Comments on Mirza Nasir Ahmad’s answers at the National Assembly, 1974
The comments below should be confined to the subject mentioned above.
December 25th, 2012
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From Rashid Jahangiri:
Qadianis Please Provide Reference to QK3 Claim
On page 135 (pdf file page 79)
Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad while testifying in 1974 National Assembly made claim that “You (HMGA) said, do not call me/ address me with simple word ‘Nabi’” and then QK3 went on to imply that he (HMGA) is to be called/ addressed with word ‘Ummati-Nabi’.
This LAM blog has posts to confirm that followers of Qadiani Khalifas 2,3,4,5 have repeatedly failed to provide a single reference where HMGA used word “ummati-nabi” for himself.
In this post I am challenging Qadianis to provide reference from HMGA writings that support QK3 statement: “You (HMGA) said, do not call me/ address me with simple word ‘Nabi’”.
If Qadianis or their supporters the ex-Qadiani opponents of LAM fail to provide any such reference then readers should know that QK3 MISLED THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Meaning of word ‘Kafir’ According to QK3
On page 140 (pdf file page 82) Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad said that according to the word ‘Kafir/Kufar’ they use for Muslims does not mean they are out of circle of Islam.
If this is what Qadianis honestly believe and QK3 did not change his belief regarding ‘Kafir/Kufar’ of Kalima-Shahada reciters under fear in National Assembly, then please answer: Why you Qadianis do not offer prayer behind Lahori-Ahmadi Imam and offer Janazah (funeral) prayer of Lahori-Ahmadi?
(For Readers Information: My Qadiani relatives while inside our home in Pakistan did NOT offer Janazah prayer of my late father, a Lahori-Ahmadi).
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Calls Muslims as Kafir
On page 148 (pdf file page 86) Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad calls those Muslims who do not accept HMGA was “Ummati-Nabi” are Kafir (nauzubilah).
My Question to Qadianis is if this is what your belief is then why it makes you upset when Pakistanis declared you Kafir?
(For Readers Info: Lahori-Ahmadi do NOT call any reciter of Kalima-Shahada as Kafir).
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Political Kafir?
Starting on NA Proceedings page 155 (pdf file page 89) QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad gets into thick-soup for defending stupid statements of his father QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and paternal uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad (the so called “Qamar-ul-Anbiyya” –Moon of Prophets). There QK3 introduced a new term ‘POLITICAL (Siasi) Kafir (non-Muslim)’.
On NA Proceedings page 160 (pdf file page 92):
Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar asked QK3: If you call Muslims only Political-Kafir and NOT Religious/Islami-Kafir then why you don’t offer prayer behind a Political-Kafir???
(For Readers Information: Qadianis do not offer prayer behind a Lahori-Ahmadi).
Munir Inquiry Report Finding (Page 199)
On NA Proceedings page 166 (pdf page 95) Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar shows Munir Inquiry Report finding to QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Based on your (Qadiani) writings Munir Inquiry Commission came to the conclusion you (Qadianis) do consider other Muslims OUTSIDE the pale of Islam.
My Question to Qadianis is that when you people in justification of using word Kafir for Muslims produce QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad explanation given in Munir Inquiry Commission (on internet, in print and in verbal communications) why you Qadianis LEAVE OUT Munir Inquiry Commission comment: “This is very different from saying that they (Muslims) are Musalman (Urdu word for Muslims) and not Kafirs” (Reference Munir Report page 199)???
QK3 Shows Ignorance about QK2 Famous Quote from Anwar-i-Khilafat.
QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad in his famous book Anwar-i-Khilafat from pages 124 to 127 wrote:
“I say there shall be thousands of prophets”
“I say even now there can be a prophet”
“Even if someone placed a sword on my neck and ask me to say there cannot be any nabi after Rasul Allah, I i will say you’re a liar and nabi can come after and they will come.”
On NA Proceedings page 176 (pdf page 100), Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar produced the famous quote of QK3 father QK2 “Even if someone placed a sword on my neck and ask me to say there cannot be any nabi after Rasul Allah, I i will say you’re a liar and nabi can come after and they will come.” In response QK3 was making excuses that he needs to read the quote, reference and context only then will be able to answer.
My Question to Qadianis: Why your QK3 was shying away from supporting above quote of his father???
Qadiani readers do you still need proof that your QK2 beliefs and teachings are indefensible and always land his followers into trouble???
QK3 shying away from QK2 famous quote in Aina-e-Sidaqat.
On NA Proceedings page 177 (pdf file page 100) Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar asked QK3 opinion about his father famous quote from QK2 book ‘Aina-e-Sidaqat’ page 35: “All muslims who are not included in the bai`at of Maseeh Mauood, even if they have not heard the name of Maseeh Mauood, they are Kafir and out of the fold of Islam. I admit that these are my beliefs.” In response QK3 said, “I can only answer after looking at the book”.
Qadiani readers, do you ever wonder why your QK3 was behaving as complete ignorant of his father QK2 beliefs and writings in National Assembly???
Alfazal quote June 26-29, 1922
On NA Proceedings page 183 (pdf file page 103), Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar produced Qadiani famous newspaper Alfazal issue June 26-29, 1922 quote: “Since we (Qadianis) believe Mirza sahib was nabi and non-Ahmadi do not accept him as nabi, and according to teachings of Holy Quran denier of any prophet is Kafir, so non-Ahmadi are Kafir”. Instead of giving a clear cut opinion, QK3 is showing ignorance about quote.
Qadiani readers, your QK3 was running away, instead of giving a clear cut opinion. Could anyone of you kindly ask your current Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad to give his opinion?
Anwar-i-Khilafat page 90 quote.
On NA Proceedings page 186 (pdf file page 105) Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar asked QK3 to give his opinion on his father teachings published in his (QK2) famous book ‘Anwar-i-Khilafat’ page 90: “It is our (Qadianis) duty to not consider non-Ahmadis (non-Qadianis) as Muslims, and do not offer prayer behind them. This is because they are denier of one prophet of Allah Tahala”. QK3 instead of giving his opinion tries to wiggle out.
Question to Qadiani readers: Why your QK3 was making lame excuses to wriggle out of clear teachings of his father???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK2 Equates Muslims to Christians
NA Proceedings page 219 (pdf file page 123):
Attorney General (AG) Yahya Bakhtiar provided a QK2 quote from ‘Review of Religion page 129’ in which Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad equated Muslims to Christians, and his followers to Muslims. After that AG as asked QK3: Why you people (Qadianis) allow Qadiani males to mary Muslim females, but NOT Qadiani females to Muslim males?
Question to Qadianis: Do you think, this kind of Qadiani attitude towards Muslims is fair?
Qadiani Dead Sea Scrolls
Christians are in habit of finding “lost pages of Bible” to make amendments in their teachings at the time of the need.
NA Proceedings page 236-237 (Pdf file page 132):
QK3 gives quote of QK2 in Munir Inquiry Commission where he said, “Now we have found a fatwa of founder of movement [HMGA] in light of which we can make amendment in previous fatwa”.
Question: Dear Qadianis, your QK2 equates Muslims to Christians but himself acts on traditions of Christians. Do you agree with his double talk?
QK3 Calls Lahori-Ahmadis as Kafir (Nauzubilah)
NA Proceedings page 240 (pdf page 135):
In reply to Attorney General (AG) Yahya Bakhtiar question, QK3 replies: They [Lahori-Ahmadis] are in category of Kafirs. They [Lahori-Ahmadis] are out of circle of Islam.
QK3 acknowledges that Lahori-Ahmadis (unlike non-Ahmadi Muslims) did NOT issue fatwa of Kufar towards Qadianis, still he considers them Kafir, because they did not do bait (pledge) of [Qadiani] Khilafat or accepted “all claims” [of HMGA].
By his argument AG proved to QK3 that Qadianis would have considered non-Ahmadi Muslims as Kafir even if they had not issued fatwa against them, just the way Lahori-Ahmadi are declared Kafir by Qadianis.
Questions for Qadianis: I am sure if Qadianis were in majority in Pakistan they would have treated Muslims, if not worse at least the way they are treated since 1974 by first declaring them Kafir. Qadianis friends do you disagree with me?
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Qadiani Khalifa Modas Operandi
NA Proceedings page 262 (pdf file page 145):
Attorney General provided Qadiani Newspaper Alfazal October 28, 1952 quote, in which author equated (founder of Pakistan) Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah to uncle of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS Abu Talib [who did not accept Islam] and justified Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan (then foreign minister of Pakistan) decision to NOT offer Janazah (funeral prayer) of Quaid-i-Azam.
This is kind of teaching Qadianis are taught. But when QK3 (like his father QK2) got into grind in a court of law said, “this is wrong and I am hurt by it”.
Question to Qadianis: How many times your Qadiani Khalifa needs to be put into a grind to make him speak the truth???
QK3 definition of Murtad (apostate)
NA Proceedings page 273 (pdf page 150):
QK3 states, “in my opinion a person is murtad if that person himself announces that he leaves Islam and has no relation with Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. Only he is murtad in terminology of Holy Quran. Not the one on whom a fatwa (religious decree) is issued”.
Question for Qadianis: Why Qadianis call former members of their jamaat who left Qadiani organization (e.g. members of Haqiqat Passand Party) as murtad???
(For readers information: Haqiqat Passand Party members religion was Islam. They held their relation with Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS till last breaths of their lives. They even believed HMGA was genuine Mamur-min-Allah).
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Ashamed of Book Authored by Qk2
NA Proceedings page 287 (pdf file page 157):
Attorney General (AG) [perhaps by mistake] calls ‘Aina-e-Sidaqat’ as HMGA publication [In fact this book is authored by QK3 father QK2, i.e. Mirza Mahmud Ahmad].
QK3 does NOT correct AG, and instead of saying that this book was actually authored by his father, he says: There is NO such book by HMGA. QK3 tries his best to put responsibility on AG of finding out who authored [stupid book] ‘Aina-e-Sidaqat’.
Question for Qadianis: Why do you think your QK3 was ashamed of acknowledging rather proudly putting forward that (STUPID BOOK) like ‘Aina-e-Sidaqat’ was authored by QK2???
From Zahid Aziz:
The AG then went to suggest that the book would have been written by “Bashir-ud-Din sahib”.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad replied: “No. If it is by him, you should tell us. Who wrote it? Who is the author?”
This is absolutely astonishing! The answer to this question was simply: Yes.
Then AG mentions “page 35” of Ainah-i Sadaqat. This page 35 was mentioned so often, in discussions stretching over decades, that anyone familiar with the issues would know immediately what AG was referring to.
