Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me
Submitted by Ikram.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me
13:03. Verily, in all this there are messages indeed for people who think.
7:179 And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the people —they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. They are as cattle; rather, they are more astray. These are the heedless ones.
The above verses emphasize that any divine system has to pass the test of human intelligence and reasoning, else following such a system would be a blind fellowship of a dogma. By stating these verses Quran exposes itself and Islam to this challenge first and foremost. Thus any institution that is developed in the name of Islam, must pass the secular standards first before any spirituality could be attributed to it.
Contrary to general religious views, secularism is the underpinning of Islam i.e.
“Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man. (3) That it is good to do good. Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.” [George Jacob Holyoake]
For example, humbleness, hard work, love, kindness, sincerity, truthfulness, honesty, accountability etc. are all secular values, which Quran encourages, nurtures and guides to. In doing so, Quran takes the secularism to next level of spirituality and outlines the moral laws governing those values. Not only that, Allah Himself becomes the guarantor of such laws and their outcomes which are both secular and spiritual in their nature e.g. the hard work:
79:1. I call to witness those groups of beings, who perform their duties (towards their Lord and mankind and themselves) with intense zeal and to the best of their capacity,
79:2. And those who exert themselves vigorously,
79:3. And those who steer their course swiftly and skillfully,
79:4. Then those who going foremost greatly excel (all others and attain the topmost positions),
79:5. Then those who administer the affairs in an excellent manner (shall reap the fruit of their striving).
Similarly, to manage an organization, Quran sets the following secular standards:
4:58. Surely, Allâh commands you to make over the trusts (such as the affairs of the state) to those who are competent to it, and that when you judge between the people you should judge with justice. That which Allâh exhorts you to do is best indeed. Allâh is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
In context to the recent posts on this blog, any Divine and his mission has to have the amalgam of both i.e. spiritualism that emanates from the foundations of pristine secularism. HMGA passes these standards with highest honors. Like any decent society or government he established an independent Senate i.e. Anjuman as the governing body to manage the secular aspect of his mission, while he remained the spiritual head. So did Noourddin sahib. [Read details…]
Then came the coup of QK-2, which is no different than that of Zia-ul-Haq or other dictators who claim to be the greatest democrats that were ever born and in doing so trample the very basic institutions that assures the secular goodness of the society i.e. the Senate and all representative bodies. The word of the dictator is final over all decisions and yet the dictators darn the garb of pseudo-democracy and pack the Senate with their cronies and rubber-stampers. While monopolizing the control over all national resources, they make every rule and effort to stay above accountability. It is their utmost effort to convert their rule into a dynasty. For public display, they make speeches in front of rent-a-crowd and in the process do actually become popular to some extent that they may even walk in full view of the public naked, but no one in the audience has the guts to yell “Emperor has no clothes.”
This is what the QK-2 onwards did [-read details…] and that is what the Qadiani members believed and rode the bandwagon for a century. Hopefully they enjoyed the ride of non-accountability, ignominy, extortion, bigotry, ridicule, ostracism, pseudo-representation, pseudo-spirituality, pseudo-piety in the pope-mobile. The first step in recovery is to admit the wrong. Maybe its time for them to stand up to their khalifas and yell at the top of their lungs:
“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
More accrately: its the fifth khalifa i.e. “…fool me fourth (QK-5), shame on me.”
From Amna:
I believe that there is another sign – they offer solutions and bond together the members of society as family. If they had relied on sermons or speeches alone and failed to inspire their society to strive for a common goal then they could not have earned their trust or bonded with them.
eg – prophet Muhammad (pbuh)’s solution to settle the issue of migrants in madina.
the real force seems to be their role, as father, of the society who takes good care of every individual’s needs.
indeed prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is our (spiritual) father.
this spirit (fatherly figure) is missing too. The followers call to the divines but not to the One which these divines called to and they don’t have empathy.
it was indeed shocking to listen to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nQTTDCromw&feature=share
From Rashid:
In youtube video Amir Jamaat-I-Islami Munawar Ahmad asserts that a Muslim woman victim of rape should not complain if she cannot produce four Muslim male witnesses. My question is what if she becomes pregnant and delivers a baby as consequence of that rape, is Amir Jamaat-I-Islami going to take responsibility for “fathering” the baby?
FYI: This Amir Jamaat-I-Islami Munawar Ahmad is by education a law graduate. It is really shocking to hear his logic.
From ikram:
Even though on surface the above two followup posts seem to have digressed from the original purpose of the this thread, but they have not.
