The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement Blog

I hope the Pakistan government will also explain why the publication of the proceedings was originally prohibited. If it was such a triumph for the National Assembly and the government, and if their case was so strongly conclusive, the government should have been only too keen to publish them.

Then there is the question whether the National Assembly has the power to declare some other group as non-Muslim on some other basis, such as for killing dozens of Muslims in Pakistan almost every week by planting bombs, or (as opposed to this) for collaborating with non-Muslim powers to enable them to pursue and kill Muslims in Pakistan.

The National Assembly could hold further hearings on the definition of “absolute and unconditional belief in the finality of prophethood” which the constitution requires a Muslim to believe in. Perhaps a further amendment is required on the lines:

“If a person who was a prophet before the Holy Prophet Muhammad appears again in the world, belief in him does not violate the finality of prophethood provided that he has either resigned or retired from his office as prophet, and can show evidence of this by a copy of his resignation letter addressed to Allah or letter of dismissal from Allah or proof of receipt of pension from Allah.”

In 1970 elections Qadiani Jamaat at organizational level supported and helped Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB). Being a religious organization, Qadiani Jamaat should not have involved itself in politics of Pakistan. After victory, Qadiani Jamaat interfered in politics of Punjab at provincial level and in politics of Pakistan at federal level. In Justice Samdani Inquiry Commission these facts were brought up. In addition to that, Qadiani Jamaat leadership, in particular their Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Mirza Tahir Ahmad (later Khalifa 4), in order to put political pressure on ZAB started courting his political rival Asghar Khan of Tahreek-e-Istaqlal. To knock off Qadiani Jamaat’s political value, ZAB used the opportunity of Rabwah railway station incident and its aftermath. He declared Qadiani Jammat as non-Muslim in 2nd constitutional amendment in Pakistan’s 1973 constitution. ZAB referred to his “service” to Islam, in Colonel Rafi-ud-Din book ‘Last 323 days of Bhutto’. ZAB accused Qadianis of becoming kingmakers in Pakistan like Jews are in USA.
 
My information about 1974 national assembly proceedings is based on booklet distributed by LAM delegation to national assembly members, and on oral history of LAM representatives, I hold opinion:
 
Opening to public 1974 national assembly proceedings will expose weak case of religious politicians in national assembly, political dishonesty of secular politicians in national assembly, indefensible beliefs of Qadiani Jamaat, and boastful statements of Qadiani elders that if 1974 record is made public half of Pakistan will become Ahmadi (Qadiani).

This will also help LAM in making our case to general public that we were penalized in 1974 because of ‘guilty by association’. Among the parties involved making 1974 record public will only help LAM. As truth about beliefs of LAM comes to knowledge of Pakistani Muslims, their resistance to LAM literature will decrease over time, and hopefully they will be able to benefit from it.

During a visit to Pakistan last year I bought a book entitled Bhutto Ka Adalati Qatal? (Judicial Murder of Bhutto?) by Mujahid Lahori, M.A. Ll.B. (2nd edition, 2008). The author tries to prove that the legal proceedings against Bhutto were totally biased, deeply flawed, motivated by enmity against him etc.

Writing about allegations spread against Bhutto, the author writes:

“At one time Bhutto was declared kafir. Fatwas of kufr against him were widely propagated. This custom of takfir is very old. Previously, great men such as Mansur Hallaj, and recently great leaders such as Allama Iqbal and Quaid-i Azam were made targets of this custom. Bhutto was not more holy or greater than these. These people also declared that those who vote for Bhutto are reprobates and misguided. Many ulama refused to hold funeral prayers for workers of the People’s Party” (p. 77-78).

Now contrast this with what the same author writes only 5 pages later while listing the achievements of Bhutto:

“By declaring Mirzais as non-Muslim, he solved the 100-year old issue of Khatm-i nubuwwat. On this achievement, his worst opponent Agha Sorash Kashmiri congratulated him and on this occasion paid him tribute in a passionate poem.” (p. 82)

The poem is then reproduced. I here translate its last verse:

“Bhutto’s name will live forever,
O Shorash, the evil ones have been defeated, zindabad

— Shorash Kashmiri, Chatan, 10-16 September 1974″

On p. 77 takfir is an old pastime, whose targets include the greatest of Muslims. On p. 82 declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslim is a great achievement!

When Shorash Kashmiri wrote that “Bhutto’s name will live forever”, he didn’t know that it would live forever as a man hanged for ordering murder, and that Bhutto’s execution would be brought about by those who were congratulating him most for declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslim!

Are Qadianis backing out of their boastful statements?
 
Growing up I heard more than once from different Qadianis, including my fanatic Qadiani relatives that, if Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad [QK3] statements in 1974 assembly are published half of Pakistan will become Ahmadi [Qadiani]. I also heard this statement was made by QK3 himself.
 
Now Qadianis are saying that original statement was made by then speaker of house Farooq Ali and QK3 only reiterated it. It is obvious QK3 agreed with Farooq Ali that is why he reiterated it; otherwise he would have rejected it.
 
Qadianis use to boast in presence of LAM members, and now when there is a chance to put to test their statement, they are backing out.
 
On anti-HMGA website (ahmedi.org) there is quote of Qadiani Jamaat Khalifa 5:
Quote:
“I believe that if the Ahmadiyyah viewpoint reached the people of Pakistan, then there would be no reason why the whole Pakistan did not become Ahmadi.” Mirza Tahir Ahmad Sahib, ‘Khalifa IV’.
A deplorable scheme of Falsification and Accusations.
Pdf document page 27.
End quote.
 
Link to above Qadiani jamaat publication is provided, but it is no more working.
 
I hope our Qadiani friends, and especially my fanatic Qadiani relatives realize that QK3 and QK4 (Mirza Tahir Ahmad) statements were another lies like 200 million worldwide and 80 million in India alone joined their jamaat.
 