The same book and page were mentioned at the Munir court of enquiry in the questioning of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad in 1954. This can be seen in the Qadiani Jamaat’s own booklet ‘Tehqiqati Adalat main Hazrat Imam Jamaat Ahmadiyya ka bayan’, p. 14. (See this link.)
Didn’t Mirza Nasir Ahmad do even a little homework before appearing?
From T. Ijaz:
We never called Muslims Kafirs..this is propoganda by Muhammad Ali and his friends. Muhammad Ali knew that those who called the PM (As) a Kafir were Kafirs, that was obvious, and that was the underlying idea in all of the writings on the matter by the PM (as) and Musleh Maud (ra).
However, Muhammad Ali made it a big issue and declared it as the underlying reason as to why he left.
From Zahid Aziz:
But Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote that what Maulana Muhammad Ali attibuted to him was correct. In The Truth about the Split, English translation of his well known book Ainah-i Sadaqat, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote:
He “readily admits” that the beliefs Maulana Muhammad Ali attributed to him were the beliefs he held.
This passage is, in fact, what the Attorney General was referring to when he mentioned page 35 of Ainah-i Sadaqat to Mirza Nasir Ahmad.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Refusal to Acknowledge his Uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad’s Quote
NA Proceedings page 407 (pdf file page 218):
AG gave a lengthy quote from book ‘Kalima-tul-Fasal’ by QK3 paternal Uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad [he is known as “Qamar-ul-Anbiyya” i.e. ‘Moon of Prophets’, by Qadianis]. This quote is also reproduced in ‘Review of Religions’ Volume 3, Page 126. The gist of quote is that HMGA under Divine orders did NOT consider his Muslim deniers as Muslims (Nauzubilah).
Question to Qadianis: Why QK3 was having difficulty acknowledging divisive quotes from (stupid) book authored by his uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad???
From Zahid Aziz:
Regarding “QK3 Refusal to Acknowledge his Uncle Mirza Bashir Ahmad’s Quote”, the reference mentioned by the AG was not Volume 3, Page 126 of Review of Religions. He literally said:
“Volume, page 3, then further 126.”
What he was referring to was issue number 3 of 1915. (Volume 3 of ROR would be from the year 1904.)
This is easily confirmed from the Qadiani Jamaat website where this writing is published at this link.
You can read page 126-127 (pdf file pages 37-38), where Mirza Bashir Ahmad writes that when the Promised Messiah described other Muslims as “Muslims” he didn’t mean that he regarded them as Muslims but as those claiming to be Muslims. MBA writes on p. 127:
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Contradicts QK2
1974 NA Proceedings page 451 (pdf file page 240):
QK2 in his INFAMOUS teachings to his Qadiani followers has instructed them NOT to offer Janaza (funeral prayer) of an INFANT CHILD of a Muslim, even though he has NOT even heard name of HMGA, because he is child of a non-Muslim (i.e. Kafir) parents. QK3 realizing how much trouble his father QK2 has created, tried to get out of QUICKSAND, by contradicting teachings of Qadianis “Musleh-Mahud”, said even a FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD who has NOT heard name of HMGA is a MUSLIM, as long as his parents are Muslims.
Question for Qadianis: Do you think it is right for you to accept QK3 teaching and reject QK2 teaching, who is considered much superior, so called “Musleh-Mahud” by you people???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Somersault
1974 NA Proceedings page 406 (pdf file page 218):
QK3 says: “A person who does NOT accept Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as prophet, but he associates himself to Last of Prophets Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, NO BODY CAN CALL HIM A NON-MUSLIM (i.e. Kafir)”
Further QK3 says: “I categorically say ANY person who associates himself with Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS is a MUSLIM, and NO BODY HAS RIGHT TO DECLARE HIM A NON-MUSLIM (i.e. Kafir)”!
Question for Qadianis: All your lives you received Qadiani teachings, and practiced them too, that Non-(Qadiani) Ahmadis are NON-MUSLIM. Given your lifelong learning, what opinion you hold for QK3, who in court of law (like his father QK2) makes BLATANT SOMERSAULT in matter of his fundamental belief???
(It is like Christians saying that Jesus was NOT son of God, or he is physically dead).
QK3 Declares (Qadiani) Ahmadis are Kafir
1974 NA Proceedings page 403 (pdf file page 215):
In order to do damage control (initially damage done by QK2), QK3 says that when he uses word Kafir for Muslims, he means they are ‘Sinner Muslims’ [Please Note: This change in Kafir definition was also quoted by Attorney General while cross examining Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement witness Abdul Manan Omar sahib. Reference: NA Proceedings page 1699 and 1700]. AG then hits back QK3 explanation and asks him, “Are there such Kafir among (Qadiani) Ahmadis?” QK3 answers: YES!
Question for Qadianis: If you people offer Janaza (funeral prayer) of your fellow “Qadiani Kafirs” then why don’t you offer Janaza of “Muslim Kafirs”???
(For readers’ information: Qadianis do NOT offer Janaza of even Lahori-Ahmadis).
From T. Ijaz:
Musleh Maud (ra) was writing to an Ahmadi audience. As you know, as early as 1891, the Ulema of India had declared the PM (As) as a Kafir. This meant that any Muslim in India had to agree with this Fatwa.
Based on this Fatwa, not only us, but also Lahori’s considered all Muslims in India as Kafirs. I’m sure you have read the famous hadith in Bukhari.
Most Muslims in India were illiterate in those days, they followed the Fatwas of their ulema.
This is what Musleh Maud (ra) was referring to. Lahoris used this gray area as a point to wedge differences. When really…the issue was on the ascendency of Hazrat Musleh Maud to the office of Khalifa.
The quote from Al-Hilal is obviously propaganda distributed by Lahoris. They were fast friends with leading Muslims.
From ikram:
@ T. Ijaz: clearly we are comparing apples and oranges. The said Hadith lays out a principle of someone knowingly calling another muslim a ‘kafir’. But, QK2 even declared ‘kafirs’ who have not even heard of HMGA to accept his claim and never called HMGA a ‘kafir’. By the standards of the same Hadith, is QK2 then not a ‘kafir’, himself? Seems Musleh Maud needed a basic schooling, if nothing else, at least in common sense that Qadianis overlook. QK2 and his blind followers fall on their own sword. Healer, heal thyself first!
From Zahid Aziz:
In response to T. Ijaz, the quotation I gave above from The Truth about the Split by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad (see link) shows clearly that the discussion by the author is not about those Muslims who called the Promised Messiah as kafir but about all Muslims “who have not entered into his bai`at, wherever they may be”.
As regards his comment that “Lahoris used this gray area as a point to wedge differences”, please read again The Truth about the Split and see Mirza Mahmud Ahmad’s own account of his pre-split article of 1911 declaring all other Muslims as kafir.
Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din at that stage tried to bridge the difference by saying that the article would be unobjectionable if by “kafir” in it is taken to mean “denier of Promised Messiah” and not “denier of Islam”. Mirza Mahmud Ahmad rejected this interpretation of his article and wrote that this is:
So if Khwaja gives this interpretation, it is senseless, but if decades later members of the Qadiani Jama`at resort to the same interpretation it becomes highly rational!
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad then goes on to explain his article as follows:
He says that in his article he gave quotations from the Promised Messiah and:
The Qadiani Jamaat has itself been promoting this book by publishing a new edition and translation of it, and making it available in audio to increase coverage further. By a supreme irony of history, it is now Lahoris who are presenting Mirza Mahmud Ahmad’s The Truth about the Split as being actually the truth as regards his religious beliefs.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Oxymoronic Statement
197 NA Proceedings page 530 (pdf page 281):
QK3 quotes HMGA book ‘Izala Auham’ page 425 to prove that Ummati can NOT be one who has been given prophethood. QK3 quotes, “Sahib-e-Nabuwat Nama Hargiz Ummati Nahein Hota” (Translation: A person who is granted prophethood can NEVER be follower of preceding prophet). Then QK3 tries to justify HMGA “prophethood” while being Ummati of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. Please also note: QK3 on page 531 says that Eisa AS was NOT Ummati-Nabi of Musa AS.
Question for Qadianis: Do you realize QK3 had oxymoronic fundamental belief???
Qadianis like Christians always invent an exception in their reasoning whenever they find themselves trapped in trap set by themselves.
QK3 NOT Aware of his father QK2 belief
1974 NA Proceedings page 640 (pdf file page 336):
AG, after providing a quote from Qadiani elder Maulana Abu-Al-Atta (also known by nick name among Qadianis as ‘Maulvi Pawa’. Pawa means bedpost.) book asks QK3: Can other prophets beside Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib come after Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS? QK3 replies: “We hold belief that among Ummat of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS only that Ummati-Nabi can come about whom Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS made prophecy”. QK3 further replies: “According to our belief that prophecy is only about Mahdi and Messiah [i.e. HMGA].
Reading dialogue on this issue makes it quite evident that either QK3 had not read book ‘Anwar-e-Khilafat’ by his father QK2, or he was simply changing Qadiani belief without announcing it. (Please note: QK2 in Anwar-e-Khilafat wrote that thousands of new prophets will come after Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS).
Question for Qadianis: What do you think: QK3 was an honest ignorant person or a cunning deceiver???
QK3 Shocked AG
1974 NA Proceedings page 661 (pdf file page 346):
AG question: Can there be prophets after Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS?
QK3 answer: “Last prophet is Muhammad SAWS. No prophet can come after him.”
AG question: “What about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Was he not a prophet?”
QK3 answer: “He was NOT after (Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS).”
AG reaction: “What?”
Question for Qadianis: Are you too shocked like AG to hear from horse’s mouth i.e. QK3 that HMGA was NOT a prophet after Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS???
QK3 could NOT justify benefit of “prophethood” of HMGA.
1974 NA Proceedings page 703 (pdf file page 369):
On subject of issue of “prophethood” of HMGA:
AG question: If Mirza sahib did not change Shariat of Holy Prophet Muhammad, and he is part of Ummat-e-Muhammadi (member of Ummat of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS), and he came only for purpose to do job that he could have done in capacity of Auliya (saints), Mohudus (recipient of divine communication), Buzurg (elder) in light of divine guidance, then what was benefit of his “prophethood”? What Allah wanted him to accomplish?
QK3 answer: You see this is our belief that Allah has used word ‘prophet for him’. Based on this belief how I can dare to ask why Allah used such word. Only Allah can answer this question.
To me it is obvious QK3 took logic out of Christian’s book of reasoning, that since Jesus was son of God as God said Jesus is my son, so how I can question that?
