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May 30th, 2009

Did Jesus live to age 120 years?

Submitted by Bashir.


Is it possible that Jesus lived until age 120?  Why did HMGA write that this was true?  Do prophets live half the age of their predecessor?  What is Kanzulummal? 
 
Here is the so-called hadith that was used to prove that Jesus lived until the age of 120:
 
“The Holy prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: “Gabriel informed me that every successive has lived to half the age of his predecessor. And verily jesus, son of mary, lived to 120 years. Therefore, I think, I may reach the age of sixty. (Kanzulummal Vol. 11 page 479).
 
1.      Treasure of the Doers of Good Deeds(Arabic: Kanz al-Ummal fi sunan al-aqwal wa’l af`al is a known 8 volume set Islamic hadith collection, collected by Islamic Scholar Ala’Uddin Ali al-Muttaqi ibn Hisam-Uddin al-Hindi, Al Muttaqi was born 888AH, CE 1472 in Burhanpur which is a town situated in modern day Southern Madhya Pardesh on the banks of the river Tapti, India. 
 
This book of hadith was written almost 800 years after the death of the prophet.  Why is Kanzul-ummul given precedence to over the sahih and sunan books?  Prophets do not live half the years of their predecessor prophet, that’s totally irrational!  Why did HMGA use this hadith, I just cant understand it. 
 
Muslims cannot rely on any other books of hadith for theory.  Muslims must rely on the sahih and sunan books.  Muslims cannot rely on a book of tradition that was written some 800 years after the death of the HP. 
 
For the AMI, if the AMI believe that this hadith is true, then HMGA(assuming that he is a prophet), he should have lived to roughly 30 years of age.  The fact is that this tradition is totally false.  I don’t think that any scholar can prove that this is true.  If so, I would love to see it! 
 
HMGA has placed Kanzul-ummal above all the sahih and sunan books, not to mention the Koran.  I cant explain this action of his.  I hope that someone can explain this to me. 
 
See-  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanzul_Ummal
  
Here are some other hadith books that the sunni adhere to:
 
Al-Muwatta
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal— 780-855
Sunan al-Darimi — 868
Sahih Ibn Khuzaymah — 923
Sahih Ibn Hibbaan — 965
Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain — 1014
Mawdu’at al-Kubra— 1128-1217
Riyadh as-Saaliheen— 1233 – 1278
Mishkat al-Masabih – 1340
Talkhis al-Mustadrak — 1274-1348
Majma al-Zawa’id — 1335-1405
Bulugh al-Maram — 1372-1449

Kanz al-Ummal — 1500s

29 Responses to “Did Jesus live to age 120 years?”

  1. May 30th, 2009 at 6:15 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    This is called jumping to conclusions on the basis of a little knowledge and making imaginary criticism (e.g. “HMGA has placed Kanzul-ummal above all the sahih and sunan books, not to mention the Koran.”) and worse still, being absolutely certain of those wrong conclusions.

    Kanz-ul-Ummal is, I believe, a compilation of reports from earlier books of hadith, just as Mishkat and Riyadh as-Saaliheen are, which are included in that list in your post. Both Mishkat and Riyadh as-Saaliheen are available in English, the latter in fact translated by Sir Zafrullah Khan, and you can see that these are selections of hadith from earlier books.

    Maulana Muhammad Ali compiled his A Manual of Hadith in 1944. It does not mean that the hadith reports given in that book were not known to the world till 1944! 

    The hadith you are questioning is in fact in the Mustadrak of Hakim, which in your list is book number 6. It has been reported through three different companions, namely, Aishah, Fatima and Ibn Umar.

    There is a part before your quotation as follows: “The Holy Prophet said during the illness which led to his death, ‘Gabriel used to go through the whole Quran with me once every year, but this year he has done its twice and he has informed me… [then your quotation]”. This first part is proved from other authentic reports.

    Now the statement that every prophet lives to half the age of the preceding one seems strange. I was already aware that according to the Bible the earliest prophets had incredibly long life spans, and the Quran (29:14) repeats the statement of the Bible that Noah lived for 950 years! But I have now found that Christian writers have pointed out that there is a pattern of decreasing life spans of Old Testament prophets and personalities, finally ending with a life span of 120 years!

    Ponder over the Christian article at this link.

    Under a table of ages of various people, the author says:

    “From this table it is apparent that man’s age has fallen from between 777 and 969 before the flood [of Noah] , to around 339 – 565 just after the flood to around 120-208 from Nahor to Moses and then to a maximum of 120 years after Moses. ”

    Later he writes: “Extrapolating this we deduce that there must have been 4 divisions by 2 to get us from 960 years down to 120 years. So we then have maximum ages of 120, 240, 480 and 960 with a few exceptions.”

    What he is saying is that you can place these Biblical prophets and personalities in chronological order into four categories, and the maximum ages in these category are about 960, 480, 240 and 120 respectively! He has even put this sequence in the title of the article.

    Isn’t it possible that this may have been noticed in ancient times, and the Holy Prophet was referring to this when he said that the age of each prophet was a half of his predecessor?

    Anyhow, it seems extraordinary that here is a Christian writer presumably unaware of this hadith, actually writing the same thing as in the hadith about the halving of the life span of prophets.

    The Christian writer of course does not consider Jesus as a mortal human being. But if Jesus is considered human, then according to the author’s analysis as well as the statement attributed to God in Genesis 6:3, one would expect Jesus to have a maximum life span of 120 years. Genesis 6:3 says: “And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” Maybe Jesus fulfilled this exactly.