The Assembly hearings weren’t the only events in 1974 in Pakistan about this issue. Mobs under incitement of Mullahs were going round attacking Ahmadis, burning their properties and forcing them under threat of death to declare that they were not Ahmadis but Muslims.

There were also some comical situations. A mob surrounded a factory on rumours that the owner was an Ahmadi and threatened to burn it. The owner said to them: What have you got against me? They said, You are an Ahmadi. He replied: But I don’t even believe in God. They said, Oh sorry, that’s all right then, we have nothing against you. And they went away!

An Ahmadi was dragged by a mob and told that he must declare his belief in khatam-i nubuwwat. He said, all right, I will declare it. He announced: I believe in the khatam-i nubuwwat of Hazrat Adam. The crowd was absolutely delighted and cheered, that we have made an Ahmadi accept khatam-i nubuwwat.

Why only half of Pakistani population will join Qadiani Jamaat?
 
I wonder why Qadiani jamaat elders held belief that if 1974 record is made public half of Pakistani population will join their jamaat, why not 100% of Pakistani population, INCLUDING THE “PAIGHAMIS” (i.e. Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his followers as contempt addressed LAM members with this name)?
 
I think Mirza Tahir Ahmad (QK4) realized flaw in claim of Mirza Nasir Ahmad (QK3), so he jacked up the claim to 100%, per his quote.

My late father became Ahmadi at a very young age. He was hardly 16 years old, and student of pre-medical in Islamia College, Peshawar. He was quite a promising student, and my grandfather use to say that he will sell his lands to send him for education to England. As part of family dynamics, cousins of my grandfather became jealous, as they were foreseeing promising future of their cousin’s son. So, in cover of their “Islamic duty” they kept taunting and feeding into my grandfather ear that his son is apostle and he must me put to death. After my grandfather failed in his attempts to convince my father, he and his cousins planned to murder him. It is another story, how Allah SWT saved my father, when his father and his uncles were on hunt and chase to murder him.

Interesting point is that Allah SWT punished those perpetrators in such a wonderful way that the same uncles themselves became Qadianis. They adopted beliefs farthest from the prevailing beliefs among general Muslims. They became quite prominent among Qadianis. So, much so that the chief “motivator” became Ameer (head) of Qadianis in Hazra Division. If my memory is serving me right, he later became Ameer of Qadianis in North West Frontier Province (now renamed as Khyber Pakhtoonkhawa). 
 
During 1974 riots the Qadiani Ameer sahib and his sons sought refuge in Islamabad. My father frequently visited him and on many occasion I accompanied him. This Qadiani Ameer sahib was quite distressed in his displacement. He was at least in his 80s. My father suggested his uncle, that as it won’t be safe for him to return to his native town Mansehra and also for his mental health, so it was better that he should forget about returning to his home and rather he should move to Rabwah. But Qadiani Ameer sahib turned down my father’s suggestion. He replied, “People will confiscate my property, lands, and house. And I don’t want to lose them”. So, the Qadiani Ameer sahib returned to Mansehra, where first he was taken to a largest mosque in town. There he recited Kalima-Shahada to become Muslim, and in addition cursed Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, to prove renunciation of his former beliefs. Few years later he passed away, Lahori-Ahmadis (including my father) and general Muslims offered his funeral prayer (at that time it was not announced by Mullahs that Ahmadis should not join in funeral of a Muslim), but former Qadiani Ameer sahib’s own Qadiani relatives did not offer his funeral prayer.
 
Compared to the person Ikram mentioned, who renounced his Qadiani faith due to his old age, the Qadiani Ameer sahib of NWFP renounced his faith out of fear of losing his property and house. I think this was another punishment for him from Allah SWT for what he did to my father.
 

I remember a joke-like incident in my childhood.

A person who was a self proclaimed hero “Phane Khan” said to a number of people in a Bethak (a place where people sit toghether and gossip) that he will turn me into a muslim today. After saying this he came to me and said today I will convert you into a muslim by reciting Kalima. I said I am ready to say Kalima. He said then you recite as I recite. I said ok i will recite after you. He then recited loudly (people sitting in bethak were watching and listening) Bismilahi Rehmanir Raheem. I recited the same after him.Then he recited Ahozubillahi Minash Shetanir Rajeem. By this time he had realized that he had said this in wrong order. The people sitting in bethak started laughing loudly.  He got ashamed and said “today you just escaped from becoming a muslim”

1. Is it only the truthful who multiply with the passage of time? Since Islam came into the world, Christianity has spread vastly over those centuries!

2. We are only too happy to forget anything said by Qadiani khalifas and to base our beliefs only on what the Promised Messiah said.

3. The Anjuman’s Divine mandate was given by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who created it and designated it as his Ja-nashin or successor in his Will. See: http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/khil2.htm

4. Extinction must, by definition, bring something to an end. According to you, we have been becoming extinct for about ninety years. 

Of course, in comparison with your 200 million size (one in every eight Muslims) I admit we are extinct.

It is your beliefs (Muslims are kafir, Holy Prophet Muhammad was not the prophesied Ahmad of the Quranic verse of ch. 61) that have actually become extinct among you.

The hatred is yet again evident. You have stampted my observation. I would humbly suggest you to engage in a meaningful discourse on intellectual issues rather than mudslinging which has not caused any harm to Qadianis but has made yourselves filthy. May I repeat my question again which has escaped your attention: “Please let us know what divine mandate your Anjumann has  and your plus”.

Najam Sethi is famous journalist of Pakistan. On Geo TV he has show ‘Aapas Ki Baat, Najam Sethi Kay Saath’. After watching his program, I sent him following email.
 