Question for Qadianis: Lahori-Ahmadis hold belief that HMGA accomplished his all objectives by being only a Mujjadid (reformer of 14th Islamic Century). Could you please point out a single objective that HMGA could not have accomplished by being only a Mujaddid, and he was able to do so only by being a “prophet”, or you also take Christians approach in answering such question???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Escape Hatch
1974 NA Proceedings page 810 (pdf file page 424):
QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and members of Khalifa family had/have the habit of writing and teachings their followers texts that would injure feelings of Muslims. Writings that would provoke Muslims to act against Qadianis. And when time came for QK2 and his son QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad TO TAKE A BULLET (reaction to their actions) shot at them by Muslims, without wasting a second, and without any hesitation they blamed and denounced their cheap and easily dispensable DARBARI (translation: Courtiers).
In July 15, 1952 Al-Fazal (Qadiani Urdu newspaper) an editorial was written with title ‘KHUNI MULLA’ (translation: Bloody Mulla). In National Assembly proceedings Attorney General as an example of what kind of FIERY, HATEFUL, PROVOCATIVE, INJURIOUS publications are produced by Qadiani Organization, produced the said editorial. QK3 realized he was against the wall, and it is time for him to take the bullet for indoctrination he and his father imparted to their followers. So, instead of taking a bullet like a brave man, he looked for escape hatch. And he found it. He found it in condemning and denouncing the editorial and its writer. QK3 only condemned the editorial in secrecy, in-camera NA proceedings. Otherwise such indoctrination of Qadianis continues on even today.
Question for Qadinis: Don’t you think it was such kind of writings published by Qadiani Organization that became instrumental in putting QK3 in a vise (i.e. witness stand) and grind in NA???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3: Alfazal is NOT Ahmadiyya (Qadiani) Jamaat Newspaper.
1974 NA Proceedings page 886 (pdf file page 463):
QK3 very painfully realized that quotes from AlFazal newspaper keep on pushing him deep into thick soup. So he decided to take a stand. Following is dialogue between QK3 and Attorney General (AG):
QK3: Alfazal is NOT voice of (Qadiani) Jamaat.
AG: If this is the case then all issues are resolved.
QK3: It (Alfazal) is NOT of (Qadiani) Jamaat.
AG: Okay.
QK3: Then all issues are resolved.
AG: Then it (Alfazal) is organ of which Jamaat?
QK3: What?
AG: Alfazal is organ of which Jamaat?
QK3: It is NOT organ of ANY Jamaat!
Question for Qadianis: For almost a century QK2 and his successor Khalifas have been instructing their followers to purchase/subscribe Alfazal newspaper. And you all grew up paying for it and reading it. Do you think you have been looted and financially defrauded by someone who convinced you to buy “snake oil” i.e. to purchase Alfazal convincing you that it is your Qadiani organization official newspaper, or it was one another effort of QK3 to wiggle out of difficult situation by BLATANTLY LYING???
In early 1980s I offered Juma (Friday) prayers on occasion of annual Jalsa (conference) of Qadianis, in Rabwah, behind Mirza Nasir Ahmad. Had I known then what a low class liar he was, I would have not offered my prayers behind him. I regret it.
From Zahid Aziz:
When Mirza Mahmud Ahmad appeared before the Munir Court of Enquiry in 1954, he was asked about Al-Fazl, and certain extracts from his own speeches in Al-Fazl were put to him. The questions and answers may be read in the Qadiani Jama‘at own Urdu publication Tahqiqi ‘adalat men Hazrat Imam Jama‘at Ahmadiyya Ka Bayan (available online at this link).
“Question: What is the position of Al-Fazl in your Jamaat and what is your connection with it?”
“Answer: It is true that I established this newspaper but two or three years later I cut off my connection with it, probably in 1915 or 1916. Now it belongs to Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya.” (p. 13, 14)
Regarding a speech in Al-Fazl dated 21 August 1917, he replied:
“When this statement was published I did not have a diarist. So I cannot say for sure that my words were reported correctly or not.” (p. 16)
In another answer he said:
“In Al-Fazl dated 5 April 1947 my speech has not been reported correctly. The correct report was published in Al-Fazl dated 12 April 1947.” (p. 18)
When a passage was quoted from Al-Fazl dated 16 May 1947, he replied:
“No. I most certainly did not express my views in these words. What I said has been misrepresented to a great extent. … My real views on this matter were published in Al-Fazl dated 21 May 1947.” (p. 19)
He was then asked: “Did you issue a correction to what was published in Al-Fazl of 16 May 1947?” He replied:
“What was published in it was, in effect, corrected by Al-Fazl of 21 May 1947.” (p. 19)
Notice here he says “in effect” or “in practice” (`aml-an), and not that it was directly corrected.
Asked whether he had said certain words reported in Tashhiz-ul-Azhan of June 1919 (a magazine founded by him), he replied:
“No. The diarist was inexperienced. What I said was misrepresented by him.” (p. 22)
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Condemns One of his own – Muhammad Hashim Bengali.
1974 NA Proceedings page 963 (pdf page 501):
Qadiani organization member Muhammad Hashim Bengali translated into English one of the Qadiani publication and published it under title “Ahmadiyyat or True Islam” in 1924. It was officially published in Qadian. (Ref: NA proceedings page 968).
In NA trial AG presented questionable quotes from this book. QK3 seeing another problem replied:
QK3: This was NOT published on behalf of our (Qadiani) Jamaat. This was an act of individual. (Ref: NA proceedings page 966).
Question for Qadianis: Do you people realize how DIRT CHEAP and EASILY DISPENSABLE you people are in opinion of your Qadiani Khalifas, whom you give your life earnings???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
AlFazal proves: Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was Against Creation of Pakistan.
Qadianis claim that it was their missionary in England Abdul Rahim Dard who convinced Muhammad Ali Jinnah (founder of Pakistan) to return to India and fight for Independent country for Muslims i.e. Pakistan. Let’s check it against historical references quoted in Qadiani newspaper AlFazal.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1005 (pdf file page 524):
AG: Provided QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad quote from Munir Inquiry Commission Report, and references from AlFazal which conclude:
“If Pakistan is created, even then we will try this division ends. Division of India ends”. AlFazal Refernces: April 15, 1947; May 17, 1947; April 12, 1947; June 17, 1947. According to June 17, 1947 quote QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad prays: “At the end I pray. Oh my Lord! Give intelligence to my countrymen, first this country does NOT divide; and if it does divide then it divides in a way that roads to its reunification remain open”.
QK3: Until I see (AlFazal June 17, 1947) quote I cannot comment.
AG: [Reported in English] “This is address after 3rd June when Pakistan was accepted. Muslim League had achieved a victory; you are NOT sharing that victory; you are NOT sharing that hope. You say, “May Allah reunites the country””.
Question for Qadianis: Who do you think was right and who do you believe QK2 in his prayer or Abdul Rahim Dard in his claim???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Justice Munir on Separate Qadiani Representation in Boundary Commission.
Background information:
Qadianis propagate that their QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his followers were for creation of Pakistan and never had any ulterior motives. Facts do NOT support Qadiani claims.
1-QK2 speeches published in Qadiani newspaper Al-Fazal support that he was NOT in support of Pakistan, and always wished the United India does NOT divide.
2-Even after Qadianis had migrated Pakistan, their QK2 had instructed his followers to NOT to file claims for evacuee properties. The reason he gave was that “we will move back to Qadian, India”. Haqiqat Passand Party reproduced QK2 quotes with references in their literature.
3-QK2 representative made separate representation in Boundary Commission, responsible for territorial divisions of British India. Justice Muhammad Munir wrote an article in Pakistan times that highlights the ulterior motives of QK2 in his so called support of Pakistan. Read below:
1974 NA Proceedings page 1267 (pdf file page 658):
Pakistan Times. June 24, 1964
“Days I remember” by Justice Muhammad Munir
“In connection with this part of the case, I cannot reframe from mentioning an extremely unfortunate circumstance. I have never under stood why the Ahmadis [i.e. Qadianis—followers of QK2] submitted a separate representation. The need for such representation could arise only if the Ahmadis [Qadianis] did not agree with the Muslim League’s case-it self a regrettable possibility. Perhaps, they intended to reinforce the Muslim League’s case; but in doing so, the game the facts and figures for different parts of Gash Shankar, thus giving prominence to the fact that, in the areas between the river Bein and the river Basantar, the non-Muslims Constituted a majority and providing argument for the Contention that if the area between the rivers Ujh and Bein went to India, the area between the Bein river and Basantar river would automatically go to India. As it is, this area has remained with us. But the stand taken by the Ahmadis [Qadianis] did create considerable embarrassment for us in the case of Gurdaspur.”
Question for Qadianis: In light of above facts do you still accept your organization’s PARTY-LINE that Qadianis were pro-Pakistan???
From Zahid Aziz:
Referring again to the Qadiani Jamaat booklet in which they have reproduced the answers given by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad to the Munir Commission (see my comment above), he was asked (p. 24):
“Have you been telling members of your Jamaat repeatedly that their real home (watan) is Qadian and that ultimately they will go back there?”
He replied:
“Every Muslim should have the wish to re-gain his watan.”
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3: Claimants of Prophethood among Qadianis were Lunatic!
QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad in his infamous teachings taught his followers that “thousands of new prophets will come”. Qadianis hold belief a “KHIRKI (Window)” of prophethood is open and prophets will keep coming. Based on this background following dialogues took place:
1974 NA Proceedings 1286 (pdf page 668):
AG: I am asking if people in your jammat made claims of prophethood?
QK3: Yes, in my jamaat some people became lunatic and made such claims.
AG: Because Window [of prophethood] was open!
Questions for Qadianis: Do you still hold belief that “window for new prophets” remains open??? And if new prophets make such claims among you, are you going to accept them, or will you call them Lunatics the way QK3 said???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Some more Al-Fazal quotes AGAINST Creation of Pakistan
Followers of Jesus Christ i.e. Catholics were able to get an Independent status for their Vatican City. QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad modeled Qadiani Khilafat after Papal. He was hoping to carve same kind of status for Qadian whether in post partition India or Pakistan. Circumstantial evidence support QK2 real motive behind his double talk in regard to creation of Pakistan. Sad thing is that a person like Sir Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan was NOT fully loyal to Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Muslim League. He was in cahoots with QK2 to have them a separate status. This was evident by allowing Qadianis to have separate representation from Muslim League in Boundary Commission in 1947. From 1974 NA proceedings it is very clear that Pakistanis did not forget Qadianis double role, and partial loyalties to Pakistan. And that impression has not dissipated to this day in Pakistan.