    Whether the earlier prophets did reach such extraordinary ages such as 950 years is a different question, but no Muslim can deny that the Quran could be said to support the age of Noah as 950 years. After all, this is in the Quran, not Kanz-ul-Ummal!


  2. Noah’s age.
    “but no Muslim can deny that the Quran could be said to support the age of Noah as 950 years.”

    Unfortunately, all such Muslims don’t understand by it Quran means Noah’s teaching survived or were followed for 950 years.

    A matter of great concern for Qadiani Jamaat:
    Qadiani Jamaat holds belief that prophethood did not end with Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, and HMGA was a prophet and prophets will keep on coming in future.  If this is the case then according to Hadith quoted by Bashir (Kanzulummal Vol. 11 page 479), Qadiani’s next prophet will have life span of 30 years and the one after that will live for 15 years and then next 7.5 years and then next 3.45 years…. question is when these future prophets will attain age of maturity and when they will start their ministry??


  3. The AMI and MGF wrote that 950 is not the years of his actual life, but the years of his dispensation.  I am not sure if HMGA or Noorudin sahib had ever commentated on this verse or not. 

    M. ali wrote almost the exact same thing.  He also wrote that 950 years was the time between Noah and Abraham. 

    I disagree with both interpretations.  I think this tradition from Kanzul-ummal is a fabricated one.   Was the time-frame between the HP and HMGA 120 years? I think not.  Both groups need to realize that HMGA’s guessed on this one, he also guessed on other things….or in better words he used his ijtihad, in my opinion, his ijtihad was incorrect.   

    This is where i found the reference in question:
    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/qandeel/index.htm?page=66#top

    Here is the story:  HMGA must have read Kanzul-ummul(KU) at some point in his life.  KU was probably written in urdu, HMGA’s father must have bought him this book at some point.   Once HMGA found a tomb in Srinagar that could possibly be that of jesus’ he had to come up with a theory as to how jesus made it to India.  He thought this particular tradition was suprislingly accurate.  He decided to use it.  Strangely enough he never gave a reference.  HMGA always wrote “hadith”, he never wrote KU.  

    It was rougly 1899 when HMGA decided to use this reference from KU.  But, this is an incorrect method of using tradition.  When using tradition a muslim must use the most authentic books first.  Here are the rules.  First, check the koran, then Bukhari, then Muslim, then the other 4 sunan books.  Then, if a muslim is going to use any other book, whatever tradition that they find it must also be in the sahih or sunan books.  If not, it must be rejected.  THESE ARE THE RULES.

    HMBMA did a simliar thing, HMBMA used a tradition from Suyuti as the basis for the theory of the continuation of prophethood.  HMBMA placed the  saying of ayesha that Suyuti reports above all the reports in Bukhari, Muslim, etc etc etc.  It is as if this report by Suyuti is more authentic than all the reports in BUkhari and muslim combined. 

    This is not the method to define theory in islam.    I have only been studying Islam for 4 years, yet I know the rules.  When a scholar doesnt follow these guidelines, what am I supposed to think? 


  4. May 30th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    This is total conjecture.

    “KU was probably written in urdu, HMGA’s father must have bought him this book at some point.”

    This is the kind of absurd statement reminiscent of the things which Western orientalists make up about the Holy Prophet Muhammad (“Muhammad must have known, someone must have told him” etc.)

    The Urdu language didn’t exist in the time of the compiler of KU! It is a selection of hadith reports from earlier hadtih collections.

    Bashir says the rule is: “First, check the koran, then Bukhari, then Muslim, then the other 4 sunan books.”

    So anything outside these books which supplies further details of what is supported by these sources cannot be accepted! If these sources show that Jesus has died, and something outside these sources tells us that he lived to the age of 120 years, it cannot be accepted, even though it is only filling in a further detail.

    But the simple question is: why should someone fabricate a hadith that Jesus lived to 120 years? Considering that at the time KU was compiled (15th century C.E.) the belief that Jesus went up alive to heaven was thoroughly established among Muslims, and his being alive was not at all any issue among them, why should someone fabricate this saying? Hadith reports were fabricated to support someone’s interests (usually a ruler’s interest). Who gained by this fabrication?

    Now we know that after four years’ study of Islam, Bashir has surpassed Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the knowledge of principles of interpretation of Islam. Then all those anti-Ahmadiyya Ulama who study Islam all their lives must have left Hazrat Mirza sahib a long way behind!


  5. ZA is correct, most of what I wrote is conjecture.  But didnt HMGA do the same?  Show me a revelation which helped HMGA in this respect.   

    1.  What language was  KU written in?  The writer of this book was from India, what other language could he have written this book in? Check this link, http://www.alislam.org/library/books/qandeel/index.htm?page=64#top, it looks like either urdu or arabic. 

    2.  So when do you think that HMGA got this book(KU)?   I was just guessing when I wrote what I wrote.  Did someone else know about this reference, and was it presented to HMGA?  I dont know!!! 
    Unfortunatley, Indians dont ask as many questions as americans do.  I know that if i was an ahmadi from 1899 to 1908 I would have had pages full of questions at all times. 

    3.  I didnt develop the rules on studying Islam, I just recognized them.  M. ali argued(in terms of prophethood) that you have to take the plentiful traditions and accept them, as opposed to the scarce traditions. 

    3.a.  When commentating the ayesha tradition, M. ali wrote:

    “This saying of Hazrat Aishah, having no authority at all, (never reported in any book of hadith), cannot have any value against the forty authentic Traditions of the Holy Prophet, except that it should be interpreted in such a way as to conform with the other Traditions.”