Lets start with the video in reference above where the interviewer in Urdu is posing to the Head of Jamaat-i-Islami, Syed Munawar Hussain a simple question about ongoing discussion of Huddud Laws in Pakistan, which are monopolized by the the Mullahs. As a case in point, Mr. Hussain is asked as to how his interpretation of Islam will deal with a woman who has been raped. Mr. Hussain totally misses the question based upon his prejudices about the issue and seems to have no remedy for the victim but slogans of a good society the way he perceives it. When the interviewer tries to draw Mr. Hussain’s attention to the simple secular needs of the victim and the illogical thought process and contradictions of his guest’s reasoning, he gets the pie of fatwas thrown at his face including the label of a non-muslim and being in cahoots with Terry Jones who burnt the Quran.
What this Mullah does not get is the simple difference between (a) someone smearing another person with allegations of a sexual crime vs. (b) victim of a rape crime who is reporting the crime . The whole spectrum of such sexual crimes falls under pure secular issues. Quran too quite simply keeps the whole matter secular i.e.
For (a) Quran sets high standards to prove the allegation in general society i.e.
Whereas if (a) is in a marital setting then God becomes himself the Judge and elevates the secular aspects to moral and spiritual plane:
As far as (b) is concerned, any extra-marital incidence, whether consensual or non-consensual (i.e. rape) is a crime pure and simple:
Now quite logically, it is the non-consensual victim and not the perpetrator who will report the crime to get it investigated. What this mullah is advocating is that if the victim cannot bring witnesses she cannot report the crime and by implication she is self admitting to an sexual act for which she can be punished and according to the interviewer, eighty percent of such victim women then as a double whammy end up in jail. Now imagine that the Islam these Mullahs are interpreting has no room for crime scene investigation that includes DNA sample, medical exam and other forensic aspects. It is the same Mullahs who were in the forefront of declaring everyone a Kafir but themselves are creating and festering a culture of rape and pillage by their myopic vision of morality in general and blindness to message of the Quran in particular.
It is this kind of ignorant clergy and religious leadership be that from Ichra or Rabwah or from other scriptures that Quran woes betides them:
As far as the the victims of such clergy are concerned, they have to stand up to these prophets of ignorace with one voice:
From Zahid Aziz:
Sahih Tirmidhi has two hadith reports under the heading “If a woman is raped” in his Book of Hudud.
“Abdul Jabbar ibn Wail ibn Hujr reported on the authority of his father that a woman was subjected to intercourse against her will in the Prophet’s times. He let her off, but appointed hadd on the man who had assaulted her. But he did not mention if he awarded her a dower.”
“Alqamah ibn Wail Kindi reported on the authority of his father that in the times of Allah’s Messenger (SAW) a woman proceeded to offer salah. On her way, a man caught hold of her and assaulted her sexually, satisfying his desire from her. She shouted. He went away. A man passed by her and she said to him that the man had done with her this and that. Then a group of muhajirs passed by and she told them that the man had done with her this and that. They went, got hold of the man who they thought had molested the woman. They brought him to her and she confirmed that he was the one, so they took him to Allah’s Messenger. When he commanded that he should be stoned to death, the man who had assaulted the woman stood up and said, “0 Messenger of Allah, I was the one who had assaulted her (not he).” Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said (to the woman), “Go away. Indeed, Allah has forgiven you”. And to the man (whom the muhajirs had brought to him) he spoke a kind word, and for the man, who had assaulted her, he gave order to be stoned to death. He said, “He has repented in such a way that if (all) the people of Madinah repented like that then that would have been accepted from them”.”
It is clear from these reports that the female victim is not punished. In the second report the evidence of the woman in identifying the rapist was accepted without her being required to present any other witnesses. In fact, the Holy Prophet even forgave her for pointing out the wrong man!
(Note: Although this report mentions the punishment of stoning, it has been argued that before the revelation of the punishment of flogging in ch. 24, the Holy Prophet followed the punishment of stoning as prescribed in the Jewish law.)
From Amna:
The interviewer should have studied the Quran to nail him.
i wanted to point out that divines bring order and the fake ones, as rumi puts ‘ Allah has not thrown single bone towards them, create disorder.
i have read a very good analysis
“ZINA, RAPE, AND ISLAMIC LAW: AN ISLAMIC LEGAL ANALYSIS OF THE RAPE LAWS IN PAKISTAN
A Position Paper by Karamah: Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights
“The zina and rape laws of Pakistan are the subject of heated debate both inside and outside the Muslim world. Opponents of the Shari’a law have found in the subject an ideal opportunity to attack Islamic law as patriarchal and unjust to women. Some have even argued that Shari’a law, in its entirety, should be abolished. On the other hand, many serious Muslim scholars and activists are themselves troubled by these Pakistani laws regarding zina and rape. They view them as incompatible with basic Qur’anic principles and the prophetic tradition.
http://karamah.org/RESEARCH/AreaofFocus/IslamicLaw/tabid/127/language/en/Default.aspx”
the pdf file can be found under the heading women rights.