To support his assertion that Qadianis are separate then rest of Pakistani Muslims, Attorney General provided some more references from Al-Fazal against creation of Pakistan. He did not give text, only the references and asked QK3 to comment on them.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1386 (pdf file page 719):
August 18, 1947
December 28, 1947
These were in addition to April 5, 1947; April 12, 1947; June 17, 1947 quotes.
Question for Qadianis: Could you please provide copies, facsimiles, or links to archives of Al-Fazal referred above to dispel impression that Qadianis were against creation of Pakistan???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3: Mirza Mahmud Ahmad did NOT do Translation of Holy Quran.
Background Information:
Qadianis hold belief that FIVE VOLUME ENGLISH TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY published by their organization was done by their QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad. Following links support my claim:
http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=-308®ion=E1
http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=-307®ion=E1
Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari, a religious politician and member of Pakistan National Assembly with permission of Chairman Sahibzada Farooq Ali Khan, asked QK3 questions regarding their translations of Holy Quran. One such question was pertaining to word ‘Akhirat’ Holy Quran Chapter 2, Verse 4 ( = verse 5 in Qadiani translations). Interestingly, on this very point a discussion on this blog was previously started by me on March 31, 2012 (See link).
Anyways Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari in preamble to his question produced Sir Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan’s and QK2’s Holy Quran translation. Per Zafarullah Khan: “And our firm faith in that which has been fortold and is yet to come.” Per QK2: “In that which has been foretold and is yet to come.”
Interesting point is that QK3 made an effort to absolve him of ownership of QK2 translation. Following is dialogue between the two:
1974 NA Proceedings page 1442 (pdf file page 747):
Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud translation, “And they have firm faith in what is yet to come”.
QK3: Whose translation is this?
QK3: The one you read at the end?
Zafar Ahmad Ansari: This is of Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud. The one which has commentary.
QK3: He [QK2] did NOT do any translation.
Zafar Ahmad Ansari: What?
QK3: He [QK2] did NOT do any translation in English.
Zafar Ahmad Ansari: He [QK2] did it “And they have firm faith in what is yet to come”.
QK3: No, no. I mean to say he did not do this English Translation. These are done by someone else.
Questions for Qadianis: In light of your QK3 rejection, under oath, do you still believe that your QK2 was the original translator of Holy Quran??? If you don’t then would you please ask your QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad to correct the prevailing misconception???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Renounced Qadiani Fundamental Belief.
One fundamental difference between Lahori-Ahmadis and Qadianis is on the name Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran. Lahori-Ahmadis hold belief that name Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran is meant for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. Qadianis on the contrary hold belief that name Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran is for Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib. Because of Qadiani propaganda, Pakistani Muslims unfortunately has misconception that even HMGA and Lahori-Ahmadis hold belief like Qadianis. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari asked QK3 question on this point.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1463 (pdf file page 757):
Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Muslims collectively believe that by name Ahmad personality of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS was meant. Whereas Mirza sahib [HMGA] says that he is meant by it.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1470 (pdf filr page 761):
QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad clarified that by name Ahmad mentioned in Holy Quran is meant for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. In this regard QK3 gave a page long quote from HMGA book Najm-ul-Huda.
Question for Qadianis: Who do you hold responsible for misunderstanding about HMGA, QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad and his followers of opponents of HMGA???
From Zahid Aziz:
The Qadiani Jamaat leaders quite early on starting retracting their claim that the ‘Ahmad’ prophecy in the Quran applied to Hazrat Mirza sahib. See my article here for details.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Vague Answers on use of words Sahaba and Umal-Momineen.
Muslims of the world have reserved title ‘Sahabi/ Sahaba’ for the companions of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. Similarly the title ‘Umal-Momineen’ is reserved for wives of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS.
Qadianis use title ‘Sahabi/ Sahaba’ for companions of HMGA who remained in Qadiani Jamaat after split in movement in 1914. Similarly they use title ‘Umal-Momineen’ for HMGA one wife (mother of QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad) and wives of QK 2 (i.e. his SEVEN wives), QK3 (i.e. his TWO wives), QK4 and QK5 wives.
Qadianis are very familiar with use of these titles. But when the questions were placed to QK3, he gave vague answers. Giving the impression that he is not sure why Qadiani uses such terminology in their jamaat, or he was trying to evade questions.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1481 (pdf file page 766):
Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: I have asked, people who have met and have been with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, do you call them Sahaba or not?
QK3: We call them Sahaba in meaning that Holy Quran says. [Then he recited Holy Quran verse. It is not reported. In its place it only says ‘Arabic’].
Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari: Who do you people call “Umal-Momineen”?
QK3: We call those “Umal-Momineen” who are servants of Azwaj Mutahirat (Wives of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS) and mothers of followers of Promised Messiah (HMGA).
Question for Qadianis: Do you think these were very difficult questions for QK3 to answer, in a straight forward way, if he was an honest person???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 shied from answering Questions on Tehreef-i-Quran.
Qadianis hold belief that their their Qadiani Khalifa is appointed by God by inducing his election into minds of members of their Electoral College. As a result Qadianis hold belief that God speaks to them through their Qadiani Khalifa of the time. They further hold belief that no one among their organization can be more knowledgeable in matters of religion and understanding of Holy Quran than their Qadiani Khalifa.
Abu-Al-Atta (also known by nick name ‘Maulvi Pawa’ among Qadianis) was Qadiani Scholar. He was member of SEVEN MEMBER TEAM that did Tafseer of Holy Quran in Urdu ‘Tafseer-e-Kabeer’, published as authored by QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad.
[PLEASE NOTE: Beside the fact reported by LEARNED people (such as marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib, Professor Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib) who lived in Qadian and Rabwah that QK2 did NOT do this or any other Tafseer of Holy Quran, QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad ACKNOWLDGED UNDER OATH in 1974 NA Proceedings that QK2 did NOT do any such scholarly work.]
Abu-Al-Atta responsibility in Tafseer-e-Kabeer project was to provide Dictionary Meanings of words in Holy Quran.
[INTERESTING TRIVIA: During the days of Tafseer-e-Kabeer project, QK2 was out of Rabwah to avoid the scorching heat. He was visiting a hilly station ‘Jaba’ in Punjab. In his absence, Maulvi Abu-Al-Atta got loose with his tongue. In presence of some fellow Qadianis he uttered the forbidden words, “It is we who do the Tafseer-e-Kabeer, and Hazur (QK2) takes all the credit”. Intelligence report reached QK2. He rushed back to Rabwah and gathered his followers in a mosque. Summoned Abu-Al-Atta and made him retract his words. (I got this information from marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib and Professor Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib)].
Abu-Al-Atta was member of Qadiani Delegation in 1974 NA Proceedings. Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari was Member National Assembly. He was fluent in Arabic. Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar was weak in Arabic Knowledge. These facts were acknowledged by NA Speaker Sahibzada Farooq Ali Khan. With the permission of Speaker Zafar Ahmad Ansari posed questions on Holy Quran verses to QK3. QK3 was reluctant and shying away from answering such questions and repeatedly tried to get Abu-Al-Atta to answer questions, but Speaker did NOT allow it. Following is the relevant dialogue:
1974 NA Proceedings page 1425 (pdf page 738):
QK3: You (AG) said Hazrat Ansari sahib will ask questions on Tehreef-e-Quran?
AG: He (Ansari) can deal this subject.
QK3: I want to state some principles then after that …. [Abu-Al-Atta can answer].
Speaker: I think, my observation is that it would be better if the reply is by the witness himself.
AG: There is another difficulty….And if he (QK3) asks any other member of the Delegation, the difficulty is that he (Abu-Al-Atta) will have to be given oath and he (QK3) will have to second his evidence. So, to avoid that,….
QK3: Oath will only take 5 seconds.
Speaker: Now it is up to the witness. The weight attached and the responsibility…. The witness himself has been replying….
QK3: Yes, it will be my responsibility.
Speaker: If the answer is by the…. It would be better.
QK3: But are you giving the permission that he (Abu-Al-Atta) too can speak?
Speaker: Yes, he can speak. But I would like you to answer. It will better. It will have authority. It will carry weight. It will have more responsibility.
QK3: I am taking responsibility. I would like him to speak in place of me. If you permit….
AG: Okay. I have no objection. I have explained my position.
QK3: The decision has to be made by Chair (Speaker).
Speaker: That will carry more weight because, in ten days, all the answers have come from the witness himself. The members of the Delegation are here to help the witness. So, it would be better. We cannot force the witness to reply any question. So, on the same pretext, it would be better if the witness himself replies because witness is more conversant than the members of the Delegation, it is presumed. It would be better.
AG: It is left to your discretion.
Speaker: It is up to the witness.
1974 NA Proceedings page 1431 (pdf page 741):
Speaker: The question may be put, and then we will see who replies, whether it is the witness who replies or it is delegated to any member of the Delegation.
[Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari posed the question].
Mr. Abu-Al-Atta: Now my request is…..
Speaker: No. First I am putting it to the witness (QK3). Is the witness not prepared to answer this question?
QK3: I want question to be answered by Abu-Al-Atta sahib.
Speaker: Then you will have to state as to why you do not want to answer this question. Then I will ask the member of the Delegation to reply. You need to provide reason.
QK3: If I remember, before we left this morning, chair permitted he (Abu-Al-Atta) can answer.
Speaker: I had not given it. Only when the question has been put and the answer is to be given by the other member of the Delegation, then the Witness has to give some reasons also.
QK3: I don’t see any problem if Abu-Al-Atta sahib answers.
Speaker: There must be reasons.
Questions for Qadianis: Why QK3 wanted Abu-Al-Atta to answer questions on ‘Tehreef-e-Quran’??? Why QK3 was reluctant to provide reasons for Abu-Al-Atta to answer??? If you think Abu-Al-Atta (aka Maulvi Pawa) was more learned than QK3, then why he was not chosen as QK3 in place of Mirza Nasir Ahmad???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Al-Fazal December 25, 1932 Tampered with HMGA Poetry
1974 NA Proceedings page 1490 (pdf filr page 771):
Maulana Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari quoted Qadiani Newspaper Al-Fazal December 25, 1932 issue and recited poem published in it. The poem had HMGA poetry ‘Dur-e-Sameen’ and an EXTRA stanza.
Arab nazan hain agar arz haram per
Tu arz qadian fakhar ajam hay
Translation: If Arabs are proud of land of Grand Mosque (Kaba or haram Sharif). Non-Arabs are proud of land of Qadian.
Then following exchange took place:
QK3: Is this Hazrat Maseeh Maud [HMGA] stanza?
Ansari: What?
QK3: Is this Hazrat Maseeh Maud stanza?