    3.b.  The idea that Jesus lived until 120 does not conform to any other tradition, thus it must be rejected.

    3.c.  The idea that prophets live to half the age of their predessor does not conform with any other tradition, thus it must be rejected. 

    4.  I dont know what Ala’Uddin Ali al-Muttaqi ibn Hisam-Uddin al-Hindi’s motive was??  I dont think that we will ever know what it was.  KU needs to be searched for consistencies/inconsistencies. 

    5.  I do not consider myself as having more knowledge than HMGA, that is impossible.  If I was rich and grew up in India where I was taught arabic, urdu and persian than maybe I had a chance at that title.  Anyhow, I find it very odd that HMGA would base his theory that Jesus lived until 120 on a whim.  By whim I mean he found a drop in a bucket and used that drop to formulate a theory, that’s my gripe. 

    In conclusion, HMGA never gave his reference, he only mentioned “tradition”.  I thought that maybe this report was in Bukhari or Muslim.  When I learned that this wasnt the case, I was taken aback, should I have not been? 


  6. May 31st, 2009 at 8:29 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    1. “The writer of this book was from India, what other language could he have written this book in?” Well, there is Gujrati, Bengali, Tamil, and dozens of other Indian languages. As I wrote before, Urdu did not exist when KU was compiled. This book is a selection and compilation of reports in a variety of earlier hadith books.

    Ulama of India wrote books in Arabic and Persian as these were their literary languages.

    2. This hadith occurs in other sources, for example in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. It is most likely that Hazrat Mirza sahib came across it in this standard tafsir.

    3. In the quote from Maulana Muhammad Ali you gave, it says: “except that it should be interpreted in such a way as to conform with the other Traditions.”.

    To say that Jesus died at the age of 120 years perfectly conforms with the statements in the Quran and Bukhari which prove that Jesus died! If the Quran, Bukhari, etc. proved that Jesus never died, then certainly the report that Jesus died at the age of 120 years  would have to be rejected as against the higher sources. Likewise, if the Quran and Bukhari etc, stated that Jesus died at 40 years of age, then the 120 years reports would have to be rejected.

    3c. As I showed from that Christian website, it is likely that the idea was in circulation that the ages of the prophets had been decreasing (and that if you divide prophets into groups, then the maximum ages in the groups had been halving from one to the next). The Holy Prophet, on being informed that Jesus died at 120 years and he was about to die at just over 60 years, may have therefore made a reference to that idea, without necessarily agreeing with it as a general statement.

    4. It is perfectly obvious that no Muslim could possibly fabricate this statement because the belief that Jesus is alive in heaven was well established and non-controversial at that time.

    5. Many opponents of Hazrat Mirza sahib were in that position of knowledge that you mention. They couldn’t disprove his standpoint.

    Finally, the term hadith or hadith report certainly does not mean that it is contained in the sahih collections. There are, for example, hadith reports given in commentaries of the Quran.

    It was quite common in Muslim literature not to give the full reference to the source (e.g. the exact book of hadith).


  7. All non-traditions should not be relied upon, thats my opinion. 

    ZA:  thank you for your time, I know that u r a busy man.  Anyhow,  will we ever know where and how HMGA came across this data?  I think this question will remain unanswered.  All we can do is guess. 
    Maybe Noorudin brought this to the attention of HMGA.  HMGA should have explained this himself.  It wasnt divine revelation that led HMGA to believe this, it was Ijtihad, ijtihad can be incorrect. 

    Remember HMGA also thought that Jesus’ birth was miraculous.  Obviously he was incorrect, so HMGA being wrong shouldnt be such a shocking development. 

    The fact is that HMGA used a non-hadith to prove something that was against a common belief of muslims.  That’s my gripe. 

    You mentioned Ibn Kathir, what were his beliefs regarding Jesus?  Do u have the exact reference where this “120 years old” thing is mentioned?  What verse was Ibn Kathir referring to?

    I think that HMGA relying on a non-tradition to prove that Jesus lived until 120 is just like HMBMA using the famous saying of Ayesha to prove that MORE prophets can and will come. 


  8. Ibn Kathir also wrote this about Hazrat Isa:
    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=8333

    “When they surrounded `Isa’s home and he thought that they would surely capture him, Allah saved him from them, raising him up from the house to heaven. Allah put the image of `Isa on a man who was in the house; when the unjust people went in the house while it was still dark, they thought that he was `Isa. They captured that man, humiliated and crucified him. They also placed thorns on his head. However, Allah deceived these people. He saved and raised His Prophet from them, leaving them in disarray in the darkness of their transgression, thinking that they had successfully achieved their goal.”

    I am looking for where and how he could have wrote that Isa lived to 120.    The above explanation is totally ridiculous.  But that is really what all muslims believed.  All  religions have ridiculous beliefs. 


  9. Brief divergence from the from the topic at hand to clarify “illusion”

    Illusion: “perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature”

    In psychiatry: illusion – misinterpretation of a stimulus e.g. in dim light, taking a rope for a snake – a normal phenomenon; hallucination – perception without a stimulus e.g. in daylight, ghost sighting – a psychotic symptom.

    Thus misidentifying a face in dark is plain illusion not a supernatural miracle. The miracle is in the survival of Jesus to achieve his full prophet-hood, beyond the initial six years in the land of Israel, else Jesus PBUH is no more than just a failure in Bible. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed actually rehabilitates Jesus by firstly using his “keen eye” to identify a lead about Jesus’s age of 120, then hypothesizing Jesus’s travel to Kashmir and then objectifying it by Nooruddin’s research about his burial place. Such detailed work justifiably proves the age of Jesus under discussion.

