite ZAB “service to Islam” he was not only declared Kafir by his political Mullah opponents, he was also declared Kafir by Chief Justice of Lahore High Court Maulvi Mushtaq Hussain in the final judgment that convicted ZAB for murder of his political opponent’s father.  

    This did not stop there. Per video his genitals were photographed by ISI (Pakistan’s premier Intelligence Agency) after his death at the gallows. They all had suspicion that he was an uncircumcised Hindu.

    No wonder Allah SWT guards His authority jealously. It is up to Him to decide who is a Muslim and who is Kafir.
    Zulfiqar Bhutto Declared Ahmadiyya Non Muslims Politically 1974 Constitution, had Miserable End
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2PwFd8wFg&feature=related


  74. King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement

    Declaration of Ahmadis (belonging to Qadiani Jamaat and LAM) as non-Muslim by elected political PPP government of Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was immediate consequence of political ambitions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad, and involvement into politics of Qadiani Jamaat at their organizational level in 1970 general elections of Pakistan.

    To hide the WRONG decisions and roles of QK3 and QK4, Qadiani followers try their best to detract their critics among fellow Qadianis and others by cultivating baseless reasons for fiasco of Qadiani Khalifas actions. According to these Qadianis, “Ahmadis were declared non-Muslim because Bhutto wanted to be champion of Islam, and to promote his stature after Islamic Summit held in February 1974 in Lahore, and he was under pressure from King Faisal of Saudi Arabia to do so”. The cover up for political decisions of Qadiani Khalifas by their followers are nothing less than BLATANT LIES.

    The fact is that King Faisal knew long before beliefs of Ahmadis, especially LAM beliefs. And he considered them full and complete Muslims. This is evident from the fact that he offered prayers behind LAM Imam at Woking Muslim Mission. There are photographs to support this evidence.

    In early 1950s when late Maulana Abdul Manan Omar sahib (son of Maulana Noor ud Din sahib) was resident of Rabwah, he spent 6 months as state guest of Saudi King Ibn-Saud. Abdul Manan Omar sahib was honored for his work of codification (Tabweeb) of Hadith book ‘Musnad Ahmad bin Hambal’. During his stay, posters against him appeared in Kabbah mosque, in  Makkah. Posters basically declared him as non-Muslim (nauzubilah). King Faisal at that the time was Governor of Makkah. Instead of giving into demands of Mullah-opponents he resolved issue in another way. On King Faisal advice Imam of Kabbah invited many Mullah of Makkah on a tea. And put them a question: “What you would consider a man who has giving his entire youth for Tabweeb of Musnad, would you consider him a Kafir (non-Muslim)?” In reply guests said, “His hands deserve to be kissed”. Imam of Kabbah introduced Abdul Manan Omar sahib that as the man who did this blessed work. And ALL guests kissed Abdul Manan Omar sahib’s hands.

    Followers of Qadiani Khalifas can say blatant lies as they wish, but facts don’t support them. Please go to July 2012 edition, page 7, of ‘The Light’ and see King Faisal photo at Woking Muslim Mission, after praying behind an Ahmadi Imam.

    http://ahmadiyya.org/uk/light-jul12.pdf
     


  75. July 3rd, 2012 at 10:13 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    See this link for a report of this occasion published at the time.


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