Email to Edward Martin author of ‘King of Travelers’ and maker of movie ‘Jesus in India’
The following has been submitted by our friend Rashid Jahangiri.
January 9, 2009
Dear Mr. Edward Martin:
I came to know of your movie ‘Jesus in India’ through the Tomb Of Jesus website. As soon I came to know its availability on DVD, I ordered it. I received it today and I watched it today. Thank you for making this movie.
In the bonus materials on the DVD you have your interview on ‘The Cutting Edge’ TV show, from where I got your email address. In your interview you mentioned two books ‘Jesus in India’ by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and ‘Christ in Kashmir’ by Aziz Kashmiri. I don’t know if you are aware or not, there is another classic book on this subject ‘Jesus in Heaven on Earth’ by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad. In this book there is anthropological research linking Pashtoons/ Afghans (Pathans), and Kashmirs to the Jews of Canaan, thus giving another evidence and possible justification of Jesus journey to Kashmir i.e. to preach to the lost Israelites tribes.
Khwaja Nazir Ahmad was a member of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) and son of the prominent companion of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, Khwaja Kamal ud Din. In LAM literature I have read that professors in universities of Germany and France considered nominating this book for Nobel Prize. (Links to this book are provided at the end of this email).
My father, before he joined LAM, started working as assistant to Khwaja Kamal ud Din, at age 16. Thus he came to know Khwaja Nazir Ahmad. According to my father, Khwaja Nazir Ahmad used to get angry if he did not agree at idea. When professors of European universities asked him to take out chapters on Islam from his book so that it can be nominated for Nobel Prize, he refused. His emotional response stopped his book from reaching the world fame that it could have otherwise.
I met Aziz Kashmiri as a young boy when he visited LAM mosque in Rawalpindi (near Islamabad), Pakistan in the 1970s. He visited Pakistan after the first publication of his book and tour of Europe. I remember him saying that the Indian government in an official document thanked him for promoting the subject in Europe and increasing tourism in Kashmir, as many Europeans visited that part.
Allah says in Holy Quran: “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, (and a model of virtue), and We gave them both refuge upon a worth-living lofty plateau abounding in (green and fruitful) valleys and springs of running water” (Chapter 23, Verse 50). People who had visited Kashmir 70 years ago, before the current pollution, commercialism, and population explosion say Kashmir was heaven on earth.
Click links to read on line:
Jesus in Heaven on Earth by Khwaja Nazir Ahmad:
www.ahmadiyya.org/bookspdf/jihoe/conts.htm
and
www.aaiil.org/text/books/others/khwajanazirahmad/jesusinheavenonearth/jesusinheavenonearth.shtml
Once again thank you for making this movie. I hope David, in your person, can defeat Goliath of close mindedness, irrationality and ignorance of 2000 years.
Yours truly,
Rashid Jahangiri
From Bashir:
I will skim this book tonight, but before i do, let me present my thoughts.
Once again I am an independent researcher/thinker. I’m not sold on the tomb of Jesus in India. I could write for hours and hours on this topic. It’s very easy for me.
College taught me to how to think properly, college taught me research methodology. College taught me neutrality in research.
ARGUMENTS
1. Allah knew all along of the whereabouts of Jesus after his escape from the cross. If Jesus was in fact buried anywhere on the planet earth, why not lead Muhammad to the grave. Why not reveal this to Muhammad. What about a hint…..
1.a. The Quran left Jesus’ death as vague. Do I even have to present the verse???
2. HMGA never got any type of revelation that led him to Kashmir. Ijtihad didnt matter. This is purely the academic research of HMGA, as is Jihad. God never gave any revelation to HMGA in terms of prohibiting Jihad. Do you doubt me? Check Tadhkira…
3. HMGA initially wrote two other grave sites, I think they were both east of the Tigris river, I cant remember off hand.