Dear Najam Sethi sahib,
AOA,
I’m physician in US. My name is Rashid Jahangiri. I watched your program on line. Aired on May 31, 2011. You informed viewers that today was birthday of Salman Taseer shaheed. You explained in detail problems faced in getting justice for him. You complained how politicians, judges, attorneys, witnesses etc are scared in face of Mullah power. You also complained that inquiry commission reports are not published. My question to you is, who gave this power to Mullah? Who started tradition of never letting inquiry commission reports see light of the day?
Sethi sahib, I’m your fan, but I wonder why you don’t tell us the truth? If you don’t know, here is my hint to you.
Although, trigger on ST was pulled by his body guard, but the blood trail leads to 1974 Pakistan National Assembly and ends on hands of hero of ST i.e. PPP Chairman and Prime Minister of Pakistan, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.
ZAB did not make public Justice Samdani Commission inquiry report, because it would have exposed how Qadiani Jamaat on organizational level helped PPP win 1970 election, and their Khalifa and Co started making demands from PPP on federal and Punjab provincial level, and started courting ZAB political opponent Asghar Khan of Tahreek-e-Istiqlal. To teach Qadianis a lesson and decimate them politically, ZAB used religion for political purposes. He held trial of Qadianis in closed parliamentary sessions. Where prosecution, jury, and executioner was one party. No journalists were allowed inside. After trial record was ordered to be kept secret. If Justice Hammud-ur-Rehman commission report that had national security issues got published long ago, then why not 1974 national assembly trial?
ZAB started the tradition of travesty of justice in Pakistan. He started tradition of never letting inquiry commission reports see light of the day. He was the first person who abused his powers to declare Kalima-Reciters as Kafir. He did not provide justice. After that injustice with in four years, the first person that faced injustice at the highest level in Pakistan was none other than ZAB himself. Chief Justice of Lahore High Court declared him Kafir. He pleaded with Supreme Court of Pakistan that he be declared Muslim because he recites Kalima-Shahada. Before his judicial murder he learned what is the only requirement for a person to be accepted as Muslim i.e. as long as that person recites Kalima-Shahada.
If you read articles by journalist Khalid Hasan, ZAB’s press secretary, or even his daughter BB’s autobiography ‘Daughter of the East’, you will know ZAB indulged in un-Islamic practices that many Kalima-Shahada reciters, whom he declared Kafir did not indulge in.
My question to you is, if person like ZAB with all his human weaknesses feels entitled to declare Kalima-Shahada reciters as Kafir, then why you are not willing to give the same right to a Mullah to declare fellow Muslim as kafir, and right to kill him? A Mullah, who offers five times prayers, keep fasts, does not drink alcohol, and only have intimate relations with his lawfully wedded wife.
Dear Sethi sahib, please tell the truth to Pakistani nation. If you can do this, you will have my utmost respect. Please do it if you care for honesty and believe in telling the truth, and pointing out the root cause to today’s evils prevailing in Pakistani nation.
Sethi sahib, I don’t know if you will give any weight to what I am going to say now. Anyways, here it is: Pakistani nation usurped authority of Allah. They think they know it better than Allah to decide who is Muslim and who is Kafir. And Allah is very angry with Pakistanis. He has a solution: Break Pakistan into multiple pieces, so that there remains no Pakistan, no 1973 constitution and no second amendment that declares Kalima-Rciters as Kafir. Solution is only one: Either get second constitution amendment to 1973 constitution repealed, or be prepared for Allah to take care of it. And Pakistan being ‘Land of Pure’ and ‘castle of Islam’ and its citizens, as True-Muslims should accept Allah’s will, when it ceases to exist as Pakistan and in its current geographical boundaries.
Good luck and Allah Hafiz.
Rashid Jahangiri, M.D.
 
Link to Najam Sethi’s program. Please watch it at 18 minutes.
http://pkpolitics.com/2011/05/31/aapas-ki-baat-31-may-2011/
 
 

Friends,

I am an Indian Muslim and do not belong to either of the two groups- Q Jamaat  or LAM.

But, I am really curious about the number of followers of each of this group.

Does the Q Jamaat claim that there are 80 million of them in my country! and over 200 million in the world?!

Do they actually claim so? or is it mere mud-slinging against them?  

Where can I read it if such estimates exist? 

Secondly, how big is the LAM? LAM seems to be very active on the internet with many sites and lot of activity. What about actual missions and numbers?

Dear Fazeel Jamal, given below is the link to the press release issued by the Qadiani Jamaat on the occasion of their 2003 convention in London, the first one under the present Khalifa:

http://www.jalsasalana.org/uk/2003/uk_convention.pdf

On page 2, first paragraph, lines 3 to 4 say:

“… the Community has spread to 174 countries with 200 million followers…”

and paragraph 5 begins:

“Ahmadiyya Muslims number 200 million worldwide. With 20 million accepting the faith in 2002, it is the fastest growing religious community of Islam in the world.”

My jamaat appears to have given figures that were inconsistent.  Thats the only error.  There appears to have been prominent Ahmadis that fudged the numbers.  Either that or people left en-masse. 

Why does it matter?  Why havent the Lahoris expanded at all in the last 50 years or so?  We are giving the message of Hazrat sahib (as) to the world.  If people join and then leave, then that is between them and Allah. 

It is a Muslim’s duty to self to seek any intelligent source be it a book or a personality for his/her individual improvement which then in turn become basis for societal uplift. To achieve these goals books could range from Quran to any analysis of religious or secular pursuit. The personalities could be anyone who can offer some wisdom, be it in history or the present. Ultimately it is the individual’s free mind that is the integrator of external information to the inherent intelligence that all of us possess.
 