    Interesting thing would be to disprove Mirza Sahib’s overall conclusion of Jesus’s death, else this discussion is heading towards hair splitting polemic. Now that we know that there is some mention of Jesus’s age of 120, no matter how unauthentic, will any Muslim dare to take it further and in the process become target of the Muslim world for denying that Jesus is alive and well for millennia. Any takers? Muslim world has no problem with Jesus living thousands of years instead of paltry 120. How ridiculous!

    Through my personal knowledge, it is not unusual to come across centurions in Baltistan region of Pakistan, which is next to Ladakh in India. No surprises here if Jesus lived up to 120 years. It is in Ladakh’s Buddhist monastery where scripts record the arrival of Jesus. Ladakh and Baltistan are part of Kashmir.


  10. June 2nd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    1. This is not a “non-tradition” since the words are attributed to the Holy Prophet Muhammad. The saying of Aishah that you mention, however, is a saying of Aishah only and is not attributed to the Holy Prophet.

    2. It is interesting to note that the famous Rashid Rida of Egypt (see here for brief biography) in his commentary of the Quran has quoted from Hazrat Mirza sahib’s Arabic book Al-Huda wal-tabsira li-man yara certain passages relating to Jesus being in Kashmir and his tomb there, and concluded that this view is not against reason and logic.

    The whole section by Rashid Rida is quoted in an issue of Paigham Sulh of 1935.

    (Incidentally, Muhammad Asad says in his Message of the Quran that he has largely followed Rashid Rida’s interpretations.)

    What makes Rashid Rida’s view even more interesting is that the Hazrat Mirza sahib wrote the above book to refute the criticism and ridicule that Rashid Rida had made of an earlier Arabic book by Hazrat Mirza sahib (Ijaz-ul-Masih). So it is quite unexpected that Rashid Rida gave the Kashmir theory such sympathetic treatment.

    While in the book Al-Huda… Hazrat Mirza sahib has rejected Rashid Rida’s criticism and mockery, and mentioned how pained he has been by it, and how the Ulama in India gleefully repeated his critical comments throughout the country, yet he also writes the following, which I paraphrase below.

    HM writes that perhaps RR has attacked him because he thinks that he is defending the Quran. If that is the case, then RR will be rewarded by Allah for it, and will be judged by his intention. How can it be a sin for a person to abuse me (asks HM), if he does so in order to defend the Quran and not to humiliate me? Such a man is a defender of Islam. (For reference see Ruhani Khaza’in, v. 18, p. 265-266; published 1902, i.e. after 1901 for those who care about it!)

    How generous and magnanimous! Hazrat Mirza sahib is willing to accept abuse against himself if the abuser thinks he is defending Islam and the Quran! He even writes that such a person, because of his love for the word of God, is destined for Jannah.

    Perhaps this attitude made Rashid Rida sympathetic towards Hazrat Mirza sahib’s views.


  11.                      THE RULES WHEN STUDYING ISLAM

    1.  The first thing a researcher must do is consult the Koran. 
    2.  The second source is the 6 books of tradition.
    3.  The third source is the other books of tradition.  
    4.  The last source is the tafsir’s.  

    Is this not the rules?  If I am wrong then please tell me.  I have been wrong in the past, quite a bit actually.  

    I think my gripe is a valid one.  HMGA used a secondary source to prover the death of Jesus.  This against the principles of understanding Islam.  

    I think that HMGA guessed in terms of the tomb and age of Jesus.  HMGA was wrong about the birth of Jesus, why not his death?  

    FYI:  Ibn Kathir heavily referenced Tabari’s commentary on the Holy Koran.  This proves that Tabari was a great source of information.  I think Tabari’s work is monumental and it should not dis-regarded in any shape and form. 

    I have learned Islam through the books of M. ali.  M. ali argued that the methodology of HMBMA was incorrect.  I understand your point that a saying of ayesha is different from a saying of the HP.  I understand that, but I am still critical.  of this non-tradition. 

    Will we ever know as to how HMGA came across this theory that Jesus lived until 120?  Will this question go unanswered? 

    If you remember I critisized HMBMA for not revealing as to when he first read EGKI.  This is a very important point.  This factoid could reveal the truth about the split. 


  12. June 2nd, 2009 at 9:54 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    You write: “HMGA used a secondary source to prove the death of Jesus.”

    I am surprised that you are unaware that it was principally and foremost on the basis of the Quran that Hazrat Mirza sahib proved the death of Jesus. That is why he put forward those 30 verses of the Quran. Always the first evidence we provide on this question (and other issues of course) is what the Quran says.

    When he challenged his opponents to debate with him the death of Jesus, he wrote that the Quran would be considered as the highest authority, followed by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

    There are hadith reports in authentic collections saying that such and such a verse of the Quran has been abrogated by such and such other verse. General Muslim opinion accepts those reports as correct. We don’t accept them, because they are against the Quran.

    The “official Saudi” Quran translation by Al-Hilali and Muhsin Khan says in footnotes under several verses that the verse has been abrogated by some other verse, and quotes hadith reports in its support. We don’t agree in any of those cases.


  13. June 3rd, 2009 at 11:37 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Regarding what is Kanz-ul-Ummal, this question is answered on a Sunni forum at this link.

