Accusation against us by a Qadiani Jamaat member
A member of the Qadiani Jamaat in California has alleged that the Lahore Ahmadiyya Jamaat has falsely inserted the following statement into its English translation of the book Kitab-ul-Bariyya by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad:
“I was born towards the last days of Sikh rule in 1839 or 1840.”
The reason for this accusation is that in their own Jamaat’s literature they read that the Promised Messiah was born in 1835 (of course we also accept that date). Qadiani Jamaat members appear to think that any statement in our publications which happens to conflict with something in their publications must be a deliberate falsehood. This gentleman claims that he has read through Kitab-ul-Bariyya and did not find any words like the above in it.
I have responded by simply making a sworn statement that I have read this book on the Qadiani Jamaat’s own website, and these words in Urdu are present in it. I have asked the accuser to make a similar sworn statement that he has read the book and that these words are not in it and that “Lahoris” or Zahid Aziz have falsely inserted them. I have asked that he can also try getting his accusation published in his Jamaat’s organs.
Perhaps his Jamaat would care to comment.
From Vega:
salaams.
Does the PM not make it clear in Roohani Khazain Vol 4, Page 355, 374 that he was commissioned in his 40th year and that he would live for another 40 years? In his book “Nishaan-e-Aasmaanee published in 1892, he says that 10 years of his ministry have elapsed which means that his minstry started in 1882, which means that he was born in 1842. Similarly he writes in “Kitab-ul-Bariyya” published in 1898 that his age was 34 or 35 when his father passed away (which was 1876 according to Ahmadiyya literature) which again means that he was born either in 1841 or 1842. However, when investigating the books of the PM and Ahmadiyya lieterature, it appears that there are several dates of his birth ranging from 1835 – 1841. However, the PM states also that God revealed to him that he would live to the age of 80 or close; or give or take 2/3 years; or 2 or 4 years more or less; or 5 or 6 more or less. These comments are from the following books of the PM:
1. Nisham-e-Aasmaanee
2. Tadhkirah
3. Tohfat-un-Nadwah
4. Tohfa-e-Goldrawiyah
5. Mawaahib-ur-Rahmaan
6. Baraaheem-e-Ahmadiyya
In summary his age would be between 74 – 86
He died in 1908, if he was born in 1835 that would make his age 73 at death not 74 (80 – 6). The issue with this is that why are there so many discrepancies in the above books regarding his age and also would God be undecided at what age the PM was to pass away?
Please research and take your time
JK
From pleeezing One:
JK
you said
“Does the PM not make it clear in Roohani Khazain Vol 4, Page 355, 374 that he was commissioned in his 40th year and that he would live for another 40 years? In his book “Nishaan-e-Aasmaanee published in 1892, he says that 10 years of his ministry have elapsed which means that his minstry started in 1882, which means that he was born in 1842.”
Did mirza Ghulam Qadiani live for 40 years from 1882 or 30 years from 1892 ( 10 years were passed in 1892)?
Does this not make a false prophecy / Ilham?
From Zahid Aziz:
A revealed prophecy can be fulfilled in a different manner from how the person who makes the prophecy thinks it would be fulfilled. This is because he interprets the prophecy with his fallible human knowledge, while only God has perfect knowledge. There are many instances of this in the lives of prophets, including the Holy Prophet Muhammad, where their interpretation of how a prophecy would be fulfilled turned out to be wrong.
In this case, Hazrat Mirza sahib is quoting the prophecy of a Muslim saint that the coming Mahdi’s mission would last for forty years, and applying it to himself. So, for a start, it is not his prophecy. But in Barahin Ahmadiyya HMGA had recorded how he had been presenting arguments about the truth of Islam, as well as his own revelations, to Hindus and Christians since the middle of the 1860s decade, and gave several examples of it. (In 1868 or 1869 he was asked by someone to check some of the “Wahabi” beliefs being expressed by Maulvi Muhammad Husain Batalvi and debate with him if he found them to be wrong. As it happened, he did not find anything wrong with the Maulvi’s beliefs.) Therefore, the start of his mission could be dated from the mid-1860s, and from then till 1908 is a period of forty years.
