Another Express TV program on Qadianis and Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib
Submitted by Rashid Jahangiri.
Express News TV, Program: Point Blank, Host: Mubashir Lucman
Guests: Ulema from Majlis Tahafuz-e-Khatma-e-Nabuwat; Jamaat-e-Ulema-e-islam (Noorant group); Jamaat Ahle-Hadith.
Date: June 16, 2010
Host email address:
pb@expressnews.pk
lucman@wol.net.pk
Click on link to watch the program
If link does not work check it on www.awaztv.tv
After watching the TV program I sent following email to Mubashir Lucman sahib:
Dear brother Mubashir Lucman sahib:
Aslam Alikum,
Today I watched your TV show Point Blank aired on June 16, 2010 on the subject of Qadiani beliefs. I think it’s a great idea to hold public debate in your program, as you have put it very aptly “to do unlimited number of shows on this subject”.
I am member of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (aka Lahori-Ahmadis or Lahori-group). I am sure you must be aware that there are two factions of Ahmadis. In 1914 Ahmadiyya Jammat split and its members that moved to Lahore are called Lahori-Ahmadis, and those who remained in Qadian, India are called Qadiani-Ahmadis. Later Qadiani-Ahmadis moved to Rabwah (now Chenab Nagar), Pakistan. And since mid 1980s their Khalifa is residing in London. I don’t know if you‘re aware about the differences between these two factions. Anyways, there are very fundamental differences between the two factions.
Briefly, Lahori-Ahmadis hold beliefs:
1-All reciters of Kalima-Shahada are Muslims.
2- Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) is the LAST prophet/ messenger of Allah (SWT).
No new or old prophet can come after him.
3- Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of Qadian was only a Mujaddid (reformer) of 14th Islamic Hijra century.
4- It is NOT must to believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib for a Muslim.
5- Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement is only an organization for propagation of rational, tolerant, peaceful, inspiring, non-sectarian message of Islam. Mostly focused on taking its mission of service to Islam to Christian countries of Europe and Americas.
6- If some Muslim brother/ sister wants to join our organization they are expected to volunteer their time, energies and finances as much as they can afford comfortably for propagation of Islam.
7- Every Muslim and non-Muslim is welcome to read, benefit and propagate message of Islam published by Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) literature. LAM literature is available online and in print. There websites:
www.aaiil.org
www.ahmadiyya.org
8- Like Pakistani Islamic scholar Javed Ahmad Ghamdi and other Islamic Scholars in countries outside Pakistan, Lahori-Ahmadis hold belief that Hazrat Isa AS (Jesus) has died and will NOT return to this earth in physical form.
Mubashir Lucman sahib you’re this effort will go a long way in service of Islam and Pakistan. I can start answering to accusations made by your guests; actually they are as old as Ahmadiyya Movement started by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani sahib. They have been answered zillion times by LAM and available on their websites referred above. Instead I want to request you and bring some information to your knowledge:
1- It will be highly appreciated if in one of your TV program you can mention about LAM and their beliefs, as given above.
2- If you can raise issue on your TV program that Government of Pakistan should officially make public 1974 National Assembly sessions proceedings (including the first TWO days when LAM representative testified) that passed 2nd amendment to 1973 constitution declaring both groups i.e. Lahori-Ahmadis and Qadiani-Ahmadis as non-Muslim (Kafir). After all it has been more than 35 years, and under Pakistani law confidential documents can be made public after 25 years. Record of 2nd amendment does not contain any national security issue. Especially when it has been many years since Hamud-ur-Rehman inquiry commission report on fall of Dacca has been made public. And that report dealt with national security issues.