Ansari: I did not say that.
QK3: Is this “Dur-e-Sameen” stanza?
Ansari: “Dur-e-Sameen” page ….
QK3: …No, no, whose “Dur-e-Sameen” is this? Who is the poet?
Ansari: It was published in Al-Fazal December 25, 1932.
QK3: Dur-e-Sameen is name of Urdu collection of Hazrat Maseeh Maud poetry. And it does NOT have second stanza [i.e. the one this writer quoted above].
Ansari: It was published in Al-Fazal December 25, 1932.
QK3: Will only know after checking it. The message that this stanza gives, we sever it and throw it away.
Questions for Qadianis: QK3 while testifying under pressure denounced teachings inculcated in minds of Qadianis through Qadiani newspaper Al-Fazal. Question is why and how Al-Fazal was allowed to publish such pervert teachings, if it was not with permission and approval of Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad??? Don’t you people think QK2 had particular agenda to sever his followers from rest of Muslim Ummah by injuring their (Muslims) feelings and encouraging them to retaliate, and leaving no choice for Qadianis other than to cling more close to QK2???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad Double Talk—a Clear Proof!
1974 NA Proceedings page 1506 (pdf page 779):
Mr. Chairman (Speaker Sahibzada Farooq Ali): Next point which I want to make clear that there shall be no disclosure of the proceedings of the committee for any purpose or for any comments till we release all the evidences which have been recorded. Till then, there cannot be reporting of even the comments as to how the proceeding continued and what was the purpose, what was the object, what was the ….. In no manner can any comments be made by the … members of the ….
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar (Attorney General): Any comments on this….
Mirza Nasir Ahmad (QK3): Yes, yes. It should NOT be published.
Mr. Chairman: Neither publication nor comments on it should be published.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. Yes. Publication and comments etc [should NOT be published]. We can talk among ourselves.
Mr. Chairman: The delegation can discuss among themselves any time, but not with others, because that would prejudice the results. And secrecy is to be strictly….
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes. From our side we are very careful. We will be careful in future too. InshAllah.
Mr. Chairman: Secrecy….
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This restriction is on everyone.
Mr. Chairman: Secrecy is to be maintained till the last. And will [with] these words, the Delegation is permitted to withdraw.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I understand I have no right to say, but I want to thank every one of you. You all have been very gracious to us. Aslam Alikum Wa Rehmatullah.
Mr. Chairman: Thank you very much.
Questions for Qadianis: Have you people ever wondered why QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad was so much supportive of National Assembly Speaker Sahibzada Farooq Ali to keep all proceedings of his (QK3) testimony secret??? Don’t you people think if there was iota of truth in QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad claims that “If 1974 NA Proceedings are made public “half” or “whole” of Pakistan would become Ahmadi (Qadiani), they would have made every effort to get it published especially when Ahmadis were declared non-Muslim minority in Pakistan??? Don’t you people think your QK3 and QK4 were guilty of double talk???
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Correction and information about Maulvi Pawa
In my previous post I erroneously wrote that Maulvi Pawa ’s real name as Abu-Al-Atta. In fact Maulvi Pawa’s real name was Maulana Abu-Nasir-Munir-ul-Huq. He was nick named Maulvi Pawa because of his short height. He was one of the seven authors panel on ‘Tafeer-e-Kabeer’ project.
Urdu Holy Quran translation of both Tafseer-e-Kabeer (Detailed Urdu Commentary of Holy Quran) and Tafseer-e-Sagheer (Short Urdu Commentary of Holy Quran) was done by Mohammad Ismail Hilalpuri. But both Tafseer-e-Kabeer and Tafseer-e-Sagheer were published as works of QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad.
In last many years of his life when QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was bedridden, in his psychotic episodes (bouts of craziness) he used to say, “Paway Ko Bullaow. Paway Ko Bullaow. Paway Ko Bullaow” (Translation: Call Pawa [Maulvi Pawa]). So, one day QK2 family called Maulvi Pawa. He came and said, “Hazoor Mein Pawa Aghia Hoan” (Translation: Hazoor, I Pawa has come). In reply QK2 started laughing like a psychotic person. This information was narrated to me by Haqiqat Passand Party member Prof. Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib.
I don’t know what was Allah’s will, but the fact is that Maulvi Pawa witnessed QK2 in humiliated state. The same person who humiliated Maulvi Pawa in a mosque in presence of fellow Qadianis, when QK2 made him retract his words about real authors of Tafseer-e-Kabeer. Following is detail of that incident.
During the days of Tafseer-e-Kabeer project, QK2 was out of Rabwah to avoid the scorching heat. He was visiting a hilly station ‘Jaba’ in Punjab. In his absence, Maulana Abu-Nasir-Munir-ul-Haq got loose with his tongue. In presence of some fellow Qadianis he uttered the forbidden words, “It is we who do the Tafseer-e-Kabeer, and Hazur (QK2) takes all the credit”. Intelligence report reached QK2. He rushed back to Rabwah and gathered his followers in a mosque. Summoned Maulana Abu-Nasir-Munir-ul-Haq and made him retract his words. I got this information from marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib and Professor Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
******************************
Qadiani Organization Rebuttal to 1974 NA Proceedings
It has come to my information that Qadiani Organization has published a book in rebuttal to 1974 NA Proceedings published by Government of Pakistan. It is authored by grandson of Mirza Sultan Ahmad. I am waiting for my copy of this book. I sincerely hope Qadiani author made a sincere effort to meticulously answer questions raised by me in this thread in regard to QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad testimony.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Is QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad Shifting Qadianis’ Basic Dogma?
QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad made efforts in his 1974 NA testimony to establish HMGA claim was of ‘Ummati-Nabi’. I heard through grapevine, not yet confirmed that in last 2~3 weeks QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad in his Friday sermon said that HMGA claim was of ‘Zilli-Nabi’. It is a shift from usual mantra of ‘Ummati-Nabi’. If this is the case then it is encouraging to see QK5 making a shift from their basic stance. Perhaps it has reached his ears that Lahori-Ahmadis like Dr. Zahid Aziz and me beside others are challenging and offering financial rewards in thousands of US dollars and British pounds to Qadianis who can provide reference from HMGA books that point out phrase ‘Ummati-Nabi’. And Qadianis in order to win prize money are combing through HMGA books to find phrase ‘Ummati-Nabi’. And as they fail in finding it, they are questioning Qadiani dogma. If there is still such Qadiani who believes HMGA wrote phrase ‘Ummati-Nabi’ I offer him US$ 10,000/=. YES, TEN THOUSAND US DOLLARS TO ANY QADIANI FOR PROVIDING REFERNCE TO PHRASE ‘UMMATI-NABI’ IN HMGA BOOKS.
From Zahid Aziz:
Although my article which I refer to below is not directly relevant to the above issue, it is related in a general sense. I have published some comments on a Friday khutba by Mirza Masroor Ahmad which he delivered last Muharram in November. I found it astonishing that he was reading out lengthy extracts from the writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad which directly contradict his own beliefs.
Please read it here.
My article was delayed, firstly because I was waiting for the printed version of the khutba to appear, and secondly, due to an event in my family during January.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Help for Qadianis Who Put Questions To Their Leadership?
It is possible that some Qadianis with conscience read my posts in this thread and ponder on my questions. And in search of answers make “mistake” of asking their leaders (Odhay Dar) or even their QK 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad. If they do make such a “mistake”, it is very likely that their family members, and in case they are married, their wives will argue, fight and ultimately file for divorce. Please remember Qadiani ladies before start of every Lajna (female society of Qadianis) meeting take oath of allegiance to Qadiani Khalifa. As a result they honestly believe that their primary allegiance is to Qadiani Khalifa. And their oath at time of Nikah (marriage ceremony) to their husband is secondary. There are such examples where husband questioned QK4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad for his astronomically exaggerated lies of 200 million Qadiani conversions. Or that husband who questioned QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad character after reading ‘Rabwah Ka Rasputin (Rasputin of Rabwah) Mirza Mahmud Ahmad’ by Tahir Rafiq. Instead of providing reply to genuine questions, Qadiani leadership has put pressure on wives to file for divorce from their husbands.
In USA, Canada and European countries there is a law that gives right to grieved party (in Qadianis case the husbands) to file a civil law suit for monetary damages against third part (in Qadianis case against Qadiani organization and its head the Qadiani Khalifa at the time) for being instrument in breaking that marriage bond between the couple. As has happened in USA and perhaps other developed countries where victims of sexual molestation by Catholic priests sued the Catholic Church and the respective dioceses had to pay damages to victims in hundreds of millions of dollars. And this they did by selling their prime properties in prime locations of many metropolises.
I have asked grieved Qadianis to get together and sue Qadiani organization and personally QK5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad and ask for financial award. I have asked such people to hire a Civil Law Attorney in USA. And as a seed money I have offered US$10,000/= I am sure there will be some Civil Law attorney who realizes the merit of such law suit, and is even willing to fight case on contingency basis.
So, dear Qadiani friends please be courageous and do take such a step of asking legitimate questions from your leadership and QK5. And in reply if you’re served divorce notices, be assured there is help.
Dear Qadiani friends, change in your organization has to come from inside. It is you who can bring change. Otherwise you risk lives and honor of your children and your Qadiani relatives in Pakistan through the hands of Mullah-Mafia. You will always be discriminated by Muslim masses of the world. And it will only hinder HMGA presentation of Islam as peaceful, rational, inspiring, loving, tolerant, intellectual, and non-sectarian.
I personally honestly believe that all the turmoil that we witness today i.e. US, Canada, Europe countries killing Muslims directly or indirectly; Israel killing Palestinians and other Muslims with support of US and European countries; Islam branded as terrorism religion; Muslim terrorists and extremists presenting Islam as ‘Religion of Terror’; other social and financial evils in Muslim countries is ALL BECAUSE OF QADIANI KHALIFA 2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD. Had he not distorted Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib’s interpretation of Islam, Muslims would have taken advantage of HMGA writings and his companions, who formed Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement, writings and would have spread it to the US, Canada, and European countries. As a result in last 100 years majority populations would have accepted Islam by their own choice. There would have been fairness, justice, equality, and peace in the world. As Western, North American and European Muslims would have helped Asian and African Muslims to overcome their social, economic, political, educational problems. If change could be brought in Qadiani Organization, these problems in the entire world would be to a great extent resolved before the end of 21st century. InshAllah.