According to Sahih Bukhari, the Holy Prophet’s prophecy about which one of his wives would be the first to die after him was applied to the wrong wife beforehand (Saudah). The true identity of which wife was to die first was only discovered when that wife (Zainab) actually died!
As to ambiguities in prophecies about lengths of time in which certain events would occur, the Quran prophesied that the Romans, after their defeat by the Persians, would be victorious over the Persians “in a few years” (30:4). The word “few” is then interpreted to mean between 3 and 10 years. Why didn’t Allah reveal the actual number of years?
Zahid Aziz
From pleeezing One:
Zahid Sahab
Quote:
In this case, Hazrat Mirza sahib is quoting the prophecy of a Muslim saint that the coming Mahdi’s mission would last for forty years, and applying it to himself. So, for a start, it is not his prophecy
Unquote:
I am sorry to say that you ae being unfair when you say its not his prophecy. I had seen this ilham before which I post here:
Please bear in mind that Mirza sahab got the Ilham in 1892.
Ref. RK 4 Nishan-e-Aasmani page 14 pdf
The translation
“From the day Imam reveals himself by virtue of Ilham, will live for 40 years. Let it be clear that this humble self is appointed by special ILHAM to invite for truth in the 40th year of age and good news was given that I will get to an age of 80 or near it. So 40 years of preaching is proven by this ILHAM, out of which 10 years have passed”
It proves two things:
1- In 1892, Mirza sb was 50 years of age (he starts preaching at 40 and 10 years have passed since then).
He died in 1908 , that makes him 66 years old.
2- In 1892, he had done 10 years of preaching and another 30 remaining according to ILHAM, which says”(So 40 years of preaching is proven by this ILHAM, out of which 10 years have passed”)
but from 1892 till 1908 its only 16 years, its not even NEAR 30 years.
Please don’t try to prove mirza sb right by implying that Allah talla was ( god save me from shaitan and pardon me) wrong, Mirza sb was a human being who could make mistakes which he did without a doubt. Please leave nabi pbuh and Allah tala out of it. You rae a sioncere and blind follower of mirza sb, good for you.
From Zahid Aziz:
In response to your last para, I may in your opinion be “blind” but your two eyes have not served much purpose! What you have written in your last para is exactly what I wrote in my opening para. I wrote: “with his fallible human knowledge while only God has perfect knowledge.” That means Allah is always right while the recipient of the prophecy can be wrong! What you are telling me, I actually said it to you.
Again both your eyes have misled you about the first prophecy. The words you quote as “From the day Imam reveals himself by virtue of Ilham, will live for 40 years” are a part of the poem by Nimatullah Wali that HMGA is quoting. Please flick back 5 pages in Nishan-i Asmani to page 9 and read pages 9 to 11 to find out who and what he is quoting.
Regarding your point 1, you and I agree that HMGA’s human knowledge could be wrong. He was wrong in considering himself 50 years of age in 1892.
Regarding your point 2, it can again be a matter of judgment which year is considered as when he started his mission through Divine revelation. In the same Barahin Ahmadiyya that he refers to in this passage he gives examples to show that he has been relating his prophecies to the opponents of Islam since about 1865 to prove the truth of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. From then till 1908 is more than 40 years.
From pleeezing One:
Zahid sb.,
Your frusteration shows that it is impossible to defend mirza sb. Why you guys have to prove mirza sb a liar at one place to make him truthful at the other occesions? He clearly prophecised and you said no, its not his prophecy??? “Let it be clear that this humble self is appointed by special ILHAM ”
You are saying that mirza made a mistake when he quoted he was 50 in 1892, ok lets us agree, what about second part of prophecy where he prophecised to preach for another 40 years??? (of which 10 years were passed in 1892)
Then you pointed out Braheen ahmaduiyya according to which mirza sb has been prophecising since 1865…. Another contradcition and another proof you provided that Mirtza sahanb cannot be devine because these contain unjustifiable contradiction even by a sincere follower like you with two eyes.
Good luck with your “great” work.