3- It might be information for you that in early to mid 1980s there was a court case between LAM and Muslim Ulema in South Africa. Muslim Ulema were supported by all the prominent ulema from Pakistan and other countries. This case was tried in an impartial court and an impartial judge gave the decision. The decision was in favour of LAM. Interestingly Muslim Ulema from Pakistan decided not to defend their case saying that, “a non-Muslim court can not decide a case of Muslim”. They forgot Pakistan also had famous non-Muslim Supreme Court judges from Justice Alvin Robert Cornelius to as recent as Justice Rana Bhagwandas. Anyways, the South African court case was published in Pakistani Law book: Pakistan Supreme Court Cases, March, 1986, Vol V, Part 3
(Chief Editor: Malik Muhammad Qayyum, Advocate Supreme Court)
The judgment said:
(a) Ahmadis (Lahori)
— Held: Ahmadis are Muslims. (Para 67, 68, 83)
(b) Ahmadis
— Mirza Ghulam Ahmad – Founder of Ahmadis sect of Muslim —
Held:Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was “Wali” or “Mujadid” and not the prophet.
(Para 27)
(c ) Ahmadis (Lahori)
— Muslim Mosque – Admittance of –Entitlement of – Ahmadis (Lahori)
— Held: Ahmadis (Lahori) are entitled to admittance to Muslim mosque held under dead of transfer dated 11-2-1881 (Para 83)
(d) Ahmadis (Lahori)
— Muslim cemetery –Burial – Right of –Ahmadi (Lahori)
— Held: Ahmadi (Lahori) has right of burial in Muslim cemetery as another Muslims have. (Para 83)
(e) Ahmadis (Lahori)
— Muslims – Right of propagation against Ahmadis – Muslims restrained from disseminating, Publishing or otherwise Propagating false, harmful malicious and defamatory matter of and concerning members of the Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ashati Islam Lahore South Africa to wit, that such members are non-Muslims disbelievers “Kafir, apostates, murtads” that they are non-believers. (Para 83)
(f) Ahmadis
— Founder of Ahmadi Sect – Claims of – Stated:-
(i) He denied receiving wahy nubuwwat (prophethood) and affirmed receiving wahy wilayat (sainthood).
(ii) He denied the use of Prophet (nabi) in its technical sense and affirmed the use of this term in its literal sense.
(iii) He denied that the term muhaddas could be applied to him in its literal sense and affirmed that he was a muhaddas in the technical sense.
(iv) He denied being an actual or real prophet and affirmed being a metaphorical prophet.
The SCANNED PAGES of Pakistan Supreme Court cases are available on Lahori-Ahmadis websites. See the link:
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case/intro.htm (Scroll to bottom of the link).
To read it in text form please visit:
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case/judg.htm
It is very unfortunate that Lahori-Ahmadis are bundled together with Qadiani-Ahmadis. And Pakistani masses, politicians and Ulema wrongly think since Lahori-Ahmadis also hold belief that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani was a truthful person, so they “must” hold the same belief as Qadiani-Ahmadis.
From Rashid:
VIEW: The liabilities of our state —Yasser Latif Hamdani
The state is not only negligent of its duty in protecting the faith of the Ahmedis, it is directly criminally liable under its own Blasphemy Law every time it prints a passport or an identity card application
See link
From A:
I have watched the program and its beyond me that why majority of Pakistanis are guilty of prophet’s worship?
I have heard this statement a lot of time – Allah has created whole of this existence for a single man i.e prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
I feel that it may be an appealing statement for an emotional audience but quite offending for those who are followers of Tawheed. I do not recall that i have read any verse which coorborates with such understanding.
Allah is Rahman and Rahim for all – His blessings are for all and the merit for using them in our best interests is for all.
This physical existence which prepares us for next life is created for all by Rabb so we attain our goal of creation. is it not unjustified to utter such statment which is not in harmony with Allah’s attributes? I do not think that Allah only wanted prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to experience life on earth to enter the next stage of life.
I feel that a good majority of Pakistanis do not have any understanding about the attributes of Allah and the physical life on earth, which like a womb of mother develops a being to deliver for next world.