4. Noorudin claimed that he had lived in Kashmir many years, he never knew of any grave.
From Bashir:
I wish that ahmadis would study the SILK ROAD. The research below shows that Jesus could have escaped along the silk road.
But, The Koran didnt specify.
Extending over 8,000 km (5,000 miles), the routes enabled people to transport trade goods, especially luxuries such as silk, satins, musk, rubies, diamonds, pearls, and rhubarb, while simultaneously serving as a conduit for the spread of knowledge, ideas, cultures, and diseases between different parts of the world in China, India, Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. Trade on the Silk Road was a significant factor in the development of the great civilizations of China, India, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and Rome, and in several respects helped lay the foundations for the modern world.
Wood, Francis (2002). The Silk Road: Two Thousand Years in the Heart of Asia. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press. pp. 9, 13–23. ISBN 978-0-520-24340-8.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
From Zahid Aziz:
I comment on Bashir’s points as follows.
1. The hint about Jesus’s place of death is given as follows: “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.” (23:50)
1a. Jesus’s death is proved more strongly in the Quran than perhaps the death of any other prophet. It is mentioned specifically, directly and clearly.
2. Yes, it is research by Hazrat Mirza sahib from human sources of knowledge.
Hazrat Mirza sahib has not, and could not have, “prohibited” any fomr of Jihad that had been taught by Islam. The Qadianis would also agree with this since they regard him as entirely bound by the teachings of Islam. What he said was: (1) what the common Muslim considers as jihad is actually contrary to Islamic teachings, (2) the jihad by fighting allowed by Islam is conditional, and the required conditions are not present.
3. Yes, earlier he mentioned other sites that had come to his notice, but obviously the Srinagar site provided much greater evidence.
4. I believe that Maulana Nur-ud-Din was more in Jammu than Kashmir.
From T. Ijaz:
One thing a little odd about the book ‘Jesus in Heaven on Earth’ is how the Promised Messiah is relegated to a mere footnote, and that reference has nothing to do with the main topic of the book.
From Zahid Aziz:
What about my statement on page 5 in the Publisher’s Note of the USA edition, published 1998, paragraph 7, that it was Hazrat Mirza sahib who first drew the world’s attention to Jesus’ journey to Kashmir?
Then look at the Appendix 1 to this edition, compiled by my able friend Mr Nasir Ahmad, as mentioned by me in the above lines. It begins with the words “Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad …” and describes all the work he did in this connection. Moreover, it lists the writings of members of the Qadiani Jamaat as well. This Appendix was included in an earlier edition of this book published in 1988 from Bombay, India, at the beginning of the book.
Has it occurred to you that Khwaja Nazir Ahmad is trying to prove that Jesus’ life in Kashmir can be established from independent sources, without it being used as a way of proving the Promised Messiah’s claims? It may be that I had this point in mind when, in the Publisher’s Note mentioned above, I wrote:
“Jesus in Heaven on Earth documents the results of rigorous, academic research by the author meeting modern critical standards, and presents evidence which may be scrutinized by objective enquiry.”
(However, I can’t now remember whether this is why I wrote these words.)
Ahmadis have, for example, sometimes written about the issue of the death of Jesus purely from the Quran, Hadith and other Islamic sources, proving that it is established from those authorities, without mentioning the work of the Promised Messiah.
From Zahid Aziz:
Here is a story about Jesus in Heaven on Earth. Almost 20 years ago, in February/March 1989 the Salman Rushdie The Satanic Verses controversy was raging, especially in the U.K. A British journalist, Stephen Pile, wrote an article in The Sunday Times of London on 5 March of that year the gist of which was as follows.
