Interview with ex-Qadiani on Iqra TV
Submitted by Rashid Jahangiri.
A former Qadiani Shahid Kamal Ahmad, appeared as guest on IQRA TV, UK.
I would leave it to readers to watch and enjoy. There is much in this 1 hour 20 minutes show. I wrote a quick comment that I posted on Shahid Kamal Ahmad website that also hosts video of his interview:
http://thecult.info/blog/2009/11/04/shahid-kamal-on-good-morning-with-iqra/#comments
Shahid Kamal Ahmad:
You obviously chickened out when you got a hint that some one may get invited to refute your lies. You started giving your explanations and asserting that you are NOT here for debate.
Few points:
1-You purposely lied and hid the fact that many books and their translations of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (HMGA) sahib, are available online at official websites of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) Head Quarters (www.aaiil.org) and its branch websites (e.g.: www.ahmadiyya.org ; www.muslim.org). Instead of this you are basing your lies on websites of opponents of HMGA.
2- To support your lies against HMGA you took help of books not written by HMGA such as ‘Kalmatul-Fasal’ and ‘Tazkira (Tadkirah)’. And it seems fair to you to use such logic. If this is the case then you should accept claims of Jesus as WRITTEN IN CHRISTIAN GOSPELS by people who claim they are spreading words of Jesus. You should accept that (Nauzubilah) Jesus was “son of God”!
3- You repeatedly bunked, and tried to hoodwink ‘The issue of Jesus death’. You very cunningly figured if you openly and honestly state your belief regarding Death of Jesus, no matter how much you kiss-up to opponents of HMGA, you will be right away kicked out by the same HMGA opponents.
4- On issue of ‘Kalima-Shahada’ you did NOT tell us how you accepted Islam, by performing what ritual/ exercise? We know when a Christian, Jew or Hindu accepts Islam they only recite ‘Kalima-Shahada’.
5- It is clear you have no idea of Sufia (Mystics) terminology and what revered Sufia in Islam have written. And then you have audacity to question HMGA writings addressed to Sufia using Sufi terminology.
6- In your support of use of violence against Qadianis you gave JUSTIFICATION by referring to Jews who commit violence against Muslims. By this you are fulfilling the picture of ‘Ulama-e-Sue’ as portrayed by Rasul Allah SAWS. Briefly: Muslims will follow Jews in wrongdoing.
THANKS for at least telling the PARTIAL TRUTH that HMGA was NOT agent of British Rulers.
Shahid: In the end I must say, you are cunning enough to use Qadiani doctrine to attack HMGA.
Here is challenge for you and your host on Iqra TV:
Can you people invite Dr. Zahid Aziz, member of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM), based in UK? He is creator and Webmaster of LAM—UK branch website.
I make a prediction: You people will never make this mistake.
From Rashid:
Accusations made by Shahid Kamal Ahmad in Iqra TV program.
It will be nice if Dr. Zahid Aziz or someone else can provide link to LAM articles on its different websites where answers to Shahid Kamal Ahmad accusations could be read.
In the meanwhile, we can look into Shahid’s accusations on this blog.
Shahid accuses PM-HMGA for “cursing” 1000 times in his book in Arabic language. I will be thankful if Dr. Zahid Aziz or someone else can tell us context of these “1000 curses”.
From Zahid Aziz:
All such accusations have been made for decades and replied to for decades. But they continue repeating them. And so it will go on. An allegation was even made that Mirza used an English style toilet (a commode) or that he bought a clock to tell the time!
We need to make them discuss the basic and fundamental issues. The most important is their charge that Hazrat Mirza sahib is not a Muslim. This must be discussed first. The allegations that some of his prophecies didn’t come true or that he used strong language about the Ulama or that he was a British agent, for example, are not relevant in determining if in Islamic law he was a Muslim. (Many people regarded as Muslims by our opponents were British agents!)
If our opponents are sincere in their differences with us, they should at least acknowledge that : “Mirza sahib was a Muslim but we think that he said and did many wrong things”. If so, then our opponents should try to get the law in Pakistan about Ahmadis repealed, and they should condemn all those who call Ahmadis as kafir!
After this we can discuss that, whatever he may have been, did he render any service at all to Islam? After all, even people with great faults have served Islam in the past and present.