    First there is a brief answer as follows:

    Kanz al-Ummal fi Sunan wal Aqwal wal Afwal, is the largest available unique collection of Ahadith/Athar by the Hanafi Imam: Ali ibn Husamud-Din al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, who died in the year 975 AH. It contains more than 46,000 narrations composed from many individual earlier collections. It is in essence a continuation of Imam al-Suyuti’s Hadith collections, Jami al-Saghir, its Zawa’id and Jami al-Kabir (Jam al-Jawami). The Kanz was printed more than 100 years ago in Hyderabad, India. I have seen that earliest printed copy in Birmingham University, UK, more than 12 years ago during my student days. It is very bulky and the pages are huge in size.”

    Later on the page there is a longer answer, with more detail and slightly amending the above.


  14. Sunni Student 786 wrote:

    Jazakallahu Khair for the info brother Abul Hasan.

    After reading your reply, another question comes to mind, that being have any of the Ulema undertaken the task of critically examining and classifying the reports contained therein on the basis of their authenticity?

    I have heard certain people quote “Kanzul Ummal” at times, although those Hadith are usually of disputed authenticity when they are found nowhere else save for the Kanzul Ummal, so I’d like to know if anyone has done a “Tahqiq” of its hadith.

    And I would also like to know whether Ali ibn Husamud-Din al-Muttaqi al-Hindi ever mentions the individual, earlier collections, from which he took many of this hadith/athar, especially those that are not to be found anywhere else these days.

    Regardless, thank you once more for the info.


  15. I wish that other people could join us in our discussion.  Isnt this interesting info?  Havent I raised very interesting questions?  Sometimes i feel that this forum is a study group for only me and ZA.  I wish that others could join us. 

    MANSY WROTE:
    assalamulaikum everyone, jazakallah sidi Abul Hasan for your enlightening answer, I hope our beloved sheikh Abul Hasan doesn’t mind if I make a slight amendment to his answer. The kanzul ummal is not a continuation of imam Suyuti’s work; in fact it is a replica of the three books of imam suyuti mentioned by sheikh Abul Hasan, but only in a different form. let me give the history of this book

    Imam Suyuti wrote a book where he collected more than a hundred thousand hadiths (excluding the isnad), he called this book jamul jawami (also known as jamiul kabir). His intention was to collect as many hadiths as he can and give easy access to them. He divided the book into 2 sections. section 1 is to do with the sayings of the prophet (saw). The hadiths in this section were arranged in alphabetical order. the second section he dedicated to the actions and tacit approvals of the prophet. the hadiths in this section were arranged according to the names of sahabas starting with the ashara mubashara. Imam suyuti’s sources for this work numbers over a hundred. he developed an abbreviation system when alluding to his sources, e.g. kh = Bukhari, hb = ibn Hibban, ts = tabrani fil awsat, q = bayhaqi sunan al-kubra etc. It should be noted that hadiths found in this book range from sound to fabricated

    Imam suyuti then extracted all the concise sayings of the prophet (saw) (section 1 in his jamul jawami) which he thought to be acceptable (from sahih to daeef) and added a few more which are not found in his jamul jawami, and arranged them alphabetically. he called this jamius saghir. he still maintained the same sources and same abbreviation system, with the exception of the letter q. where the letter qaf in jamul jawami meant bayhaqi, in jamius saghir it means muttafaq alahy,and bayhaqi sunan al-kubra is abbreviated as hq.

    He then collected a few more of the sayings of the prophet (saw) from jamul jawami and added a few more from himself, and called this book zawaid ala jamius saghir.

    Sheikh ali muttaqi al-hindi saw this excellent piece of work; however, he found that alphabetically arranging the hadiths might lead to finding hadiths in this book to be extremely excruciating because:

    1. someone might not know the words of the hadith in arabic
    2. someone might not know the beginning of a hadith
    3. someone might know a hadith, however the version of the hadith that he knows might be different from the one used by imam suyuti.

    therefore sheikh ali muttaqi decided to re-organise the works of imam suyuti according to subject matter of fiqh such as tahara, salat, zakat, haj etc. he did this in 5 phases, as sheikh abul hasan has mentioned.

    the end product of which is kanzul ummal fi sunanil aqwal wal afal.

    As for the strenght of the hadiths in this book, then it follows imam suyutis system.

    Imam Suyuti rahmatullahi alayh in his jamul jawami has made very broad categories for the strength of hadiths. the reason why he did this was because he was too busy in compiling the book, critically analysing every hadith would have taken too much of his time.

    the broad categories of imam suyuti:

    1. Hadith sahih: all hadiths found in: Bukhari, muslim, muwatta malik, mustadrak hakim, sahih ibn hibban, al-mukhtara by diya al-maqdasi, sahih ibn khuzayma, sahih abi awana, sahih ibn sakan, al-muntaqa ibn jarud, and the mustakhrajat on the sahihayn such as isfrayini and ismaili.

    2. Hadith daeef: all hadiths found in: al-duafa uqayli, al-kamil ibn adi, tarikh baghdad kahtib, tarikh dimishq ibn asker, nawadir al-usul hakim tirmizi, tarikh nisapur hakim, tarikh ibn al-jarud, musnad al-firdaws daylami.

    3. other than the above books, hadiths coming in any other books such as the sunans, imam Suyuti has mentioned the strength, however, he is not always correct in his analysis.

    Sheikh ali muttaqi used this very system per se.

    Although i haven’t heard of anybooks written on the verification of hadiths in kanzul ummal, imam Abdur Rauf Manawi has critically analysed the hadiths of jamius saghir in his commentary of jamius saghir known as al-faydul al-qadir. Also sheikh Albani has done some work on the jamius saghir, in his sahihul jami and daiful jami. As far as the hadiths of the actions of the prophet in jamiul kabir is concerned, and the same goes for the hadiths of actions in kanzul ummal and the section called al-ikmal in kanzul ummal are concerned then unfortunately the analysis of these hadiths are scattered in the works of the hadith scholars such as Iraqi and Ibn hajr.