From ikram:
If we read the said Khutba of QK-5 in light of analysis of Dr. Zahid Aziz, the following verses of Quran come to mind with regards to double standards of Qadiani pulpit:
In summary, when cajoling fellow non-Qadiani Muslims the QKs have one set of rules for interpretation of writings and saying of HMGA and another set for their own self-preservations. But, the bigger question is to Qadiani followers as to how they reconcile the double-read of their Khalifas, especially now that Dr. Aziz has pointed it out in his article the plain facts visible in plain sight of a plain text of a plain language of HMGA that he was not and cannot be a prophet, no matter what a Qadiani Khalifa (2-5) has to say in support of his Khilafat.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Qadiani Rebuttal to 1974 NA Proceedings on Qadiani Issue
Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad (QK3) as head of Qadiani Organization delegation to Pakistan National Assembly in 1974 presented his testimony to Special Committee on Qadiani Issue. In his closing statement he asked National Assembly Speaker acting as Chairman of Special Committee Mr. Sahibzada Farooq Ali Khan to keep his testimony secret and never to be provided to the Pakistani public. In months and years following the 2nd Constitutional Amendment to 1973 Pakistan’s Constitution announcement on September 7, 1974 got encouraged that QK3 testimony has been placed as state secret for indefinite time. This gave courage to QK3 and his successor Qadiani Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad (QK4) to openly brag and make announcements in their Friday Sermons that if QK3 testimony is made public half and even entire population of Pakistan will become followers of Qadiani Khalifas. Now as ‘1974 Proceedings of Special Committee on Qadiani Issue’ are made public by the Government of Pakistan, it has created a turmoil in minds of Qadiani Khalifa 5 Mirza Masroor Ahmad (QK5) and other Qadiani Khalifa Family (QKF) members who need existence of their Qadiani Followers for their own financial gains and clout in political circles around the world. This publication has given rise to a new very uncomforting reality. With availability of internet, and STUPIDITY of Qadiani Preacher Malik Safi-Ullah also known as Rind Malik now living in Canada, the 1974 NA Special Committee Proceedings have become widely distributed (he emailed it to Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members), has become available to Qadiani Followers. They are able to read themselves what QK3 said, answered, presented and how he defended his case in Special Committee.
QK5 and other QKF members have published a rebuttal to 1974 NA Proceedings on Qadiani Issue. Khasusi Committee Mein Kia Guzri (Translation: What Happened in Special Committee) by Dr. Mirza Sultan Ahmad, cousin of QK5. Qadianis have dedicated established a website: http://www.proceedings1974.org
The website has entire book. It is 600 pages lengthy ‘Full of Fat’ book. The book has tried to ‘Ankhoan Per Charbi Utarna’ (Translation: ‘To Pull Fat on Eye Balls’ in order to make blind).
The Qadiani Rebuttal has lots of information which was already made public by them and available on their official website e.g. Qadiani Publication ‘Mazhar Nama’. This almost 200 pages book was distributed by them to National Assembly members. Repetition of great chunk of public information of political events in Pakistan in years preceding and succeeding QK3 testimony in Special Committee.
Qadiani Followers were very confident that whenever Government of Pakistan makes QK3 Testimony Public it will silence all opponents of Qadiani Cult including Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement (LAM) members, and as wished and hoped, ALL OF PAKISTAN WILL ACCEPT QADIANI VERSION OF HAZRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD (HMGA) TEACHINGS. Now as ‘The Cat is Out of the Bag’ the truth is out and what QK3 and QK4 bragged was NOTHING BUT PACK OF LIES. QK3 testimony is NOT convincing to keep current Qadiani Cult members to stay within the cult.
In coming days and weeks (depends on availability of time) I plan to read and comment on its contents of Qadiani Rebuttal. So far I have browsed it and I have following observations to make:
1-Author has NOT commented on any of the points I have raised BASED ON TESTIMONY OF QK3 in my preceding posts in this thread.
2-Author has NOT given arguments to convince readers that support QK3 replies in his testimony.
3-Author has repeated ad nauseum worn out, over used, stale arguments to establish HMGA so called “Ummati-Nabi” status.
4-Author has stayed away from telling readers what QK3 testified in Special Committee.
5-Every effort has been made to PUT IN BACKGROUND AND OUT OF LIME LIGHT: QK3 EVASIVE ANSWERS, CONTRADICTORY ANSWERS, LIES, SOMERSAULTS ON FUNDAMENTAL QADIANI BELIEFS, SHYING AWAY FROM STATEMENTS OF HIS FATHER AND UNCLE, CONDEMNING HIS QADIANI FOLLOWERS, LYING THAT AL-FAZAL NEWSPAPER IS NOT OWNED BY QADIANI CULT, TELLING THE TRUTH UNDER PRESSURE THAT QK2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD NEVER DID TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY OF HOLY QURAN etc.
6-Creating impression in minds of readers that QK3 TESTIMONY TRANSCRIBED AND PUBLISHED BY GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN IN 2011-2012 IS DONE BY MULLAH 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY MEMBER MUHAMMAD ZAFAR AHMAD ANSARI, when the FACT is that the said Mullah died LONG BEFORE under orders of Lahore High Court current Speaker of Pakistan National Assembly Dr. Fahmida Mirza got AUDIO AND VIDEO RECORDINGS OF QK3 TESTIMONY TRANSCRIBED BY OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN PRESS ‘PRINTING CORPORATION OF PAKISTAN – NATIONAL BOOK FOUNDATION’ ISLAMABAD.
INFORMATION ON 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS RECORDING:
As a young man I have witnessed Pakistan National Assembly session from the visitors’ gallery in the old Pakistan National Assembly that was housed in State Bank of Pakistan building, Islamabad. The chairs in green upholstery in the hall were arranged like theater. There was wide walkway space between the front row and the speaker’s podium. On two ends of this walk way were TWO TELEVISON CAMERAS. Personally it was first time in my life I saw TV Cameras mounted on pipe/pedestal.
I have read 1508 pages of QK3 transcribed testimony. Reader is easily convinced that transcription is from Audio and Video recording. Transcribers have recorded extra conversation between speaker and members of national assembly before and after QK3 testimony. In parenthesis wrote when any house member approached the speaker podium. Reported when speaker of the house vacated his seat and was occupied by Deputy Speaker or any other member of house. This they could only be able to do if transcriber was visually watching the proceedings.
So, the Qadiani assertion that Mullah Muhammad Zafar Ahmad Ansari arranged QK3 testimony in 2011-2012 is nothing but an effort to throw dust into the eyes of Qadiani Cult Followers.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
POSTING ON QADIANIS BLOG.
Qadianis have started a blog. As they don’t reply to my questions on this LAM blog, so today i copy-pasted my first post from this thread on their blog. I plan to copy-paste my posts routinely on Qadiani blog. Let’s see if they keep my posts and do care to answer. Link to Qadiani blog:
http://cultgirlahmadiyya.blogspot.com/2013/03/refutation-1974-ahmadiyya-proceedings.html?showComment=1362720426575#c6147710286867889630
Rashid Jahangiri8 March 2013 05:27
December 25th, 2012 at 9:44 am
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Qadianis Please Provide Reference to QK3 Claim
On page 135 (pdf file page 79)
Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad while testifying in 1974 National Assembly made claim that “You (HMGA) said, do not call me/ address me with simple word ‘Nabi’” and then QK3 went on to imply that he (HMGA) is to be called/ addressed with word ‘Ummati-Nabi’.
This LAM blog has posts to confirm that followers of Qadiani Khalifas 2,3,4,5 have repeatedly failed to provide a single reference where HMGA used word “ummati-nabi” for himself.
In this post I am challenging Qadianis to provide reference from HMGA writings that support QK3 statement: “You (HMGA) said, do not call me/ address me with simple word ‘Nabi’”.
If Qadianis or their supporters the ex-Qadiani opponents of LAM fail to provide any such reference then readers should know that QK3 MISLED THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
WORRIES OF QADIANIS WHEN THEY DEBATE WITH LAM
As Qadianis find difficult to answer my questions on their blog, and it also worries them THAT THEIR QK5 MIRZA MASROOR AHMAD WILL ADMONISH THEM AND issue SOME SORT OF GAG ORDER PREVENTING THEM FROM DISCUSSING WITH LAM PEOPLE. QK5 worry is other young Qadianis, visiting Qadiani blog, will be exposed to truth of what QK3 said in 1974 National Assembly, and will feel encouraged to question QK5 and other office holders (AUDEYDAR)/ elders in Qadiani cult. I HAVE COPY PASTED QADIANI'S POST:
The Batman10 March 2013 12:16
@Mr Jahangiri
As you have initiated a debate we did not ask for it is your duty to answer our questions first:
http://cultgirlahmadiyya.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/belief-questions-for-lahori-ahmadis-p1.html
Until you answer our questions yours will be ignored.
Also, some of our team have posted comments on your site. If these are moderated and you are not willing to welcome us on your site then sorry but we will have to consider removing you and all of your comments from ours. We welcome you and your point of view, but we're not willing to engage in a dishonest one sided debate where you censor us and we allow you to constantly raise objections against Khilafat-e-Ahmadiyya.
From Abdullah7:
Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
@ Rashid Jahangiri.
Simply answer their questions too, while you are raising yours, it's fair, if they make this demand, and why to stop the process of a dialogue for everyone benefit, it's not that I win or you win or they win and such. The idea is to put out the argument, that each one of us think is right, with proof and let all whether involve in dialogue or simply general readers to make up their mind and chose what they see truthful for them.
Just like in Quran, ALLAH had informed through HIS messengers, that all the Prophets simply called people to right path, by providing them the signs of ALLAH and left on people to chose and none of the Prophets were ever sent to forcefully make people come to right.
So, it should be the case here as well, you put forth your questions and replies to their counter questions and replies, and that's all to it and let each person whoever come across these, make up their own mind who is right and who is not reading the arguments put forth by each. At least tomorrow when we face ALLAH on judgement day, we can say that ALLAH we did call them to right path.
I would like to make one more request to all involved, that please, use good language and don't get upset if one says this or that is a lie according to his/her understanding, if you think, that other is wrong in thinking whatever the case, then simply counter them with arguement with proof, instead of insults or getting upset and stop talking all together.
From Abdul Rahman:
[PLEASE NOTE: Beside the fact reported by LEARNED people (such as marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib, Professor Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib) who lived in Qadian and Rabwah that QK2 did NOT do this or any other Tafseer of Holy Quran, QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad ACKNOWLDGED UNDER OATH in 1974 NA Proceedings that QK2 did NOT do any such scholarly work.]
Could you give me reference for above?
Wassalam
AbdulRahman
From Rashid Jahangiri:
@Abdul Rehman,
1-Please read the page number referred in 1974 NA proceedings, where QK3 states QK2 did not Holy Quran translation.