But our opponents avoid these basic questions because they want to throw the maximum number of allegations around to create a bad image of him. If they had any shame, they would realise that the detracters of Islam use exactly the same techniques against the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
From Rashid:
Are Indian Ulama reading a page from HMGA book?
From AlJazeera English website:
Indian Muslims denounce terrorism
Some of the most influential Muslim scholars in India have passed a resolution condemning all forms of violence in the name of Islam.
The Deoband is an influential Islamic school inspiring tens of thousands of religious study centres across the world, which some say has even inspired the Taliban’s ideology in Afghanistan.
Prerna Suri reports on the weight of the school’s declaration.
Link: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/11/2009113171026427902.html
On the other hand prominent Mullah leaders in Pakistan talk about Jihad against USSR and now against USA & UK in Afghanistan, while sitting in a Muslim country. They very conveniently forgot that none of their elders took to militant Jihad against British Raj, but still accuse HMGA of abrogating Jihad.
Link: http://www.awaz.tv/playvideo.asp?pageId=6143
From Tariq:
Well, he has learnt that the correct word is Da’wa and perhaps not Tabligh and that you should say Allah Subhana-wa-Ta’ala rather than just Allah or Allah ta’ala.
From Bashir:
I think that ahmadis(q &L) should be willing to go on IQRA present their point of view.
Ahmadis should look at this event as a major breakthrough in muslim relations. I think the ahmadis should not be offended by any of the remarks therin. I think that ahmadis should search for answers to the questions about HMGA as stated by Shahid. I think that ahmadi leaders should find time to show on IQRA and take questions from all callers.
The date of birth of HMGA is still a thing that bothers me quite a bit. I dont think that I will ever find closure on this topic.
FYI: in 1857 HMGA didnt have facial hair. I am from the punjab, most punjabi men get facial hair at about 13 years of age. There is no way that HMGA could have 22 in 1857, he had to be at least 10 years younger.
From Zahid Aziz:
We are prepared to appear in any forum at any time. Read my letter published in the last issue of The Light to the UK representative of PTV Global channel:
“I hope you will provide me with an opportunity to appear on your channel and present the true history of the work of the Woking Muslim Mission during the fifty year period that the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement managed it.”
I received nothing more than an acknowledgement.
When I, a Punjabi, was 19 to 20 years of age I only needed to shave once every two days. The shaving of course increased the growth of the hair. Had I not shaved, the facial hair would probably have been quite light for another couple of years. Also, Hazrat Mirza sahib was not ethnically a Punjabi.
I never imagined when I created this blog that I would be mentioning this.
From Usman:
@Rashid
A few days ago the leader of the Jamaat e Islami Pakistan was on TV giving an interview. The anchor person pointedly asked him to denounce the terror attacks in Islamabad so he can clear the perception that the Mullahs in Paksitan support terrorists. He refused to do so…giving vague answers.
From Dr. MAS:
Dear Brother Bashir,
AA,
Please don’t use facial hair as a criteria. I am an Endocrinologist (specialise in the science of hormones), and research is bearing out that adolescence is coming sooner now than some years back. Some feel it is the media exposure. Girls are getting their periods at an earlier stage, and boys are going through puberty younger. We also know about delayed puberty, which is a perfectly normal physiological situation for some individuals and may be a familial trait. I come across this in clinics very often.
Hope this helps in your analysis.
From Bashir:
Thank you Dr. MAS. I appreciate your insight. Please remember that HMGA wrote that he was born in 1839 or 1840. In 1892 HMGA claimed to be 50 years old. HMGA should have died roughly 1919–1922.
There is a lengthy hadith that HMGA was referring to when prophecying that he would live another 40 years from 1882. Jesus was supposed to return to this planet and live for 40 years.
My first encounter with ZA revolved around this question. ZA even wrote about this in this very blog.
I thought that ZA had made an error when translating Kitab ul barriyya(KB). I had always thought that HMGA was born in 1835. When I read KB I was confused. I accused ZA of making an error. Long story short, ZA set me straight.
I think that ZA should go on IQRA and tell the world about ahmadiyyat. I even think that Khalifa 5th should take this oppurtunity to do the same.