From ikram:
It’s never a good idea to change horses mid-stream, but I am willing to change the title of this thread to – MASTERS OF DISASTERS a.k.a. Amirs of Jamaat-i-Islami.
The above video clip of the current head of Jamaat-i-Islami, the discussions and the deductions that followed on this thread only highlight the lack of basic intellect in the school of thought of said political party. It is pure mockery of justice which Rashid succinctly puts as – Amir Jamaat-I-Islami Munawar Ahmad asserts that a Muslim woman victim of rape should not complain if she cannot produce four Muslim male witnesses. My question is what if she becomes pregnant and delivers a baby as consequence of that rape, is Amir Jamaat-I-Islami going to take responsibility for “fathering” the baby?
Below is a similar post about the Founder of Jamaat-i-Islami which was posted a while ago on Pak Tea House. Enjoy it!
—-
Maudoudi Sahib – intellectual sampler:
A very senior civil law expert (now deceased) quoted me an incidence. In early days of Zia ul Haq, when he was trying to create a theological state and introduce so called Islamic Justice System, Mr. Maudoudi addressed the Supreme Court Bar Association and lectured them on Islamic Justice. (In those days, Supreme Court used to be temporarily housed in East Pakistan House, Rawalpindi Saddar)
This lawyer, posed Mr. Maudoudi a theoretical scenario:
Suppose a case is reported to police that Mr. X killed Mr. Y and drowned his dead body in river. There are A, B, C eye witnesses to the whole scene. How will Islamic Justice handle such a situation?
Mr. Maudoudi replied: Simply take the statements of A, B and C under oath. If proven, hang X. This reduces court time and cost and dispenses with early community based justice.
Then this lawyer extended the scenario: Three months later, the victim Y, just walks back into community life. Now you have already hanged Mr. X, while Y is still living.
Mr Moudoudi had no answer, but only embarrassment.
The said lawyer then explained to Mr. Moudoudi that any honest and fair system is Islamic System. Under British Torts, a murder case cannot be registered, unless dead body is found first.
This narrative goes a long way to explain the intellectual level of Mr. Moudoudi and his self claimed authority on different matters. Such kind of superficiality and backwardness is also reflected in his translation of the Quran.
I declare under oath, that the above story as narrated to me is true to best of my recall.
————-
With a smile and a smirk I repeat:
“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
From Zahid Aziz:
In a blasphemy case, the Muslim complainant accused a Christian boy of writing insulting comments about the Holy Prophet (on a piece of paper or on the wall of a mosque) which he (the complainant) had deleted/destroyed due to their insulting nature, and he could not repeat them either because he would be repeating the insult! So here are witnesses to a crime who say they can’t tell what they saw, nor does the evidence exist anymore, but still the accused is charged with a crime carrying the death penalty.
Then we have cases every year at Ramadan and Eid of the “eye witness” evidence that a Muslim saw the new moon. Yet the time and location of the observation, and the reported position of the crescent, make it an astronomical impossibility, and the observation is rejected by all Muslim organisations who possess the requisite knowledge.
From ikram:
Amna remarked above about Mr. Munawar Hussain, the Amir of Jamaat Islami – “The interviewer should have studied the Quran to nail him.”
Her observation may be confidently extended to general Muslims as well, to which Maulana Muhammad Ali comments as follows in his revised 2010 edition of Quran – Translation and Commentary:
2:78. And some of them are illiterate; they do not know the Book except (from) hearsay, and they only conjecture.
Footnote: The Jewish masses [-originally the Muslim followers of Moses, because Moses was a Muslim prophet] had no access to their own sacred books which were known only to their learned men, and therefore their religious ideas were based only on stories which they knew from hearsay. The same is to a very large extent true of the Muslims of our day. In the early days of Islam, every individual Muslim, man as well as woman, sought light direct from the Quran. Not so the Muslims in this age who depend entirely on their learned men. They do read the Quran but look upon mere recitation as a meritorious deed without trying to learn what it says, and then act upon it.
[Note: the clarifying statement in square brackets above has been added by me]
From Amna:
“And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four
witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject
their testimony ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- Unless they
repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful.” (24: 4-5)
according to him a ‘raped’ woman is not ‘chaste’ and she has to PROVE she was raped by providing ‘witnesses’. probably he has never heard of forensic evidence. the interviewer tells him that such a crime never happen in ‘public’. he is suggesting that if she cant prove then she is punished for ‘adultery’. in 2003 80% women were in jail for reporting ‘rape’ because they could not prove it. he says – its a resolve and nothing wrong with it.
the islam they talk about 24\7 and its punishments – its them who have to prove their allegation against a woman by providing witnesses against her – gender of witness is not mentioned in verse. anyone, who put those raped women in jail, should get the punishment if they can’t prove she was guilty of adultery. besides should not the male partner be subjected to punishment as well? when they refused their claim of ‘rape’ why they did not ask her to name the man with whom she committed the crime?
they r retards.