With the above in mind then HMGA is one such means of Islamic revival in our times, though a very important one, but he is not the end. The irony is that with Qadianis HMGA and the Khilafat are the ends unto themselves. This state of mind has close parallels in logic when Khwaja Kamaluddin sahib, while analyzing polytheism states:
 
“Pure monotheism would go to the real Fountain Head of all light, but the polytheistic tendency, innate in an undeveloped mind, would blight its judgement and benight its reasoning. Man would take the agent for the principal, the husk for the kernel, the effect for the cause, and the immediate for the ultimate. This psychology creates polytheism. All forms of “isms,” ranging from fetishism to Man-worship, thrive under it.” [Islam and Zoroastrianism by Khwaja Kamal ud din, pg 18, Basheer Muslim Library, The Mosque, Woking, pub: 1925.]
 

Dear Mr. Rashid:

Hazrat Sahib (as) had even written that there were 400,000 Ahmadis in 1904.  One could argue that this number was incorrect as well.  Would you blame Hazrat sahib (as) for incorrectly giving numbers? 

I dont accuse Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) of lying at all.  He gave the info that was presented to him.  Only Allah knows where all the converts went.  I dont understand why this is even relevant to you?  Why do continously attack us as if you are connected with Anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment.  Are you? 

Secondarily, you try to prove that all Muslims are members of LAM.  That’s a fallacy and a boast on your part.  It seems that your numbers are so low that you are willing to compromise the status of Hazrat Sahib (as) just so that you have a connection with the Muslim Ummah.  I beg to disagree. 

In Pakistan, the govt has declared us as Kafir.  Me and you.  We cant pray behind any of those people.  As per the declarations of Hazrat Sahib (as).  Nor can we participate in their funeral prayers. 

The kingdom of Arabic has declared us Kafir.  Technically, we cant pray behind any Imam in that country as well. 

I hope that I have respectfully answered your questions. 

@Fazil Jamal,

“I am surprised that they erased these figures from the public domain. How come a matter of pride turned into an embarrassment?”

Lies have no feet. It is brain-washed followers, who are now left to defend lies of their “appointee of Allah”. At the same time they are looking for ways to keep their self-esteem intact.

@Arshad:
 
“Hazrat Sahib (as) had even written that there were 400,000 Ahmadis in 1904.  One could argue that this number was incorrect as well.  Would you blame Hazrat sahib (as) for incorrectly giving numbers?”
 
HMGA was receiving Chanda (financial contributions) from his fans, so he knew what were his fans/ followers’ numbers. So, HMGA did NOT give incorrect numbers!
 
“I dont accuse Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad (ra) of lying at all.  He gave the info that was presented to him.”
 
If you think, Qadiani Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad was not lying, then you have to accept he was DELUSIONAL or IDIOT. He announced what ever he was fed is NO EXCUSE. He should have used his commonsense. Remember: An appointee of Allah is NOT delusional and Idiot. (Per HMGA). Your Qadiani jamaat is VERY GOOD AT ONE THING i.e. Collection of Chanda. Your Khalifa knows how many people are live in your jamaat and how much Chanda they pay. QK 4 has NOT excuse for lying ore rporting what ever was fed to him. He lied and it is matter of time for you Qadianis to accept the truth.
 
“Only Allah knows where all the converts went.”
They ALL became LAM members (per definition of HMGA regarding his jamaat).
 
“I dont understand why this is even relevant to you? “
 
It is important for me, because I want brainwashed followers of Qadiani Khalifas to WAKEUP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!
 
“Why do continously attack us as if you are connected with Anti-Ahmadiyya sentiment.  Are you?”
 
I am NOT connected with Anti-HMGA websites. I do NOT attack Qadianis. I only shake Qadianis to wakeup. I perform rehabilitation service to Qadianis. I want them to kick the drugs-intoxicated lives. It is because of Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his brothers and his progeny that today people are cursing HMGA. It is because of you Qadianis, we at LAM face difficulties in spreading writings of HMGA among Pakistanis both inside and outside Pakistan.
 
“Secondarily, you try to prove that all Muslims are members of LAM.  That’s a fallacy and a boast on your part. “
 
I provided numbers of LAM members per definition given by HMGA. You obviously think HMGA was “not” telling the truth when he gave his definition. You are obviously accusing HMGA!
 
“It seems that your numbers are so low that you are willing to compromise the status of Hazrat Sahib (as) just so that you have a connection with the Muslim Ummah.  I beg to disagree.”
 
You Qadianis DISAGREE WITH HMGA! So, I’m not surprised you disagree with LAM. 
We are NOT compromising HMGA status. Where as like Christians who raised status of Jesus to God, you Qadianis raised status of HMGA from reformer to messenger.
 
“In Pakistan, the govt has declared us as Kafir.  Me and you.”
 
In Pakistan LAM was declared Kafir because of Qadianis and especially because of QK2, QK3, QK 4. It was your QKs who called other Muslims Kafir and then tried to become King-Makers in Pakistani politics.
 
“We cant pray behind any of those people.  As per the declarations of Hazrat Sahib (as).  Nor can we participate in their funeral prayers.”
 
You Qadianis do NOT pray even behind LAM members. You Qadianis do NOT consider LAM as Muslims. Qadianis like you did NOT offer funeral prayer of LAM member (a lawyer by profession) who fed them when they were hungry, helped them get job and make their living, went to courts to defend them in Pakistani courts where because of Mullah-Fear even Qadiani lawyers were NOT appearing to defend their Qadiani fellows in cases where they were accused of blasphemy, preaching and murder!  
 
“The kingdom of Arabic has declared us Kafir.  Technically, we cant pray behind any Imam in that country as well.”
 
Yes, what Saudis did to you Qadianis, it was in direct result of you Qadianis and your Qadiani Khalifas. Still, you Qadianis go to Saudia for job and Hajj by cursing HMGA on Pakistani Passport applications. As per your Qadiani Khalifa 2 teachings you people do NOT offer prayers behind Imam of Kabba, even 60 years before you were banned by Saudis.
 