2-Please read acknowledgement portion in '5 Volume English Translation and Commentary' published by Qadiani Organization. QK2 acknowledges he did NOT do commentary either.
3-Maulvi Sher Ali sahib was father in-law of marhoom Abdul Manan Omar sahib. While in Rabwah around 1948 he was appointed as incharge of Holy Quran publication by QK2. He gave him very limited funds. And asked Abdul Manan Omar sahib, don't ask me any more money. QK2 purpose was to NOT publish Holy Quran Translation and commentary by Maulvi Sher Ali sahib. As Qadiani Khalifas would have published it many years AFTER THE DEATH OF ORIGINAL AUTHOR, under name of QK2. Anyways, Abdul Manan Omar sahib managed to get published at least the Holy Quran Translation by Maulvi Sher Ali sahib. He did NOT have funds to get TAFSEER (commentary) ALSO PUBLISHED. Compare Holy Quran Translation published under Sher Ali sahib name and in 5 volume Commentary published under QK2 name. Similarly Holy Quran Translation published in 'Tafseer-e-Sagheer' is DONE BY MAULVI MUHAMMAD ISLAMIL HILALPURI. Professor Ghulam Rasool sahib is MashAllah alive. He was sitting in that Juma Khutab in which QK2 announced that Holy Quran translation is complete and is done by Ismail Hilal puri. Same is the case with 'Tafseer-Kabeer' It was done by TEAM OF SEVEN PEOPLE, including Maulvi Pawa. My understanding is that its translation is same as Tafseer-e-Sagheer. Anyways, its commentary is not complete and was NOT done by QK2.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
@Abdullah7:
1-Qadianis have established a dedicated website on 1974 NA Proceedings: http://www.proceedings1974.org and published a book 'What Happened in Special Committee' by Dr. Mirza Sultan Ahmad.
2-Qadianis have also started dedicated thread for discussion on 1974 proceedings on their website:http://cultgirlahmadiyya.blogspot.com/2013/03/refutation-1974-ahmadiyya-proceedings.html?showComment=1362720426575
IN BOTH PLACES QADIANIS HAVE AVOIDED COMMENTING ON LIES, EVASIVE ANSWER, CONTRADICTORY ANSWER, SOMERSAULTS ON QADIANI BASIC BELIEFS. THEIR PURPOSE IS TO TAKE LIME LIGHT OFF OF QK3 MIRZA NASIR AHMAD. QADIANI LEADERSHIP DON'T WANT THEIR FOLLOWERS TO KNOW THE TRUTH. THEY DON'T WANT FOLLOWERS TO LEARN WHAT QK3 ACTUALLY ANSWERED IN 1974 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS.
When I bring these points in focus on Qadiani blog, they bring IRRELAVENT POINTS such as who is the "Promised Son". I can tell you one thing a 'Promised Son' of HMGA could NEVER be the one who had debauched sex on a massive scale. Go and ask Maulvi Sarwar Shah sahib's son who is still alive and on his sick bed, Mubarik Shah in Hamburg Germany, he was part of inner circle of QK2 and participated in orgies of QK2.
When HMGA said he is like prophets Noah and Lot, he was correct. As his children and wife turned out to be exactly like wives and children of those prophets.
I have answered Qadianis posters point relevant to my questions. If you think, there is such a point that i did not answer, please let me know. I will answer it.
Please remember, i don't want to get bogged down in nonsense issues with Qadianis. I have wasted lot of my time answering their irrelevant questions since year 2000.
From Abdullah7:
Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Raheem
@ Rashid Jahangiri.
I understand what you mean and the logic, that since you initiated the debate, so for them to answer, you need to answer them first, makes no sense, but that how it seems, that they want to go forward only if you answer them first. So why giving them a way out by not answeing ? and if you have already answered their irrelevant questions, then it should not be hard for you, simply just cut and paste your answer to them, and let them not use this excuse and run away from answering back, if you think that they are running away.
For example, they asked you to answer them about Khalifa 2 being the promised son and for you if he is not, then simply say so and in return demand them to answer your questions.
I am in the process of reading up all that is related to promised son as Batman asked, so I will be posting soon on that issue once I am done going through the material. But Batman already acknowledged that Mirza Sahib never wrote in any of his writing that Khalif 2 was the promised son. That itself should be enough for one to realise that Khalifa 2 is not the promised son, because otherwise Mirza Sahib would have said so, if Mirza Sahib thought that Khalifa 2 is that son.
So why not simply answer whatever you have to say and then in return, demand the same from them, like you answer one of their question and they answer one of yours. Instead of stopping this process of finding the truth, who is right and who is wrong.
Also it does not matter if they don't accept or you don't accept or I don't accept, the purpose is to put out the information in open for others to read and make them their own mind, that what is true and what is not.
As I sense from your post, you think that majority of the Qadiani people are not informed well or never read up the things and they simply follow whatever is told to them, then this process that is started is good opportunity for the benefits of all the readers to get to the information and decide for themselves.
I hope you and they understand my point, that it's not about win or lose in a debate, it's about coming to the right path before we lose our life, after which there is no way to correct ones path. If you think that the path that you are following is right, then pur forth your argument and reply in return to their argument why it is not right and vice versa for all of us.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
QADIANI REBUTTAL OF 1974 NA PROCEEDINGS TAKEN OFF LINE.
Qadianis established a dedicated website 'proceedings1974.org' and posted pdf 'Khasusi Committee Mein Kia Guzri (Translation: What Happened in Special Committee) by Dr. Mirza Sultan Ahmad'.
Today i found some time to provide page numbers as reference to prove that author has very cunningly taken lime light off of QK3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad. He did NOT comment on QK3 answers that undermine Qadiani beliefs and propaganda. For example author did NOT comment that how QK3 was SUPPORTING AND EVEN REQUESTING GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN TO NOT TO PUBLISH HIS TESTIMONY. While in public he was claiming that if testimony is published HALF AND WHOLE OF PAKISTAN WILL BECOME QADIANI.
If Qadiani website does not put the book back online, then i will wait for hard copy of book to arrive from Pakistan. Prof. Chaudhry Ghulam Rasool sahib has one copy.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Rashid Jahangiri15 March 2013 04:54
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The Batman15 March 2013 10:46
ADMIN: Mr. Jahangiri's comments have been removed for breaking the rules of this site.
Anonymous15 March 2013 10:47
Honestly Rashid Sahib, Ahmadiphobic allegations by anti-Ahmadis probably hold more reasoning than your allegations.
The Khulafa do not memorize each and every book of every Khulafa that came before them. May I enlighten you that needing to check the reference to see the context has NO correlation with shyness.
Your allegation is not even an allegation but am urge to raise an allegation.
The Batman15 March 2013 10:58
@Anonymous
Rashid Sahib is a spammer. He still hasn't bothered to answer a single one of our five simple questions: http://cultgirlahmadiyya.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/belief-questions-for-lahori-ahmadis-p1.html
His questions are irrelevant. We already know he doesn't believe in Khilafat so who cares what our answers to his questions are. Our questions are much more relevant. We have simply asked him to explain one or two important passages from the revelations/writings of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
The reason he wont is because if he did read those passages and answer them his only choice would be to accept Khalifatul Masih II as the Promised Son or to reject the writings and revelations of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as false.
Rashid Jahangiri16 March 2013 10:42
@Batman (Blog admin CultGirlAhmadiyya):
1-I posted a questioned, with reference from 1974 Pakistan National Assembly proceedings on Qadiani Issue published by Government of Pakistan. The question was posed by Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar to Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad. The question asked a VERY WELL KNOW QUOTE OF QK2 MIRZA MAHMUD AHMAD, where he asserted BASIC QADIANI BELIEF that “THOUSANDS OF NEW PROPHETS WILL COME IN FUTURE AFTER HOLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAWS”. Every Qadiani KNOWS it. Just like every Lahori-Ahmadi knows that NO NEW OR OLD prophet can come after Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. If you wake up a young Lahori-Ahmadi kid from his sleep in middle of night and pose him the question on finality of prophethood on Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, s/he will give you Lahori-Ahmadiyya basic belief. My question was simply: How come QK3 expressed his ignorance about the QK2 quote. He must know that. Or at least he was supposed to know that. Even Lahori-Ahmadis KNOW this famous quote of Qadianis so called “Musleh Mahud the Promised Son” !!! Only answer comes to readers mind is that QK3 was avoiding answering the question!!!
Batman, I simply asked this question on your blog that is written with the purpose of discussing 1974 NA Proceedings on Qadiani Issue. I do NOT understand why you deleted my post. It only tells readers that my hard hitting questions disturb ego of you Qadianis. To preserve your self-esteem you Qadianis as a defense mechanism delete my posts. You people are NO different than the Mullah Opponents of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib, when I ask them hard hitting questions they too delete my posts and ban me on their blogs.
You have accused me of breaking the rules of blog. You wrote: “ADMIN: Mr. Jahangiri's comments have been removed for breaking the rules of this site.” PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RULE DID I BREAK???
2-Batman you wrote: “Rashid Sahib is a spammer. He still hasn't bothered to answer a single one of our five simple questions: http://cultgirlahmadiyya.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/belief-questions-for-lahori-ahmadis-p1.html”
As I repeatedly replied in my earlier posts in the current thread on ‘1974 NA Proceedings on Qadiani Issue’ that this thread is NOT about whether QK2 Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was “Promised Son” or not!!! When I find time I will reply Qadiani posters on the relevant thread. There I will PROVE QK2 was NOT a “Promised Son” and I will give my reasons to prove that why he FAILED to be a “Promised Son”. In the mean time I give you Qadianis a home work. Like US Presidential Candidate nomination by Republicans or Democratic parties you Qadianis should hold PRIMARIES. Currently there are at least THREE OTHER CANDIDATES among Qadianis who lay claim to be the “Promised Son”. Their names: 1-Abdul Ghaffar Jamba in Germany. 2- Muhiuddin Munir in Mauritius. 3-Zafarullah Duman in Mauritius. So Qadianis please settle on name of one “Promised Son” and then invite me to discuss with you on the subject of “Promised Son”.
Batman, your accusation is WRONG. I do Believe in KHLIAFAT OF HAZRAT MAULANA NOOR UD DIN. Just the way Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khawaja Kamal ud Din and other elders of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement believed.
Batman, I DO NOT REJECT REVELATIONS OF HAZRAT MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD SAHIB. But please DO TELL me where HMGA wrote: “I will have a Promised Son, who will be my biological son, and he will have SEX with my granddaughters and grandsons; and with my daughter in-law; with his brother’s daughter; will make my daughter in-laws to conceive children from driver and other strangers; and with wives, daughters, sons of my followers living in Qadian and Rabwah”???