He wrote that a Christian churchman friend of his had informed him that while Muslims are complaining about Rushdie’s book, there is a book by a Muslim which is equally offensive to Christians, and this was a book called Jesus in Heaven on Earth. It was so offensive that Muslims must never republish it. Stephen Pile then describes his attempts to find the publishers of the book in order to question them. He went first to the Woking Mosque, since the book was published by the Woking Muslim Mission. Here he was told that the publishers used to operate from the mosque till the mid-1960s. The Imam and officials of the Mosque to whom Pile spoke denounced the book and its publishers as heretics and not Muslims. Then Pile went to the Central London Mosque to try to trace the publisher. Someone there also denounced the book and called the publishers as heretics. So now Pile was rather puzzled. He writes that whichever Muslim organisation he visits, the one thing they have in common is that they condemn this book and its publishers!
Finally, he writes that someone directed him to the Mosque in Putney, South-West London, and there he met Mirza Tahir Ahmad sahib. The Mirza sahib, according to Pile, told him that it was written by someone from a “breakaway group” from his movement, although he regarded the book’s thesis as correct.
Pile wrote that he never found the publishers.
Within 2 days of reading this article, I wrote to a letter to the Editor of the newspaper, a copy of which is in front of me now. I wrote that Pile’s search is now over. We represent the publisher and he can contact us and obtain the book and discuss it with us. As he had quoted a whole spectrum of other people’s hostile views against the book and its publishers, he should now conduct an interview with us and report it.
Nothing resulted from my letter, not even a reply. So on 26th April I wrote a more detailed letter accusing the newspaper of unfairness. I referred them to recent works of Western, non-Muslim writers who had also written that Jesus did not die on the cross and is buried in Kashmir.
In fact I also referred them to their own newspaper of some years before (24 January 1965), in which an article was published, written by a Dr J.G. Bourne, senior anaethetist at St Thomas’ Hospital, London, stating that “there is reason to think that Jesus in fact fainted on the cross, was believed dead, and recovered after a period of time”.
I asked, if our book is offensive to Christians and should not be republished, what about your own newspaper’s article? Are you going to apologise to Christians for your article and denounce Dr Bourne for his medical opinion?
Incidentally, the same Dr Bourne later stated in evidence in a High Court case in London that Jesus only fainted on the cross and then recovered (The Guardian, 27 October 1972).
I concluded my second letter as follows:
If your standard of journalism can justify printing articles which denounce people about whom you know absolutely nothing, except for what you gather from their critics, then this should be a matter of serious concern for you and your readers.
Needless to say, I received no reply from this distinguished British newspaper.
From Bashir:
ZA:
1. I was being sarcastic with the question about a hint. Personally I dont think the Quran was clear enough. Yes, 23:50 does refer to an end destination. But that matches over 10000 locations on the face of the earth. WHY NOT REVEAL TO MUHAMMAD THE GRAVE???? I would love to ask god that question. The christians say that the lord works in mysterious ways… I cant agree.
This is Quranic portion that I was refferring to;
[4:157] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
[4:158] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
God didnt explain as to what happened!! He left it open. God just told us that Jesus escaped, then was raised(rafa). Well everybody is raised after death only. I think there is a Quranic verse that explains this.
2. I dont want to change the topic to Jihad as of yet. I am still researching that, as you know. I am very confused in terms of Jihad.
2.a. JIhad and the grave of Jesus is related in terms non-revelation related ideas. GOD never informed HMGA about these topics. Maybe, there are un-published revelations… FYI, prophets are suppose to announce all revelations, the irony…
3. As far as searching other sites is concerned:
(1891)”This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again….. verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in Al-Khaleeli. After this death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days.” (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354)
then he wrote:
(1894) “This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough the grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria and for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake.” (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894)
^ these are taken from anti-ahmadiyya sources, I have never seen originals. Nor have I ever seen this text translated by the AAIIL or the AMI.
4. I was wrong about what Noorudin said, this was what I read some time back:
He was very much interested in it. F. Bernier (1625—1688), the French doctor who accompanied Aurangzeb to Kashmir, had written that there was a tomb near the old city of Sirinagar which was known as the tomb of Moses. But Maulawi Nur-ud-Din, who had lived in Kashmir for 14 years, told Ahmad that there was no such tomb in Kashmir, but that there existed in Sirinagar the tomb of a Prophet who was known as Yuz Asaf. Local investigation brought to light further facts. The name of the Prophet was confirmed as Yuz Asaf (apparently a corruption of Jesus).