I hope I answered your all points.
 

Dear Arshad: I do not belong to Qadiani Jamaat. Now please convince or convert me to your school of thought. I believe that  to do so is your moral and religious duty. I give you head start with the following that I believe in. What do you have to add for your Jamaat?


La ilaha ill-Allah, Muhammad-ur rasul-ullah
“There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”

5:3. …This day have I perfected for you your faith and completed My blessings upon you and have chosen Islam for your religion…

33:40. Muhammad is no father to any man among you but (he is rather) the Messenger of Allâh and the Seal of the Prophets. Indeed Allâh has full knowledge of all things. [Seal with no ifs ands or buts about it]

34:28. (Prophet!) We have sent you not but towards entire mankind (till the end of time) as a Bearer of glad-tidings and as a Warner but most people do not know (that the Message of Islam is universal and the Qur’ân the last revealed Book).

39:3. Beware! sincere and true obedience is due to Allâh alone. Those who choose others as a patron beside Him (say), `We serve them only that they may bring us near to Allâh in station.’ (It is absolutely wrong.)… [patron includes any entity even Muhammad PBUH himself]

39:44. Say, `All intercession belongs to Allâh entirely. To Him belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, then towards Him you shall (all) be brought back.’
5:104. …They say, `Sufficient for us is that (tradition) whereon we have found our forefathers.’ What! (would they follow them blindly) even though their forefathers had no knowledge whatsoever and had no guidance?
 

@Arshad:

May be you would like to comment on your friend Tahir Mansoor Khan. He is in the news.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhfewV-CJFs&feature=youtu.be

@Arshad:
 
“Didnt Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad give his approval for any Ahmadi to participate in the funeral services for the late Muhammad Ali sahib?  I had read that somewhere in the past. “
 
It sounds like one of that story narrated on Pakistani Private TV channel ‘Point Blank with Mubashir Luqman’ on Express TV by your Qadiani Incharge in Pakistan Mr. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. When in actions Qadianis do NOT offer funeral prayer of Muslims and LAM but tell stories that they offered prayers of 1965 Pak-India war martyrs.
 
“Hazrat Mirza Basheerudin Mahmud Ahmad called Muslims Kafirs in the same vein as Hazrat Sahib (as) did in his letter to Dr. Abdul Hakim Khan Murtadd.  The sons of Hazrat sahib were only more boastful and upfront then their late father (as).”
 
Now you’re adopting typical approach of Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his brother. You try to accuse HMGA and thus justify QK2’s actions. This you people do only in presence of LAM. I’m wondering if indeed you’re Qadiani or one of HMGA opponent in disguise of Qadiani, just to malign HMGA. We have seen such posters on this forum in past.
 
“On a side note, you change your approach, you come off as someone who has been victimised intensely my by jamaat.”
 
Yes, HMGA and LAM are victimized by QK2. It is because of him that people are cursing HMGA and LAM is facing difficulties in its mission in Pakistan.
 
“Has anyone ever wronged you as such?”
 
For your information, a very BAD QADIANI talked nasty about my father in-law. His speech in 1956 against my father in-law turned out to be his last speech. He had stroke and was paralyzed for rest of his life. He had such an end that I won’t wish it for my worst enemy. That BAD QADIANI was Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad. If Allah took revenge Himself from someone who did wrong to my father in-law then, why should I complain? 

Dear Rashid,

Your family problems are very deep indeed.  Who was your father-in-law?  Was it Abdul Manaan?  It is very sad that anyone ever left Ahmadiyyat.  It hurts me even more that there are extenuating circumstances with your case.  It puzzles me that you are still an Ahmadi. 

FYI:  I am not any type of spy that you people accuse me of.  These are very heinous allegations.  I have been very respectful. 

Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad Communiqué
 
As preemptive measures against definite and expected humiliation after release of 1974 testimony/ cross questions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir in Pakistan National Assembly (as contrary to claims of QK3 half of Pakistan will join their Qadiani jamaat and according to claim of QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad whole of Pakistan will join Qadiani Jamaat) NO ONE in Pakistan will join Qadiani Jamaat, Qadianis have started saying that Pakistan Government will change by adding/ deleting the print version of QK3 testimony.
 
This is quite an absurd aspersion by Qadianis. If Mullahs make changes in Qadiani beliefs then they will only make their case weak against Qadianis. Qadianis hold belief that that HMGA was a messenger of Allah SWT like Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. So, it goes in favour of Pakistani Mullah to present testimony of QK3 as it is.
 
On the other hand QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad has taken another preemptive measure against possible fissures in his organization in wake of release of QK3 testimony.  It is very much possible QK3 inside the national assembly back tracked from Qadianis established belief about HMGA, just the way his father QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad backtracked in Munir Inquiry Commission.
QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad in his communiqué dated May 21, 2011 instructed his lieutenants to openly and unambiguously state, in their talks with others, that HMGA was “Messenger-of-Allah” (Nabi-Ullah).
I wonder if QK5 will also change his title in his communiqué from “Khalifa-tul-Massih” to “Khalifa-tul-Rasool”?
Here is link to scan image of QK5 communiqué posted on anti-HMGA website ahmedi.org:
http://ahmediorg.yuku.com/topic/3711/Prophethood-of-MGA-now-open-secret
 
 

@ Rashid

May I ask why you spared Khalifa#1(Noor-u-din) from this list. I mean Logically as you’ve mentioned earlier HMGA wish was that Ajuman will be the successor. As per your claim LMA are on right path(true followers of HMGA) than in the light of HMGA claim you Muhammad Ali should have separated from Mainstream Qadiyani jamat at the moment First Khalifa annouced his khilafat. Because that was the point when as per your claim Jamat was drifting away from what HMGA said.