From Zahid Aziz:
Please confirm that you read the pages that I referred you to, and you do not find from there that Hazrat Mirza sahib is quoting prophecies made by someone before him. Please confirm that you have read in the book that the Persian verses of poetry quoted are written by Hazrat Mirza sahib.
Another simple question is: Does or does not Hazrat Mirza sahib say that many decades ago people tried to apply the same prophecies to Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi (who died in 1831)? Please explain how it can be a prophecy of Hazrat Mirza sahib if other people published it before and applied it to someone else?
From pleeezing One:
Zahid Sb
I thought Lahore jamaat was different from qadianis and is more receptive of truth, but your continous deviations proving me wrong.
I can confirm that I have seen and read with my own eys the quote what mirza sahab wrote. Anyone who has ability to read URDU and an iota of honesty, will have no problem in seeing that mirza sahab proudly applying the prophecy to himself and not only that he boasts that he will preach for another 40 years out of that 10 years have passed. ( He died in 1908, nowhere close to 30 years from the prophecy which was announced in 1892)
My dear Zahid sb, why are you again and again trying to prove that mirza sahab was wrong and the prophecy is for someone else??
Why you keep ignoring the second part of prophecy?? Do you think by ignoring the fact you can change it??
Can you read URDU? If yes, read Arya dharam by mirza sahab and tell me if a gentleman can write something like that???
If you keep ignoring and avoiding truth (though, deep down you know it) you can only cheat yourself….
Think outside the box, Islam has nothing to do with mirza sahab, he only devise new religion with new set of rules using Islam…
From Zahid Aziz:
Even now you don’t seem to be admitting that Hazrat Mirza sahib has quoted someone else and only applied that other person’s prophecy to himself. So what do you think of the person who made the prophecy? Doesn’t the question arise whether he was truthful or a liar? And what about people before Hazrat Mirza sahib trying to apply the same to Sayyid Ahmad Barelvi? Were they right?
I have explained earlier that there are numerous examples from the Holy Prophet’s life of how a prophecy is actually fulfilled but in a different manner from how it was thought it would be fulfilled. Read the prophecy in Bukhari about which wife of the Holy Prophet would be the first to die after him and who it was who actually died. In Muhsin Khan’s translation of Bukhari available online it is at Volume 2, Book 24, Number 501.
Please do tell me which place in the book Arya Dharm you are referring to and I will reply. Please also tell us which objections against Islam Hazrat Mirza sahib is answering in this book Arya Dharam and what is your reply to those objections against Islam?
From Regis:
Salaam Alaykum,
I notice that Lahoris also believe that Hazrat Mirza was born in 1835.
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/bookspdf/f-ahm.pdf
Is this based on the account of Mufti Muhammad Sadiq found here: http://theartofmisinformation.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/age-of-the-imam-mahdi-as/
Is there any other info about this? For example the second link above quotes Maulvi Husain Batalvi as stating that the Promised Messiah was 63 in 1893, and that Batalvi should know as they were childhood friends (making the year of birth 1830CE/1246AH)
I'm curious to find out why both Ahmadi groups agree on 1835. Is 1830 not credible?
Or could it be that he was born in 1839-1840?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=xW9dBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38#v=onepage&q&f=false
The Jews were anticipating a Messiah in 1839-1840
Wasalaam.
From ikram:
What Regis points out about the Jews awaiting the advent of Messiah is also the basis of Seventh Day Adventist Church (link).
From Zahid Aziz:
wa alaikum as-salaam Regis. Please see the discussion on this in his biography Mujaddid-i Azam. At this link I have placed pages 24, 27 of the English translation (note: pages 25 and 26 are photographs so I have omitted them here.)
From Regis:
Salaam alaykum
Dr. Aziz, thanks for the information. I guess 1835 is going to have to be the date unless proven otherwise.
Ikram, I think the 1839-1840 prediction is slightly different to the Adventist one.
The 1839-1840 prediction is based on the Talmud and Zohar (of Kabbalists/Jewish mystics). It was widely anticipated 'throughout the Jewish world: Persia and Kurdistan, Morocco, the Land of Israel, Eastern Europe (Hasidic and non-Hasidic alike), and Western Europe'
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195305787.001.0001/acprof-9780195305784-chapter-2
Wasalaam,