    Note: kanzul ummal is not a primary source therefore it is not enough to mention a hadith and give reference to it.

    hope that answers the question
    wassalam


  16. Interesting and informing as this whole discussion may be, I fail to see the point of it.  HMGA writes that Jesus lived to 120 years based on a Hadith; as this position is not contradictory to the Quran, what’s the problem?  Lets say that HMGA did not properly cite this Hadith, or that the Hadith is a weak tradition; but since the Hadith is an extension of a position HMGA proved from the Quran (a position that stands regardless of the veracity of this particular Hadith), and is not by itself being used to change or introduce a fundamental point of Islam, what’s the big deal?


  17. HMGA broke his own standard!  HMGA issued a challenge in which he listed the criteria for effectively studying Islam.  That is the Koran, and the 2 books of Sahih hadith.  The other 4 books which are Sunan are considered a tertiary method of studying Islam. 

    So why is he going fishing so to speak with the idea that Jesus lived until 120?  If this was in bukhari or muslim than maybe this report has weight, but it is not even in the 3rd level of hadith books.  

    Jesus living until 120 was the piece of the puzzle that HMGA was missing, but, by adding this piece to his new found idea that Jesus was actually dead, he discredited his idea, in my opinion.  

    The Koran was vague in terms what happened to Jesus.  Why wasnt the HP told that Jesus was dead?  Why wasnt the HP told that Jesus lived until age 120?  Allah could have revealed this in the Koran to Muhammad.  HMGA would not have needed to find this for us.  The answer was simple.   Allah could have told the mujadids that Jesus was dead.    Muslims were forced to interpret vague passages, this state of conjecture led all the muslim scholars to conclude that Jesus must be alive in heaven, awaiting a time to return.  I cant blame the muslims for thier dilemma.  I am actually sympathetic to their situation.   

    Jesus being alive in heaven is a muslim belief that rivals the finality of prophethood.  This belief has been en-trenched in muslim thought since the time of Bukhari.  Check all the tafsirs from Tabari to Maudoodi, they all thought that Jesus was alive.  This is an unquestionable FACTOID.   Has anybody checked the tafsir by Tabari?  Im sure he wrote that Jesus was alive somewhere.  Ibn Kathir referenced heavily in terms of Tabaris work. 

    All of these factors must be studied when considering if Jesus is alive or not. 


  18. June 4th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I now completely fail to understand Bashir’s point. How can saying that Jesus died at a certain age discredit the idea that he died? Are you saying that no further and extra knowledge about a Quranic issue can be accepted from sources of lesser authority?

    (Example: The Quran says that the body of the Pharaoh of Moses was preserved after his death. If history, which is not even hadith, gives evidence that a certain mummy today is of that Pharaoh then would you say that this cannot be accepted because the Quran or the Holy Prophet never specified where exactly that body was preserved?)

    The Quran is not at all vague that Jesus died. The Holy Prophet was certainly told that Jesus had died, which is why the Holy Prophet said (as reported in Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, under Sura 5) that on the Day of Judgment he will make the same statement that Jesus will make, as recorded in the Quran 5:117, namely, that after my death I had no knowledge of what my followers did after me.

    The Quran, the Holy Prophet, and the Sahaba believed that Jesus had died. The wrong belief of later Muslims was only an academic matter, of no importance, till it was exploited by Christian missionaries. That’s why it didn’t need any mujaddid to correct it before.


  19. ZA: I appreciate the oppurtunity at healthy discussion. 

    IF HMGA WAS WRONG ABOUT THE BIRTH OF JESUS.  DIDNT HE USE THE KORAN TO COME TO THIS CONCLUSION?   If HMGA can be wrong, which M. ali proved that he could be wrong, then why not on other matters.  Didnt HMGA use his ijtihad on 99% of Islamic matters?  Allah told him that Jesus was dead, that is a fact.  But allah didnt tell him how.  HMGA used his ijtihad to figure that out, did he not?

    I must wonder, if Nicholas Notovitch would not have come along, then would HMGA ever think that Jesus ever went to India?  Why didnt allah just reveal to HMGA, “…jesus’ tomb is in srinagar, he lived until age 120”.  Isnt that easy? 

    If the HP would have written a tasfsir of the Koran before he died he would not be arguing anything.  This defiency is the problem that we have today.  Tabari’s tafsir of the Koran is the oldest tafsir in existence, this is my best guess.  I have not seen it, Ibn Kathir used it heavily as a source of good knowledge.   Ahmadis discredit him, so do sunnis/shiites.  Im sure that he wrote that Jesus ascended, and will descend. 

    My point is this.  Nobody knows how old Jesus was when he died.  It could be 40, 50, or any other number.  The answer to this question is inconclusive.   HMGA used guesswork to come to this conclusion.  He used sources that he should not have used.  HMGA should have written that MAYBE jesus lived until 120.  Instead, HMGA wrote that Jesus definetley lived until 120–thats the problem.  This shows a pattern of developing an idea then setting out to find evidence to prove that idea. 

    What proof do you have that the sahaba of the HP believed that Jesus was dead?  Did they write any Tafsir’s?  What proof do you have that the HP believed the same? 

    The belief that Jesus is to return again does not exist anywhere in the Koran.  My opinion is that this entire belief is fabricated.  This is my opinion, I am entitled to an opinion. 

    Please understand, I am looking for clear and concise wording, not vague usage of arabic words.  There should have been a chapter in the Koran based on the second coming of Jesus.  This would have solved all the problems that we have today. 