Please clearly explain why do you guys believe in first khalifa and not the rest. Please do not include the personality attack and excuses. Clearly state what is Mohammed Ali point of view about this issue. From what I’ve heard Mohammed Ali did raise the voice in the time of Irst Khalifa but once he saw that its not the right time yet. He backed down temporarily.

Second Question is: LMA believe in HMGA as being truthful. So it was same HMGA who had a revelation from GOD about a divine son. Now obviously LMA believe Mohammed Ali as being the devine son and not Mirza Mahmood Ahmad(II khalifa of qadiayanis). I have the whole statement of the Sabaz Ishtihar. Can you tell me how does Mohammed Ali fit to every quality mentioned in the devine son revealation?

Third Question: You believe HMGA was truthful. So obviously his jamat was a bunch of people following a truthful person. The time of this separation majority stayed with qadiyani belief and few went with LMA. Why God didnt give this opportunity to majority to split away and join LMA??

Fourth Question: If Mohammed Ali was on right path. He was obviously going for a noble cause, why did he need to take all the money from qadiyani jamat fund. If Mohammed Ali was a true believer he would have shown the qualities of the religious leader(HMGA) he was following. HMGA started jamat from null with minimum or sometimes zero funds and a true person would never accumulate funds for future he should alwayd have trust in GOD.

Fifth Question: Every organization/person exists till they  have a goal/objective of life. What is the Goal or objective of LMA? If there is any than how do you see GOD helping you achieving that. Like can you quote any manifestation of GOD that makes all LMA followers committed and energetic that Yes we have support of GOD.
If however LMA has no goal then why do they exist. Its like existing with millions of useless people around the world with no Goal. Doesnt that fail the purpose of the descent and claim of HMGA.

Few Basic Questions to do a fair comparison beside bashing and mud slinging from both sides
How many mosques does LMA established throughout the world?
How many mission houses? How many missionaries sent to world?
How many LMA TV channels are propagating islam right now?
How many humatarian organizations does LMA have?
How many schools, hospitals, water supplies did LMA establish/maintain in Africa and throughout world every year?
Which countries LMA hold annual jalsa salana annually? In your view if one organization hold more jalsa salana would it mean they are seeing God support and manifestation more than the other? Becoz that means carrying on the sacred tradition of Jalsa Mazahab-e-azam throughout the world.

Please refrain from accusations and claims that you cant back up with solid reference. Also jokes and made up stories that you cant reference properly would not

@Tag:
 
Dear Tag,
I will be spending my very precious time answering your questions. Could you please show me a courtesy of acknowledging my replies and promising that you will NEVER raise the same questions again as a mischievous act?
 
Question 1:
Why LAM accepts Maulana Noor ud Din as Khalifa of HMGA but not Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad or Qk3, 4 and now 5?
 
Answer:
Khalifa in Shariat terminology is ONLY that ONE person who immediately comes after Mamur-min-Allah. And he is ALWAYS the FIRST person who did ba’it of that Mamur-min-Allah.
Hazrat Abu Bakr was first person to do the ba’it of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, and he was the ONLY Khalifa of him. Hazrat Umar Farooq or Hazrat Usman and Ali were NOT Khalifa of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS in Shariat terminology.
Like wise Maulana Noor ud Din was the FIRST person to do ba’it of HMGA so he was his ONLY Khalifa in Shariat terminology.
Other than that word Khalifa in dictionary sense has many meaning like Political Head of state, or even a Nai (barber), or a Crazy person.
 
Question 2:
Why LAM does not accept QK2 as divine son of HMGA?
 
Answer:
HMGA all his life could NOT figure out who will be his divine son. He even thought IF there is a possibility that his divine son will be fathered by him, then he better try to father a son, and he tried that. But after a while he wrote to Maulana Noor ud Din that the divine son whose image has been shown to him in his dream/ vision and his looks and character that he saw, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have him from mother of Qadiani Khalifa 2. And for that he might have to marry again. Basically he was saying, that from the looks and character of his then wife (i.e. mother of QK2) he can NOT have the divine son. This means Character and Looks of mother of QK2 were BAD!!
Moreover, just like every Qadiani believes that they are sons and daughters of HMGA in spiritual sense then it is very much possible that, Promised Son could be anyone who believes HMGA to be a genuine Mamur-min-Allah among children of current Qadianis or LAM member or even someone who is neither a Qadiani or LAM member.
Last but NOT the least, anybody COULD be a Promised Son (subject to certain conditions) but Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad could NEVER be one. QK2 personal character was worst than animals. He was worst than any imagination. Just read ‘Rabwah Ka Raasputin’ by Tahir Rafiq (a former Qadiani) or watch his videos on youtube.
 
Question 3:
Why majority of HMGA did not go with LAM in 1914?
Answer:
Many reasons:
1-     Media was not so powerful like today’s Internet and satellite news channels. People outside Qadian hardly knew what happened there.
2-     People did NOT know the TRUE BELIEFS of QK2, in 1914.
3-     In all societies the Brain (i.e. intellectuals) are less in number and Body (rest of followers) are more. Brains of Ahmadiyya Movement of HMGA moved to Lahore in 1914.
4-     In every society people who worship hero (Piri-Mureedi) are more. And specially many who had joined HMGA movement came from that background and they stayed where there was city of their Master (Pir) i.e. HMGA and where there was his and Maulana Noor ud Din graves.
5-     Many thought in 1914 it is a temporary split, even LAM elders had same opinion, and that they will all return to ‘Darul-Amman’ i.e. Qadian.
 
Question 4:
Why Maulana Muhammad Ali brought jamaat funds to Lahore in 1914?
 