From Rashid:
My comment on ‘The liabilities of our state —Yasser Latif Hamdani’
YLH has posted his article on his blog PTH. I posted following comment:
Dear YLH:
Way back in late 1980s, I challenged ‘Declaration for a Muslim’ in Pakistani Passport in Federal Ombudsman court/ office in Islamabad. At that time Sardar Iqbal was the ombudsman. I even suggested to him to make ‘Oath of Office of President of Pakistan’ (given in 1973 constitution) in lieu of ‘Declaration for a Muslim’. Instead he started asking me if I am a “Lahori-Ahmadi”. My reply was, “My religion is Islam, and I’m a Muslim”. I further informed him, Islamic history tells us that in time of Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh, there was a claimant of prophethood Masleema Kazzab. Still Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh did NOT demand from those who were converting to Islam to curse ‘Masleema’. All he asked them to recite Kalima-Shahada. Anyway, judge said he would send me the judgment. Which was like this: “Your issue is outside my jurisdiction”. My plan was to file writ petition in Rawalpindi High Court. But then I decided to not pursue the issue. My time was precious for me.
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/the-liabilities-of-our-state/#comments
From Rashid:
Impoverished Journalism and Impious Mullahs
A writeup on Mubashir Lucman show on Express News, on Pak tea House blog
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/impoverished-journalism-and-impious-mullahs/#comment-35588
From A:
Day before yesterday there was another program on Express TV hosted by Mr Luqman. It was about “Does Islam allow a woman to divorce her husband”.
It seemed liked that the host and guests were trying to prove, by using Quran, that men are give ‘superiorty’ over women because they can “give” divorce and women can’t.
I find this attitude quite disrespectful to Quran. They do not reflect that why would Allah bother about giving one gender superiority over other? or it is more according to His wisdom to give them laws which regulate their affairs fairly?
1. to prove gender superiority by taking verses out of context.
2. it is not a man’s right to “give’ divorce” to a woman whenever he wants – he also has to appoint a judge and to give it in presence of witnesses (if i am right).
they should know
The Prophet said that women
totally dominate men of intellect and possessors of hearts, But ignorant men dominate women,
for they are shackled by the ferocity of animals.
There is no need to use Quran to prove to each other that who can dominate other.
From A:
Question – what does Quran say about poetry and poets?
A guest, on Mr Luqman show, quoted verses from ch 26 to show that Quran condemns poets and poetry. the guest quoted these verses for those who study Allama Iqbal’s potery.
did he quote the verses out of context? many wali ullahs have written poems and poetry is just a way of expression.
A poet is someone
Who can pour Light into a cup
and raise it to nourish your
beautiful parched holy mouth
–Hafiz
From Shery:
Peace be upon you. I have a question, for you, the Lahore Ahmadi movement. You consider yourself as the righteous Jamat, the Jamat Muhammad SAAW foretold about, right?
Then why are you so small? like a few thousands, not even that maybe? Why is Allah swt not supporting you? no offence – just a question
Why do you say Ahmad(as) never claimed Prophethood, while it is crystal clear that he did. He so many times said that he was a Prophet + the hadith tells us that the coming one will be a Prophet of Allah, still, you reject it?
Please answer, peace be upon you
From Zahid Aziz:
Dear Shery, You are probably unaware that we receive this question on a routine basis and have answered it countless times.
We don’t consider ourselves as the “righteous Jamaat”. We do however consider that we are presenting that picture of Islam to the world which it needs to receive today.
We are small in number. That is the truth. Allah likes the truth. The Holy Prophet (i.e. Muhammad, the one born in 571) says that if a person continues telling the truth, he become a great truth teller near Allah.
I say this because your Jamaat repeatedly claimed to be 200 million in number in recent years. I leave it up to you to ponder whether this was a truthful claim or not, and to ponder on what the above mentioned hadith says about a person who repeatedly speaks an untruth.
You say “he so many times said that he was a prophet”. Did he apply any qualification or restriction to this, or did he just say “prophet”? When pressed, your Jamaat says he was a non-law bearing prophet, or subordinate prophet, or zilli prophet. You yourself start downgrading him! You yourself don’t believe that he can be just called “prophet”.
The hadith you have mentioned says that the one to come is “Isa ibn Maryam, prophet of Allah”. The first part of this, you don’t accept literally!