688/919
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Ahmad-20080411MN.pdf
From Rashid:
Today Israeli government is able to pursue her polices in occupied territories only because she has support of the most powerful Christian country in the world i.e. USA. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib mission was to correct the beliefs of Christian world. Unfortunately Muslim opponents and Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 2 undermined his mission. Imagine if this undermining had not taken place in last 100 years… today world would be peaceful and different place… but then hadith of Dajjal throwing fireballs on Muslims had to be fulfilled…
From Bashir:
I disagree with the accusations of HMBMA against M. Ali and K. Kamaluddin. Here is just one point.
“And who is better in speech than one who calls people to Allah and does good, and says: I am surely of those who submit??—Holy Koran Chapter 41:32
Please note, a muslim’s first job in tabligh is to invite men to ALLAH. His second task would be to invite men to Rasul-ul-allah.
Tertiary tasks include HMGA, etc etc etc.
From Bashir:
ZA, you wrote,
1. The hint about Jesus’s place of death is given as follows: “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.” (23:50)
I read the verse and the context. This is a vague statement. This in no way implies the area where the graves are. This could mean anything. Allah should have told us that jesus and mary escaped to an area with springs and meadows. And the verse is out of context, it doesnt even match the other verses.
Again this verse is open to interpretation. This could mean that after the birth of Jesus god helped them, in other words it could mean anything.
From Bashir:
I appear to have a strange tidbit regarding the book by Kwaja Nazir Ahmad(KNA). Very odd I must say!!!!!
KNA agrees with Nicholas Notovitch in that Jesus visited India before the alleged crucifiction. I find this as strange. I dont think that HMGA ever wrote to this effect.
The aaiil does not have the book Jesus in India by HMGA, at least not in english. I found it on alislam.org. In the preface it is written:
“A Russian traveller named Nicolas Notovitch stayed for quite some time with Lamas in Tibet and had their sacred books translated for him. He is of the opinion that Jesus must have come to Tibet before the crucifixion and gone back to Palestine after having imbibed Buddhistic teachings. This also is a mere statement unsupported by reliable historical evidence.
Repudiating both these views, Hazrat Ahmad writes that Jesus came to India not before the event of the Cross but after it and that it was not he who borrowed Buddhistic teachings but the followers of Buddha who seem to have reproduced the entire picture of the Gospels in their books. ”
From Zahid Aziz:
The context of 23:50 is how Allah saved prophets from their rejectors. It mentions Noah being saved from his enemies in the ark (23:23-29), then messengers in general (23:33-44), and then Moses (23:45-48).
Jesus being saved from being killed by journeying from his home country is on a par with Moses and the Israelites being thus rescued by going to another land, and also on a par with the Holy Prophet escaping from his killers to Madina.
Also the fact that it says “son of Mary and his mother”, as opposed to “Mary and her son”, indicates that Jesus as an adult is meant, accompanied by his mother.
From Bashir:
ZA: I have read the chapter. I must say the Quran is very vague. Quranic expression leaves much to the imagination. I cant understand why the Quran is so vague. I had assumed that it was an extremely detailed manuscript. What was I thinking…
M. ali writes. Verse 33-50
Section 2&3. Noah and the prophets after him.
33-41 Opponents destroyed
42-44 Other generations follow their fate
45-49 Moses and Pharoah
50 A refuge given to Jesus and his mother
And yes, M. ali wrote the exact same explanation that you speak of. I’m sure that the AMI also agree on this interpretation.