Note: I will be copy pasting this comment on Lahori-Ahmadi blog: wwwDOTahmadiyyaDOTorg and on anti-HMGA/LAM/Qadiani blog wwwDOTahmediDOTorg
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Above is copy of Comments bly blog Qadiani master 'Batman' on Qadiani Blog 'CultGirlAhmadiyya' and my rebuttal.
From Zahid Aziz:
There is a simple, most definitive and conclusive reply to the questions by the Qadiani Jamaat, and their anti-Ahmadi allies such as Rationalist (who has jumped in on their behalf), on the 'Promised son' prophecy. It is a published article by Mirza Mahmud Ahmad in his own magazine, in 1908. See the link below:
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad wrote, at death of Promised Messiah, that the ‘Promised Son’ would not be actual son of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
To quote from it:
"These revelations did not mean that the Promised Messiah himself would have a son but that in the future such a man would be born from his progeny who, in the sight of God, would be as if he were his son, and would be considered his fifth son, besides his four sons. Just as Jesus is known as the son of David, so will he be called the Promised Messiah’s son."
From Zahid Aziz:
I have been informed by the anti-Ahmadiyya stooges, allies and apologists of the Qadianis that the Qadiani Jamaat will respond to my presenting the 1908 article of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad (see above) by saying that Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was later on taught the true meaning of this prophecy by God, just as Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was later on taught by God the true meaning of the prophecy about the coming Messiah, which he had earlier wrongly interpreted.
Did Mirza Mahmud Ahmad ever write this anywhere that he first wrongly understood this prophecy? Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote again and again in his books that he had earlier expressed the wrong view, i.e. the view that Jesus would come in person.
Secondly, the reason Hazrat Mirza sahib gave for earlier holding the wrong view was that it was the generally-held Muslim view, and therefore he naturally held it because they did, since he grew up in that environment. This means that the reason why Mirza Mahmud Ahmad held his earlier view (that the Promised Son would not be a physical, literal, son of Promised Messiah but a spiritual son) was that he grew up in the environment in the Ahmadiyya Jamaat where this was a widely-held view!
So let us at least agree on this point, that in 1908 after the death of Hazrat Mirza sahib, it was the generally-prevailing view in the Ahmadiyya Jamaat that the Promised son was not one of his four sons but either a later physical descendant or a spiritual descendant.
It is further interesting that long before, in fact decades before, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad was taught the "true meaning" of this prophecy by God, his followers were making speeches and writing articles that it applied to him.
From Zahid Aziz:
Now I am told by the anti-Ahmadiyya that my argument given above about what Mirza Mahmud Ahmad believed in 1908 means that I must also accept that the Qadiani concept of khilafat is correct because in 1908 Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din accepted khilafat.
Yes, I do accept what Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din did in 1908. In the report of the annual gathering of December 1908, as published in Badr, dated 24-31 December 1908, it is stated regarding Maulana Muhammad Ali's speech:
“A hand written note of the Promised Messiah was read, the summary of which is that after him all decisions of the Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya will be final.”
As to Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din, his speech at the same gathering, reported in the same issue of Badr, contained the following:
“Around 22 December 1905 the Promised Messiah received a revelation that very few days remained [of his life]. Upon this, he immediately wrote and published his Will, and separated himself almost entirely from the management of the Movement, handing over all the work to the Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya, as if he was ready to meet his Maker at any moment. Then God, in order to belie the predictions of certain false claimants to revelation, granted him life for a further two and a half years. Because of this, he saw in his own life the system working which was to come into effect after him.
"From 1882 to 1900 he sowed a crop entirely by his own labour with the help of God. But when the time came to reap the crop and eat the fruit, he gave it not to his offspring nor to his relatives, but to a man who had come from outside [Maulana Nur-ud-Din]. For me there is no greater proof of his truth. The Holy Prophet Muhammad conquered the land but in the end made it unlawful for his own descendants to receive the zakat that came. This example of selflessness without personal interest was only again seen in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, peace be upon him. …
Anyhow, this Imam has appointed this Anjuman as his successor.”
That is what Maulana Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din announced about their concept of khilafat in the first annual gathering in 1908 after the death of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
INVITATION TO QADIANI POSTER/ BLOGGER LUTF Sahib
Qadiani poster/ blogger Lutf sahib sometimes post on this host LAM blog. When I started posting summersaults replies of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad in 1974 National Assembly proceedings on Qadiani Issue, I was expecting Lutf sahib will take the challenge to answer my questions. To my disappointment he did not make his presence known in this thread. All I hoped he was physically in good health. Anyways, today I received an email with link to our Qadiani friend Lutf sahib blog. I went through his ‘Lutf’s Blog’. He wrote a blog on US Diplomatic Cables on anti-Ahmadiyya riots in 1974, leaked on Wikileaks. He wrote another blog on Friday, February 8, 2013 ‘1974 -VI Kufr and Islam – Circles and Boundaries’. This blog he wrote on QK3 replies in 1974 NA Proceedings. I was extremely disappointed to see him circumnavigating and bypassing QK3 replies on which I have commented and have put Questions to Qadiani e.g. If Qadianis mean by their use of word ‘Kafir’ a Sinner, then why don’t they offer prayers behind Lahori-Ahmadi Imam, or funeral prayer of Lahori-Ahmadi, where as they offer prayers behind Qadiani Imam, who could fall into their category of ‘Kafir’ by being a Sinner. Or they offer funeral prayer of Kafir-Qadiani i.e. a Sinner-Qadiani. Similarly, he did not answer QK3 comment that ‘Al-Fazal’ is NOT Qadiani Jamaat newspaper. Whereas Lutf wrote a blog on Jamaat-i-Islami newspaper ‘Daily Ummat’. Another comment that QK3 acknowledged was that QK2 did NOT do any translation and commentary of Holy Quran. Luft sahib is silent on it.
Dear Lutf sahib,
Your blog does not have option for LAM posters to comment. And my previous experience, including the recent one on Qadiani blog ‘Cult Girl Ahmadiyya’, tells me that Qadiani friends do not like Lahori-Ahmadis to post on their blogs. May be because we do not use profanities for HMGA, rather we expose lies of QK2, QK3 and QK4. Qadiani have no problem in tolerating people who use curses for HMGA but zero tolerance for people who expose their Qadian Khalifas. So, I request you to please grace this thread and care to answer my questions that I posted at end of every comment I wrote on QK3 reply in 1974 NA Proceedings on Qadiani Issue.
Link to Lutf’s Blog:
http://lutfislam.blogspot.com/
From Omar:
I am waiting on my previous request for information regarding the Ahmadiyya case of 1974 and 1985.
Omar
From Zahid Aziz:
Rashid had responded in this comment.
It is difficult to think of any impartial, purely objective and detailed treatment of this subject. Most writings on this subject are by opponents of the Ahmadiyya Movement, and others are by the Qadiani Jamaat, all of whom have their own interests in manipulating the truth.
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Qadianis Question Mahmudis (those who believe QK2 was "Musleh Mahud")
I received following email by Qadiani, where he has questioned Mahmudis:
Assalaam – O – Alaikum
Hadi Ali Chaudhry Sb,
The Editor, Ahmadiyya Gazette Canada
Reference: Article: Response to the 11 Allegations raised by Opponents of Khilafat (May 2014 issue)
http://www.ahmadiyyagazette.ca/articles/706.html
Assalam-o-Alaikum,
First and foremost I would like to clear this misconception that I am Opponent of Khilafat. I am not opponent of Khilafat, rather opponent of anyone, including you, who innovate and propagate contrary to the teachings of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as).
I have reviewed your response for the eleven points that I had sent to you last year, May 2013. You have published the response after an entire year. I am afraid that at this rate the discussion will not complete in a timely fashion so I will mention only one point of the original eleven at this time, hoping that you will be able to respond in a more timely fashion. Your response is full of “Dajal” where you side step the questions and just try to create confusion for the readers.
The question was advent of Ummati Prophets even after Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as)
Herein is #2 point that I had sent in my last mail.
# 2) The history of Jamaat and its literature is witness to it that up until 1968 it was the unanimous faith of Jamaat of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) that Messengers, Prophets and Mujadadeen shall keep on descending in the Jamaat Ahmadiyya (i.e. true Islam) until the day of resurrection. What prompted him to put forward this innovation contrary to the teachings of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as)? Also, third Khalifa’s statements in Pakistan National Assembly of 1974 that no Ummati Prophet will come after Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) in the Ummah was in direct contradiction of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as)’s clear statements that Ummati Prophets shall keep on coming in future as well. (Reference: Roohani Khazain, Volume 20, Page 227)
I have reviewed your responses. Instead of providing any supporting proof to refute my point, in your traditional manner you have just resorted to accusations. Such behavior does not suit someone who is charged with representing Jama’at in official capacity.
Enclosed you will find three very brief documents which you can read for your own-self. The statements of the Third Khalifa where he has categorically stated that there has been promise of ONLY ONE Ummati Nabi, which was Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as).
1. First document is from Proceedings from National Assembly Proceedings from 1974. (This entire document is also hosted by Jama’at on different websites)
2. Second document is a scanned copy of Al-Fazal – Friday Sermon by Third Khalifa – November 1, 1977
3. Third Document is summary of Jumma Khutba delivered by the Third Khalifa in Sweden on Aug 4, 1978 published on alislam.org
After reading the enclosed documents there is no doubt regarding Third Khalifa’s creed concerning the advent of Ummati Prophets in future after Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as).
Propagation of this creed by the Third Khalifa is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) as well as Hadhrat Musleh Maud (ra). These documents clearly prove that Khalifa III in spite of constant reminders by the Attorney General in his cross examination that the founder of Jama’at Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) have stated in his books that after him in future the Ummati Prophets and reformers shall keep on adventing till Qiyamah. Khalifa III did not confirm those statements of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) as well as Hadhrat Musleh Maud (ra) in spite of being pressed by the Attorney General. More-over the conduct of Khalifa III was also against what had been presented to the National Assembly in “Mahzar Nama” wherein the verses of the Holy Quran were enlisted that the messengers of Allah the Exalted shall keep on coming in the Ummah till Qiyammah.
Is not the statement of Khalifa III in direct contradiction and avoidance of the teachings of Hadhrat Masih-e-Maud (as) and Hadhrat Musleh Maud (ra) and also what the Jama’at through Anjuman-e-Ahmadiyya had presented in “Mahzar Nama” ?
Wa Salaam,
Nasir Mahmood
13th June 2014