    FYI:  The muslims believe that when Jesus returns he will be that same prophet that he was before.  The AAIIL dont believe that. 


  20. Before I forget.  Until KU is checked for authenticity, we can count on it as a good source for anything, not to mention the sayings and doings of our Prophet. 

    I remember that Hazrat Noorudin made a comment that the book of Imam Ahmad had lots of good hadith, but it also contained many fabricated hadith reports.  I cant remember where I read this.  

    My point is that it is not a new revelation that hadith books contain fabricated reports.  

    M. ali quoted sahih Muslim, he quotes a hadith in which it is written that there was a chapter of the Koran which contained over 200 verses, but the muslims somehow forgot all the verses except one.  I have not found this particular hadith as of yet.  If anybody can find it, then please let me know.  xobashir@hotmail.com 


  21. Maulana Muhammad Ali did not “prove” HMGA wrong on the issue of birth of Jesus.  He had a different opinion..only Allah knows who was “wrong” or “right”.  Keep in mind that adopting either position on the birth of Jesus does not change any thing….which is the opposite of when we talk about the death of Jesus.  Also keep in mind that in my opinion Maulana Muhammad Ali’s interpretation regarding birth of Jesus (among other issues), is in itself heavily influenced by HMGA’s phislophical explanation of the relationship between the physical and the spiritual, between nature and the Quran.


  22. One of the above post mentions: “The muslims believe that when Jesus returns he will be that same prophet that he was before. The AAIIL dont believe that”

    What is the basis of such a claim by the “muslims?”
    How will they determine that such a Jesus will be the real deal?
    Assume for a moment, that someone today makes the claim of being that Jesus? What will you expect of him? What will be the basis of acceptance or rejection?

    Chances are that such a claimant will be rejected out right because he will challenge the status quo of Muslims and confront Christianity, and thus be a pain for the clergy of both. And he will not be in the image that we are familiar with from Christian and/or Muslim mythology or Hollywood fiction. What a disappointment!

    Answer is in the Quran:

    35:42. These people used to swear by Allâh by their most ardent oaths that if ever a Warner should come to them from Allâh they would be more rightly guided than anyone of the nations. But when a Warner did come to them this (coming of his) only increased them in aversion,
    35:43. And made them behave arrogantly on the earth and devise evil schemes; yet evil scheming recoils on none but its authors. They are, then, only waiting that We should follow (the same) practice which We did (in dealing) with the peoples of old. And you will find no change in that law of Allâh, nor will you ever find the law of Allâh shifting from its course.

    Please refer to the following posts:

    Philosophy of Rejection of Divines – A Quranic view
    Standards for a Divine as outlined in Quran

    Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed fulfills the standards of the Quran as outlined in the above links.


  23. AS far as this statement goes:

    “statement that Jesus will make, as recorded in the Quran 5:117, namely, that after my death I had no knowledge of what my followers did after me.”

    If Jesus died at age 120, that changes this verse of the Koran.  Paul is the culprit who spread the wrong notions about Jesus, paul died roughly 67 A.D.  If Jesus died after Paul, then how does this make any sense.  Jesus must have died before Paul spread his thoughts about the divinity of Jesus. 

    Read this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus
    “Paul’s influence on Christian thinking arguably has been more significant than any other New Testament author.[16] Christianity is commonly said to owe as much to Paul as to Jesus.[11][17][18] Paul declared that faith in Christ made the Torah unnecessary for salvation, exalted the Christian church as the body of Christ, and depicted the world outside the Church as under judgment”

    HMGA, is claiming that Jesus outlived all of his companions, Jesus was alive when the chrstians thought of him as GOD.  Why didnt Allah send Jesus back to Israel to fix this problem?  Or at least send a messenger to Israel.

    Where did the Wahy Nubuwwat that jesus received go?  If Jesus received Wahy nubuwwat for 90 years(30 to 120), where is the rest of his book?  There are many other questions that I could raise. 

    This story just doesnt add up.  The early followers of HMGA did not ask enough questions.  Now I am stuck wondering…..


  24. June 5th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    Bashir’s first point has for some time been thrown as a challenge to Ahmadis by the anti-Ahmadiyya groups. I replied to that challenge and you can read my reply at this link.


  25. ZA:  I read your response as linked above.  There are still some questions that I have.  Didnt Paul lay the foundations of the belief that Jesus was divine?  Didnt this happen while Jesus was in India?  Why did Jesus live an additional 90 years, what mission did he need to complete?  What mission could have lasted so long? 

    I understand that the Nicene Creed was adopted in 325, that gives your argument alot of weight.  But, didnt HMGA write that Paul sowed the seeds of the divinity of Jesus?  I think the idea that Jesus was divine exploded in the era of the Nicene Creed.  Did it exist before then?  I’m sure it did.  Can I prove or disprove these notions?  Probably not! 

    Anyhow, the Koran only tells us that Jesus was not slew on the cross, it says that Jesus escaped, then god caused Jesus to dieof natural causes, then Jesus was raised(raffa) to Allah.  This is the gist of the story.  To say that he lived until 120 is a stretch. 

    The jurist are all in agreement in this matter, just like they are in agreement on the topic of prophethood.  Has any Jurist ever concluded that Jesus was dead?  If so, WHO?

    There is a  major gray area.  Is Jesus alive or dead? How was he raised to Allah.  Did Allah cause him to die, then he raised him?  Will Jesus be brought back to life for his second return?  These were the contradictions that existed in muslim thought.  I cant blame the muslims for not knowing what happened to Jesus, their data was limited. 