The impression that I get is that these are historical accounts of prophets and their success through adversity. At this point in time Muhammad’s life was in danger, Islam was in danger. This chapter relieved the hearts and minds of the muslims. This chapter explained to the muslims that these trials were normal, it asked muslims not to worry….by giving the account of Jesus it showed muslims that even the Jews/Romans tried to murder a prophet, but god intervened and allowed Jesus and his mother to escape….Now, Muhammad would also escape.
My questions are:
1. What did Tabari write in terms of this verse.
2. What did HMGA think of this verse pre-1891.
3. What did Noorudin think of this verse pre-1891.
The above verse was the last chapter revealed at mecca.
A few years later ALLAH revealed this:
[4:157] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
[4:158] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
So when did this exaltation take place? I think Jesus escaped, he was allowed to hide somewhere that allowed him relief and allowed him to recover. Then ALLAH raised him. This exaltation must have occurred a few months after the escape. FYI: there is no report from the Jews or the romans that shows that Jesus was chased during this escape. This escape was relatively an easy one.
If jesus travelled to India shortly after the attempted crucifiction, it must have taken him 1 year to reach India, maybe more….
From Bashir:
ourbeacon.com defines this verse(23:50) as:
“And We made the son of Mary and his mother a symbol (of Our Grace). And, We gave them abode on a hilly ground, affording rest and security and fresh water springs (as they migrated from Can’aan after the attempted crucifixion). ”
MAUDOODI WROTE:
http://www.tafheem.net/main800.html
(23:50) And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign *43 to mankind and We gave them shelter on a plateau where they could have peace, and which was watered by running springs *44 .
*44 Different people have mentioned different places, like Damascus, Ar-Ramlah, Jerusalem and Egypt, in regard to the plateau where Allah gave them shelter. From the Christian traditions it appears that Mary had to leave her home twice after the birth of Prophet Jesus, first in the time of Herod when she took him to Egypt and stayed there till Herod’s death, and then in the time of Arichelaus when she took him to Nazareth in Galilee. (Matthew, 2: 13-23). Therefore it cannot be said with certainty to which of these two emigrations the Qur’an refers here. It is, however, obvious that the place of shelter was a plateau which provided them with all the necessities of life.
From Bashir:
FYI: all muslims believe that Jesus escaped the crucifiction. Then was raised (RAFFA). These are the facts of the story.
The question is when was he raised? Was he raised immediately after the escape, or was he raised 80+ years later.
Allah didnt specify. This is a huge gray area. I will investigate this further. Bukhari never heard anything to the effect that jesus lived up until the age of 120.
From Zahid Aziz:
It is true that all Muslims believe that Jesus underwent raf`a by Allah, i.e. was “raised”, but the absolutely crucial point is that this was generally considered by Muslims to be a raising of the material body physically to the presence of God, and this was the wrong view that Hazrat Mirza sahib corrected on the basis of the Quran.
The controversy is whether this raf`a was a physical lifting of the body to God or an exaltation and honouring. How much later it happened after escape from death on the cross is an entirely immaterial point to the basic discussion that Hazrat Mirza sahib was having with the Muslims at large.
A raising of rank, using the word raf`a, is mentioned in the Quran as follows:
“Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, to high ranks.” (58:11)
From Bashir:
The early muslims were forced to try to explain the difficulty of these passages. They came up with idea that Jesus must have been taken physically to heavan(RAFFA). This must have happened shortly after his escape. I think I read somewhere in the Quran that a man can only be RAFFA after death.
There is not a single hadith that explained this anomoly to the early muslims. They had to come up with there own idea.
Tabari’s commentary is the oldest commentary on the Quran(between 915-923). This was written almost 300 years after the demise of the HP. The first 300 years of Islam is BLANK. There is nothing. Maybe it was lost, I dont know. The only thing that I found pre-Tabari and Ibn Hisham is the origin of algebra, which was 820.
Has anybody ever thought to check Tabari’s Quran?
I dont think that HMGA ever reffered to Tabari. I could be wrong.