From Rashid:
Original post in this thread by Ikram was posted on Pak Tea House blog. It got the following comment:
Rex Minor says:
July 11, 2011 at 6:22 am
@fellow Pakistani 001
Could you please tell us the arabic translation of the word secular and if not in Pakistani language; could you also be kind enough to tell us if you speak and write arbic language and are familiar with the arabian culture? Your quotations and interpretation of Quraan verses in english text are extraordinary and amazing!
Rex Minor
http://pakteahouse.net/2011/07/10/partition-of-sudan-learning-from-india-and-pakistan/
From Amna:
2:132And the same did Abraham enjoin on his sons, and (so did) Jacob: O my sons, surely Allah has chosen for you (this) religion, so die not unless you are submitting ones.
One experiences the importance of these words by making a choice against one’s conscience and learns how difficult it is to challenge it. It is not easy to live with any sort of burden. This advice, to stay away from harm, can only come from those, in whom, this state was so deeply rooted. Not only they knew that its their death to depart from it but they strived in the best manner to teach others its importance. hence … so die not unless you are submitting ones.
live in a manner that you can stand tall in front of Him and can look right into Him rather than standing with your head down and depriving yourself from seeing Him.
when we compare their example with the present ‘teachers’ it is evident that neither they know the importance to stick to the guidance of their conscience but they also lack how to impart this knowledge to others.
From ikram:
@ Rashid
The following translations were used at the top of this thread:
13:03 – Muhammad Asad
7:179 – Muhammad Ali – Zahid Aziz
79:1-5 – Nooruddin
4:58 – Nooruddin
P.S. You may redirect Rex Minor to this site if he has any further comments or questions.
From ikram:
While staying on the subject of Mullahs and their myopia, the words of Maulana Muhammad Ali are quite analytical and prophetic about Mullahs in his book TRUE CONCEPTION OF AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT e.g. the following excerpts:
Islam is an intellectual and scientific religion…As the principles of Islam are in harmony with man’s intellect, therefore it has been enjoined on its followers that they should also apply their intellect for understanding the details of these principles. This is indeed what is called the exercise of judgement (ijtiha¯d). Islam is thus a rational religion in respect to its principles and its details. For this reason there was no priestcraft, monkhood or papacy in Islam, but unfortunately in imitation of other religions a privileged class of the Mullas also came into existence among Muslims. If the use of intellect was encouraged, the authority of such people could not be maintained, therefore they prohibited the use of intellect in religious matters. Anybody who raised an intellectual question was dubbed as ka¯fir and atheist. In the progress of Islam this again was a great obstacle which was removed by Ahmadiyyat. Thus it was shown to the world that Islam was, in fact, the rational religion and its teachings and beliefs were open to intellectual criticism.[pg 32]
New light about interpreting the Qur’a¯n … The most beneficial work in this respect done by Ahmadiyyat was to interpret the Qur’a¯n in a scientific and literary manner. There was a time when ordinary matters mentioned in the Qur’a¯n were interpreted by fanciful and imaginary stories with the result that the new generation of Muslims having modern outlook on life thought such fantastic stories to be part of the Qur’a¯n and expressed their disgust at them and at the book which incorporated them. The ‘ulama¯’, instead of removing such doubts, started issuing fatwa¯s of kufr (verdicts of heresy) against everybody who differed with them even in minor details of religion or who did not accept the stories of the Qur’a¯nic commentators as next to the word of God or who gave vent to any objection against religion. At this crucial moment Ahmadiyyat without caring for the fatwa¯s of kufr fought against the ignorance and the narrow-mindedness of the ‘ulama¯’. It showed to the world that the Qur’a¯n is clear of all such spurious matter and that scientific research in different spheres of knowledge, in fact, does not go against the spirit of religion. Religion was not subjugated by science, as was thought by the educated Muslims of the age, rather science was to follow the higher values of spiritual life to ensure real peace in the world. [pg 34]
—
Munawar Hussain and Maududi Sahibs are the current and former Amirs of Jamaat-i-Islami. So was Maulana Muhammad Ali (MMA) the Amir of LAM. The writings, works, intellect and vision of MMA in comparison to these Amirs inexorably bring to mind the verse by Allama Iqbal:
Parwaz hay dau-no key aik he fiza mein
Both fly the same skies, yet
Kargis ka jahan aur hay, Shaheen ka jahan aur
Vulture lives in a different world from that of the Eagle.