Me and ZA have discussed many many topics in terms of ahmadiyyat. I have probably asked ZA more questions than any other “internet researcher” in the last 4 years.
I have confessed to his scholarship. I have asked him to build a research team around himself that could help him translate more books and answer more questions….
From Zahid Aziz:
In an earlier discussion I wrote:
In his obituary (of Hazrat Mirza sahib) which appeared upon his death in the Review of Religions in its issue for June 1908 it is written:
From T. Ijaz:
In one of his books he wrote that according to a revelation his age at death will be between 74 and 80 years. That’s why we Ahmadis have an interest in showing he was born in 1835 or so. Fortunately, that’s not hard to do when you look at his quotes, like at the time of the Dowie challenge and statements in regard to Abdullah Atham. The scholar and companion of Promised Messiah Mufti M. Sadiq got the date of birth based on day he was born (Friday) and the traditions that the month of Phagun had commenced in Punjab (local calendar) 1835 is the only year that worked.
By the solar accounting, he was in his 74th year, and by Islamic calendar he was around 76.
From Bashir:
The matter of the DOB of HMGA is not in terms of solar years. That is not the issue. The messiah himself claimed that he was born in 1839-1840 and in 1857 he had not yet began to grow facial hair. He also wrote that he was 16 or 17 in 1857. In Kitab ul bariyya HMGA did not mention solar years.
HMGA was a very intelligent man. I feel as if all ahmadis are claiming that his memory was troubling. I cant agree with that!
Why did Mufti Muhammad Sadiq feel the need to adjust the DOB of HMGA? I would love to see that research this wonderful man did. His scholarship is very much in doubt…
From Bashir:
For ZA: The reference that you presented poses a problem or two.
Did the revelation of HMGA start in 1868? It appears to me that the editor of ROR wrote something which was against fact.
From Zahid Aziz:
Just before the point where the above extract which I quoted occurs, the obituary says:
“In the year 1868, so we are told in the Barahin-i-Ahmadiyya, his first and most important work, the word of God came to him revealing the great blessings that were in store for him.”
It was common for people to not know the year of their birth. No one knows for certain when Maulana Muhammad Ali was born. It could have been 1874 to 1876.
Mirza Sultan Ahmad, eldest son of Hazrat Mirza sahib, always maintained that Hazrat Mirza sahib was born in 1836/1837. He held this view even when he was a non-Ahmadi.
There is a remarkable similarity with the year of the birth of Jesus. It is now held by researchers that Jesus was born most probably between 6 to 4 years before the year (1 A.D.) that he was originally thought to have been born in. Hazrat Mirza sahib was thought to have been born in 1839/1840, but research showed that he was born about 4 to 5 years before this.
From Bashir:
Can I double check the research as done by Mufti Muhammad Sadiq? Has someone already done that?
Has this research been cross-examined?
Jesus never told us that he had no facial hair in this year or that year.
HMGA got his commission from allah in 1882, HMGA even eluded to this point in Nishan Asmani which was written in 1892. HMGA should have lived until 1922, IMHO.
From Zahid Aziz:
Even without knowing Mufti sahib’s research, I can say that Bashir will be able to prove it wrong. That goes without saying.
You could say that Jesus started his preaching when he was a baby only a few days old, because that is what you will find in the tafsirs, but Hazrat Mirza sahib didn’t do this, so this is a lack of similarity.
In his Will in December 1905, he wrote plainly that God has informed him that his death is imminent and that he has been shaken by the revelations he has received about this, so shaken that he announces it to the whole world and writes his will. No one, follower or opponent, said to him that you are supposed to live till 1922.
From Bashir:
ZA: The point are as follows:
1. HMGA claimed that he would live for 40 years after the divine appointment. He was referring to the hadith in which Jesus after he did his NUZUL, was supposed to live for 40 years. This is why HMGA wrote that he would live for until 80 or so.
2. He never mentioned solar years, at ALL. This never happened!
3. I suspect foul play in the research of Mufti sahib, the problem is, I dont know where this research is. This research has almost been hidden from plain view.
4. Our Imam wrote specifically that he was born in 1839/1840. He also wrote specifically that in 1857 during the famous mutiny, which I am sure that he remembered vividly, that he had NO FACIAL HAIR, he also wrote that he 16 or 17 when this event happened.