Answer:
The ONLY person who accompanied Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib from Qadian to Lahore was MY MATERNAL GRANDFATHER (Shaikh Muhammad Naseeb). Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib came EMPTY HANDED. He did NOT even bring with him the manuscript of Holy Quran English Translation. On the day after he arrived in Lahore Dr. Muhammad Hussain sent his servant and on instructions of Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib, brought the manuscript, which was at that time in the newer house of Sir Zafarullah Khan, the one that is on outskirts of Qadian. So, this is ABSOLUTE LIE that Maulana Muhammad Ali brought some funds with him to Lahore.
Even if he had done it, still it would have been absolutely acceptable as HE WAS THE PRESIDENT of Sadar Anjuman, and he was responsible for the funds until next President takes over.
 
Question 5:
What is goal of LAM?
 
Answer:
Actually there are many goals of LAM. So much so that finances and manpower is, like always, less.  Few of LAM goals:
1-     To Constantly clear the misconceptions created about HMGA by Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his followers in Muslims minds.
2-     To constantly tell Muslims, that QK2 beliefs that all those Muslims who have NOT even heard name of HMGA are like monkeys, dogs, Christians, Hindus, and that THOUSANDS OR MORE PROPHETS CAN COME IN FUTURE, are absolutely wrong, lies and NOT that of HMGA.
3-     To constantly tell Muslims that Qadiani Khalifa 2 and his brother Mirza Bashir Ahmad, the so called “Moon of Prophets” were WRONG when they wrote that HMGA use to get his legs messaged by a woman Bano, or that he use to sniff pants of Muhammadi Begum.
4-     To constantly continue the mission of HMGA by making his books and their translations available to world wide readers.
5-     To constantly produce quality literature on Islam for propagation and defense of Islam in a peaceful manner.
6-     To fulfill VISION of HMGA where he handed his mission to small party of 5 thousand followers and did NOT give to large party of 100 thousand followers.
 
Question 6:
How many mosques LAM has?
 
Answer:
According to HMGA those who do not oppose him are AMONG HIS JAMAAT, even if they have NOT done his ba’it. Obviously, this is NOT belief of Qadiani Jamaat. But this is belief LAM. Thus there are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF LAM members and MILLIONS OF LAM MOSQUES. Per HMGA belief one does NOT have to sign ba’it form or pay Chanda (financial contributions) to LAM to be among HMGA jamaat. LAM members have NO problem in offering prayer in any one of their MILLIONS OF MOSQUES.
 
Question 7:
How many mission houses LAM has?
 
Answer:
LAM has MILLION of mission houses. Every mosque is a mission house, per HMGA belief.
 
Question 8:
How many TV Channels LAM has?
 
Answer:
Many Channels, especially in Arab countries. Any Muslim channel that does NOT speak ill of HMGA. Per HMGA they are from his jamaat.
 
Question 9:
How many humanitarian organizations LAM has?
 
Answer:
Again numerous. All humanitarian organizations run by Muslims. Per HMGA beliefs.
 
Question 10:
How many schools, hospitals, roads etc LAM built?
 
Answer:
Again thousands of them. Per HMGA beliefs.
 
BTW: Tell your Qadiani Khalifa 5 and his stooges that don’t make his followers stupid like QK2, 3 and 4. Tell him CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME.
Go visit Rabwah and see for yourself the BROKEN ROADS AND POOR PUBLIC WORKS. Tell your QK5 that prove to his followers in Rabwah that Qadianis do build roads by building them in Qadiani followers neighborhoods in Rabwah. The schools and road construction by Qadianis in Africa is  a BIG SCAM, only to loot QK’s followers hard earned monies.
 
Mr. Tag,
You can reject my answers ONLY IF YOU DECIDE TO REJECT HMGA SAYINGS AND WRITINGS.
 

Coming back to the original topic, a Paksinai business daily has again reported that the 1974 proceedings may be unvieled in the next session of parliment.

1. I heard at the time in 1974 that some Shias in Lahore said to Ahmadis: You were few, that’s why they succeeded against you. Let them try it against us, and they will find out what we can do!

2. Soon after the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslim in 1974, I heard that some Shias had gone to court claiming that Sunnis should also be declared as non-Muslim because they recite the same Kalima as Ahmadis, and if Ahmadis are non-Muslim, then so are Sunnis. Z.A. Bhutto then stepped in and had the case terminated!

The late Salman Taseer is considered guilty of blasphemy because he declared that a certain person accused of blasphemy is innocent or that the blasphemy law is itself wrong and unjust. Without himself at all committing blasphemy, he is considered guilty by association.

This, in fact, parallels the situation whereby not only are Ahmadis non-Muslims under the law of Pakistan, but anyone who, as a Muslim, doesn’t regard Ahmadis as non-Muslim is also declared a non-Muslim. Thus a person who does not even hold Ahmadiyya beliefs, who may even consider those beliefs to be wrong, becomes a non-Muslim by association.

If Mumtaz Qadri is freed, it would mean that if anyone in Pakistan considers that, in his opinion, some other person has committed blasphemy, he is entitled under the law immediately to murder that person. The killer would not even need to prove that his victim had committed blasphemy, because the killer’s judgment is sufficient!

Contrast this with the Holy Prophet Muhammad’s reply to husbands, telling them that if one of them even saw with his own eyes his wife with another man, he cannot apply any punishment by his own hands but must bring witnesses before a judge and prove his accusation. The Holy Prophet said if the enraged husband killed the other man or the wife, he would be guilty of the crime of murder, and if the husband spread allegations against his wife without witnesses he would be punished for slandering.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/10/25/qadri-case-judge-sent-abroad.html

LAHORE: The district and sessions judge, who had handed down two death sentences to Mumtaz Qadri for killing Punjab governor Salman Taseer, has left for Saudi Arabia along with his family after receiving death threats from extremists.

Mullah-Mafia in Pakistan exactly copying practices of Drug-Mafia in Latin America! 

I came across following Newspaper article. I am sharing it with readers.