  26. MY CONCLUSION

    HMGA claimed that Jesus lived until age 120.  He never gave a reference point.  He just claimed that it was from tradition (STRIKE 1).  We will never know as to how HMGA came across this info.  Was it through a tafsir (as ZA initially thought) or was it through one of many in-authentic books of tradition?  In other words, how did he formulate this theory, what led him to his conclusion?

    HMGA was wrong about the birth of Jesus.  He was also wrong about the location of the tomb of Jesus, once he stated that it was in galilea,  then syria, eventually because of the work of Nicholas Notovitch HMGA settled on Kashmir. 

    In 1891 or so, HMGA gave a challenge to the local muslim scholars, in this challenge he gave the method when researching islamic thought.  The highest standard of data is the two Sahih books+koran, all the other tradition books dont compare to this standard. 

    HMGA used a 4th level source to prove the age of Jesus’ death.  This is my point.  It is actually a fact. HMGA should have said that he wasnt sure of the exact date that Jesus died.  Instead he found an unauthentic tradition to prove his point. 

    We are not even sure as to what context this un-authentic tradition comes from.  100% of the scholars from Muhammad to HMGA all unanimously agreed on the idea that Jesus was alive in heaven, awaiting a return to this world to destroy christianity and make the jews into muslims. 

    I thinked HMGA stretched his arguments a tad bit.  On the tomb, as well as the the age at death.  HMGA showed a behavior of coming to a conclusion, then looking for the explanation.  Ijtihad is a hard thing to control or even understand.  Ijtihad can also be full errors, see the birth of Jesus by HMGA. 


  27. I seem to have made a mistake.  HMGA did list his reference, kind of, not exactly, he writes about other references from KU, but not the age thing, or at least not directly. 
    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Jesus-in-India.pdf
    69/164

    “Reliable reports in the Hadith show that the Holy Prophet said that Jesus was 125 years of age. Besides, all the sects of Islam believe that Jesus had two unique things about him — things which are not to be found in any other prophet, namely: (1) he lived to a full old age, i.e., to 125 years; (2) he travelled in many parts of the world and was therefore called the ‘travelling prophet’. It is evident that if he had been raised to the skies when he was only 33 years old the report of ‘125 years’ could not have been true, nor could he have travelled so much while he was only thirty-three. Not only are these reports found in the reliable Books of Hadith. They have been so well-known among all the Muslim sects that it is difficult to think of anything which has been more widely known among them.
    Kanz-ul-Ummal (Volume 2) which is a comprehensive Book of Hadith, has on page 34 a Hadith from Abu Huraira: God directed Jesus (on whom be peace) ‘0 Jesus! Move from one place to another’ — go from one country to another lest thou shouldst be recognised and persecuted.

    I noticed an error that HMGA made, Kanzul-ummal listes Jesus’ age at 120, but HMGA writes it as 125.  It looks like HMGA made a mistake, maybe he didnt remember the exact number.  It’s not a big deal, am I the first person to ever notice this error?

    The aaiil have not translated “Jesus in India”, I can’t cross-check this age discrepency. 

    1.  What other sects of Islam is he refferring to?
    2.  How is KU considered a reliable book of tradition?
    3.  What other sect believes that Jesus lived to 120 or 125?

    OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT A QUOTE FROM A TAFSIR 

    4. If this hadith was so well known, why did HMGA wait 8 years after learning that Jesus was dead to give us his age.

    5. Where were these hadith reports prior to 1899?

    HMGA should have eluded to these hadith reports in 1891, that was the time when Allah told him that Jesus was dead, in fact, HMGA didnt mention these “widely known” reports until after he wrote that Jesus’ tomb was in India.

    6. Did these “widely known” reports not exist until 1899?


  28. June 9th, 2009 at 9:58 am
    From Zahid Aziz:

    I may ask, What answer does your Jamaat give to these questions, which possesses so many scholars and so many resources?

    If he had proved only from the Quran and Hadith that Jesus has died, this would not have been an argument to convince Christians (as they don’t believe any Quranic concept about Jesus, e.g. that he did not claim to be the son of God). Therefore he tried to prove it from history. The only way of showing practically that he was not divine is to show him buried in the ground.

    The criteria of finding something in the Quran first, then in sahih hadith etc. which applies to determining religious beliefs, does not apply in the same way here, because we are not determining a belief that a Muslim must hold. Where a prophet died, where he is buried and how old he was, are not doctrines of religion. Therefore, as long as we are not going against the Quran and hadith in some respect, we can use sources on a historical basis.

    Note also that Hazrat Mirza sahib left the book ‘Jesus in India’ as an incomplete manuscript while he tried getting more evidence of Jesus’ journey by sending a team to somewhere in the Iraq/Iran region. As that could not be arranged, the book was published after his death in an incomplete state. Therefore we cannot say that each and everything he wrote in it is his last and finally considered word.

    Since the late 1970s, several Western investigators have written books (‘Jesus died in Kashmir’, ‘Jesus lived in India’ etc) giving credence to this theory, from a historical, non-religious point of view. Then there was the BBC television documentary Did Jesus Die? in 2003 on this subject in which several Western professors of religious studies gave support to the credibility of this theory.


  29. May 2nd, 2018 at 7:19 pm
    From Victor Garrod:

    I have written two books, The Demise of Christianity and Did God Screw Up? Both books are talking about the "god" of Christianity, which does not exist.

    I believe Jesus the Islamic prophet died in Kashmir at the age of 120. The tomb can be opened and FOR SURE we can know the TRUTH.


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