5. I am a critical thinker, I am sorry if the offends anyone. I am not programmed to believe this or that. I believe through research!
From Zahid Aziz:
1. In the reference to Nishan Asmani he is quoting a poem of a saint, and he refers to the following verse: “Extending up to forty years, I see his ministry”. It is then his own conclusion that this forty years is from the time of commissioning as Mujaddid. He follows this by saying: And Allah knows best (RK, v. 4, p. 364).
His own conclusion can be wrong, as he himself indicates by saying “And Allah knows best”. In fact, the forty years of work can easily be seen to be from around 1868 to 1908. In Barahin Ahmadiyya he has mentioned again and again his revelations and work during the late 1860s.
The eighty years or thereabouts of age was later clarified as 5/6 years less or more than eighty. And he achieved exactly that.
4. How can someone write specifically 1839 or 1840? These very words show that he did not know the year. Apparently Mirza Sultan Ahmad, his eldest son, was born in 1856.
5. If you are a critical thinker, why is it that on so many occasions when you have been shown to be wrong, you simply ignore this fact and say nothing?
3. This comment doesn’t quite fit “critical thinking”, that you “suspect” things before reading them, and claim that because you haven’t seen something therefore it is hidden deliberately.
When he published his Will in Dec 1905, why did he say that his revelations tell him that his death is imminent, so much so as to shake him badly? Why didn’t he think that he had 15 more years to live?
Addendum: In Barahin Ahmadiyya, v. 5, written in 1905, published 1908, he answers the question: “What is your age at this time?”, as follows:
“The real age is known to God the Most High, but as far as I know, at this time, which is 1323 A.H., my age is around 70 years. And Allah knows best.” (Ruhani Khaza’in, v. 21, p. 365)
1323 A.H. began around 8 March 1905.
From Bashir:
1. To the best of my knowledge I have answered every question that has been posed at me. I cant remember not answering a question. Please check the record. If there is something that I havent answered, then please ask that question again, I will joyfully answer that.
2. Here is just one example of the hadith that I am sure HMGA was referring to when he claimed that he would live for 40 years after his commission.
Sunan Abu Daud:
Book 37, Number 4310:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.
3. I do not think the commission of HMGA started in 1868 as you have argued. This is onyl wishful thinking. His commission started in 1882.
3.b. And I dont think that the 80 or so years was later clarified. I think that HMGA made some very inconsistent statements. I think the split happened as a result of some of these inconsistent statements.
4. HMGA gave an estimate at 1839 or 1840, this was his estimate. This estimate was based on the FACT that he had no facial hair during the mutiny of 1857. This statement of HMGA is the most compelling and must be viewed as the biggest piece of evidence.
5. The entire AAIIL is of thinking that Mufti Muhamad Sadiq willfully concealed information during the split of 1914. This is the character refernce of the witness. How can I believe anything that he wrote. Furthermore, on the university level, all students are taught not to trust anyones research but there own. Especially someone who could have made a man into a prophet.
5.a. Similarily, I dont trust any data from the Bible. The Bible and Torah have been tampered with. I am not sure what is authentic from these books.
5.b. Similarily, I trust all the data in bukhari. ALL OF IT.
6. I cant solve the equation as to why he thought his death was imminent. I DONT KNOW WHAT HE WAS THINKING. Maybe he made the prophecy in 1892 and later felt that he errored in understanding it.
7. obviously, the statement in BA vol.5 contradicts an earlier statment. What can I say of these contradictions in the writings of HMGA? Doesnt the Koran make a clear statement about contradictions?
From Omar:
“1. To the best of my knowledge I have answered every question that has been posed at me. I cant remember not answering a question. Please check the record. If there is something that I havent answered, then please ask that question again, I will joyfully answer that.”
Who said anything about Bashir not answering questions posed at him?
From Bashir:
5. If you are a critical thinker, why is it that on so many occasions when you have been shown to be wrong, you simply ignore this fact and say nothing?
^when I have I ignored any facts and said nothing? If I have show me and will comment on those facts. I try to comment on everything.
From Zahid Aziz:
We don’t need to go over the past. If you wish I can give some examples after the weekend.