  ANALYSIS: Persecution of Ahmedis in the Islamic Republic —Yasser Latif Hamdani
Daily Times
Monday, December 05, 2011
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C12%5C05%5Cstory_5-12-2011_pg3_6

This news report says: “During four sessions, the then head of Jamat-e-Ahmadiya Mirza Tahir Ahmed had given arguments in support of his stance, …”

I hope the released record is more accurate than this statement! 

Who knows that this may be the start of the very long road back? First the records are released. Then people start reading the proceedings and re-examining them, then they begin questioning their legitimacy from both the Islamic and constitutional/legal aspects.

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote in a verse of poetry in Persian:

“Today my people do not recognise my status,
The day will come when they will remember with tears the happy times [of his advent].”

Perhaps we may not be destined to see it, but our children or their children may see it.

A question for Mr. Rashid: 

I have pasted an excerpt from one of your comments, in the thread above.   I couldn’t resist asking this question:

…Where as Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, in accordance with belief and claim of HMGA hold belief that all such Muslims who do not oppose HMGA are members of their movement. Regardless whether they have signed 10 conditions of HMGA ba’it or not. Based on this belief of HMGA, LAM membership is in HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, and LAM mosques are in Millions around the world. Do you have problem with this??? You will have problem with this only, if you question HMGA belief and claim!!!!!!
Remember: LAM members pray in any mosque, where no one opposes HMGA and LAM members offer funeral prayers of Muslims who have not opposed HMGA.
  Comment posted on June 2nd, 2011 at 8:24 am.

Brother what I get from your comment is that the LAM joins hands with anyone who does not oppose Mirza Sahab Sr. Right?
And from reading the thread I got an impression that LAM is in majority, when compared to the QAM. Right?
but the situation at hand clearly indicates that not even a single sunni, or shia or anyone from a foreign sect i.e. non-ahmedi, believes in Mirza sahab Qadiyani. So keeping in mind this fact the total number of LAM is automatically deprived of the sunni, shia population. Right?
So now the question  that further bugs me is that what is the actual LAM and QAM population globally? 

The next question that you may put forward could be that its because of the QAM’s point of view and teachings that Mirza sahab’s reputation has been maligned? If that is the question, why hasn’t the LAM been able to rectify the situation by regaining the stature and position of Mirza Sahib by painting the right picture till today, and why has QAM, as you accuse them, been successful in defaming him or propagating his teachings wrongly? Despite the strength that you guys have, shouldn’t the things have been the other way round?

I would be obliged if we continue thiss debate following the principles of logic and not politics, mud slinging etc.

Jazak Allah. 

@ Rashid

What if Muslims call Mirza sahib (as) Kafir?  What does that make them?  How does the entire country of Pakistan feel??  

The Ulema of Mecca have called Ahmadis as Kafirs.  Does that make them non-Muslim? 

The story is as such:  Mirza sahib had agreed to not call Muslims as Kafirs in 1898.  Hence, he shyed away from it.         

@Tahir Ijaz:
I think Dr. Zahid Aziz gave you a succinct reply.

@Zafar:
Since you have not replied, i take that you agree with me.

The answer is simply that any person or group which calls Kalima-proclaiming Muslims as kafir and expelled from Islam is declared the same by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) We haven’t declared them kafir or passed any judgment on them. Of course if they have done so through not correctly knowing our beliefs, then our duty is to remove their misunderstanding.

King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement

Declaration of Ahmadis (belonging to Qadiani Jamaat and LAM) as non-Muslim by elected political PPP government of Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was immediate consequence of political ambitions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad, and involvement into politics of Qadiani Jamaat at their organizational level in 1970 general elections of Pakistan.

To hide the WRONG decisions and roles of QK3 and QK4, Qadiani followers try their best to detract their critics among fellow Qadianis and others by cultivating baseless reasons for fiasco of Qadiani Khalifas actions. According to these Qadianis, “Ahmadis were declared non-Muslim because Bhutto wanted to be champion of Islam, and to promote his stature after Islamic Summit held in February 1974 in Lahore, and he was under pressure from King Faisal of Saudi Arabia to do so”. The cover up for political decisions of Qadiani Khalifas by their followers are nothing less than BLATANT LIES.

The fact is that King Faisal knew long before beliefs of Ahmadis, especially LAM beliefs. And he considered them full and complete Muslims. This is evident from the fact that he offered prayers behind LAM Imam at Woking Muslim Mission. There are photographs to support this evidence.

In early 1950s when late Maulana Abdul Manan Omar sahib (son of Maulana Noor ud Din sahib) was resident of Rabwah, he spent 6 months as state guest of Saudi King Ibn-Saud. Abdul Manan Omar sahib was honored for his work of codification (Tabweeb) of Hadith book ‘Musnad Ahmad bin Hambal’. During his stay, posters against him appeared in Kabbah mosque, in  Makkah. Posters basically declared him as non-Muslim (nauzubilah). King Faisal at that the time was Governor of Makkah. Instead of giving into demands of Mullah-opponents he resolved issue in another way. On King Faisal advice Imam of Kabbah invited many Mullah of Makkah on a tea. And put them a question: “What you would consider a man who has giving his entire youth for Tabweeb of Musnad, would you consider him a Kafir (non-Muslim)?” In reply guests said, “His hands deserve to be kissed”. Imam of Kabbah introduced Abdul Manan Omar sahib that as the man who did this blessed work. And ALL guests kissed Abdul Manan Omar sahib’s hands.

Followers of Qadiani Khalifas can say blatant lies as they wish, but facts don’t support them. Please go to July 2012 edition, page 7, of ‘The Light’ and see King Faisal photo at Woking Muslim Mission, after praying behind an Ahmadi Imam.

http://ahmadiyya.org/uk/light-jul12.pdf