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August 21st, 2009

Conversation with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad, translator of Holy Quran

By Rashid Jahangiri.

In April 2009 I talked on telephone with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib. We talked about 20 minutes. I thanked him for publishing a rational and modern translation and interpretation of Holy Quran. I specifically informed him that when I present his translation of Holy Quran to fellow Muslims, I don’t get accused of presenting Lahori-Ahmadiyya translation. And how this has made my life easy.

Dr. Shabbir sahib informed me, he has mashAllah converted over 16000 (sixteen thousand) non-Muslims, including couple of members of JihadWatch. I purchased his translation of Holy Quran and couple of other books.

Dr. Shabbir sahib was highly respectful of late Abdul Mannan Omar sahib, Khawaja Kamal Ud Din sahib, and Maulana Muhammad Ali sahib. He was highly appreciative of their works on Holy Quran and Islam. Dr. Shabbir also informed me that he talked to Mannan sahib few years ago.

I asked Dr. Shabbir sahib, in life we see a healthy tree of sweet mangos, which is capable of producing sweet mangos, but its fruit can get infected by insects and is totally wasted. As we see in case of prophet Noah’s son. But it is not possible for a sweet mango to grow on a tree, which produces some other kind of bitter fruit. So, keeping this reasoning, how is it possible that people like Mannan sahib, Kamal ud Din sahib, and Muhammad Ali sahib, towards whom you showed so much respect because of their works on Islam and knew religion so well, they not only get attracted to, rather become staunch followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib of Qadian? Dr. Shabir sahib was quiet and did not answer.

We talked about 1974, 2nd constitutional amendment that declared Ahmadis (both Lahori and Qadiani) a non-Muslim. Dr. shabbir sahib was of opinion that there was no need of this amendment, because it was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib who “first” declared Muslims as kafir so per hadith ‘fatwah takfir’ fell back on him. I informed him that in reality it was about 200 Muslim Ulama in India who issued a joint fatwah declaring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib a kafir. And Mirza sahib only applied hadith to point out to these opponent ulama that per hadith ‘fatwah takfir’ falls back on them and they subsequently become kafir. Dr. Shabbir sahib was quiet, and did not comment.

Dr. Shabbir sahib brought Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib writings into question.
I replied Mirza sahib had five kinds of audiences, i.e. Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sufia, and Atheists. So if we keep in our minds to what kind of audiences Mirza sahib is addressing, we are better able to understand him. Unfortunately, Muslim readers do not pay attention, while reading his books i.e. to which he is addressing and that’s were confusion originates. I gave him few examples.

I brought to Dr. Shabbir sahib attention that we see good percentage of Muslims, especially those living in Europe and Americas, are practically following Mirza sahib even if verbally they use abusive words for him. I told him, in my opinion, following 6 were Mirza sahib’s mission:
1- All reciters of Kalama-Shahada are Muslims.
2- No part of Holy Quran, not even a dot, is abrogated.
3- Allah SWT is living God. He has communicated with his chosen ones even after Rasul Allah SAWS. And this will continue.
4- Islam does not allow jihad with sword for its propagation.
5- Isa A.S. is physically dead. And will not return to earth.
6- Yajooj-Majooj and Dajjal is not supernatural animal.
Dr. Shabbir sahib did not object to any of above 6 points.

Dr. Shabir Ahmad wrote ‘Hashish From Qadian’. Dr Zahid Aziz sahib has written an article referring to this book, in ‘The Light—UK edition, May 2009’. See link here.

Based on my conversation with Dr. Shabbir sahib, I very much doubt if he has read Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib’s books. And even if he did, he did not read them carefully. And it is very likely his opinion of Hazrat Mirza sahib is based on his teacher’s opinion. I don’t know, as Shabbir sahib never mentioned to me, but this is what I have heard that he is student of Ghulam Ahmad Pervaiz sahib. And it is known fact that Pervaiz sahib was opponent of Mirza sahib and he has used strong language for him.

I will email this blog post to Dr. Shabbir Ahmad sahib. I would like to read his comments.

Link to Dr Shabbir Ahmad’s website.

37 Responses to “Conversation with Dr. Shabbir Ahmad, translator of Holy Quran”

  1. Tolue Islam movement has a difficult approach towards Islamic manners. The rejection of Hadith has led them to disregard the honour of Holy Prophet (saw) as well as any other revered personalities of Islam.

    They have to accept the continuation of Wahi and God’s interaction to man to be able to understand Ahmadiyyat. Dr. Shabbir should at least read Barakatud Dua, written specifically for people who hold similar views.

  2. I think muslims were conditioned to believe that Jesus actually physically ascended and will physically descend.

    This came from an era where the mass of people believed in miracles like the splitting of the sea by Moses and other superstitous events.

    The ahmadis(q and L) present a miracle-less religion. 50%(muslims and christians) of the known world believe that Jesus will defy the laws of physics when he returns. So even now half of all life believe in a miracle that will occur towards the end of time-space.

    I beleive that I un=locked a major theory of the ahmadi-muslim relationship.

  3. Miracle: (Merriam-Webster)
    1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3 : Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

    Etymology: Arabic muslim, literally, one who submits (to God)

    Etymology: Arabic islām submission (to the will of God)


    For a prophet the real “miracle” is in the transformation and uplift of a downtrodden society, which has reached a moral precipice that, it itself cannot recover from.  A prophet is a Muslim, hence he submits [to and abides by all Divine Laws including physical, moral, social, economic laws etc.] Majority of a prophet’s work deals with spiritual laws, which are upstream to all other laws. These laws are written in every page of Quran that Muhammad PBUH followed and succeeded in his mission during his own lifetime.

    If a prophet arrives to challenge and break god’s laws of physics then he is more of a usurper and a lawbreaker; whereas these laws God himself does not intend to break:

    30:30. So pay your whole-hearted attention to (the cause of) faith as one devoted (to pure faith), turning away from all that is false. (And follow) the Faith of Allâh (-Islam) to suit the requirements of which He has made the nature of mankind. There can be no change in the nature (of creation) which Allâh has made. That is the right and most perfect Faith, yet most people do not know (it).[Nooruddin]

    It is this fundamental standardization of physical laws that gives predictability and reliability to science.

  4. How do you explain the miracle of ‘red ink’ on clothes of Promised messiah? My theory is a lizard on the ceiling got injured and bled causing soilage. There has to be a natural explanation.

  5. For tahir ijaz: This is exactly my point!!!

    I believe that the companion who was with HMGA was buried with this garment.

    We need DNA testing. We need to test the blood on the garment in comparison with the blood of HMGA and his companion.

    As humans evolve, we are now looking for natural answers to solve miracles. But the prophets or “sent ones” always explained the phenomenon as a miracle.

    Kris Angel and David Blaine can perform all kinds of crazy tricks and that go undetected by the naked eye.

    MAGIC TRICKS have captivated the human for ages on end. Do religious people dabble in the sphere of magician tricks?

  6. For Ikram: I think, 1400 years ago the muslims thought it was a rule that ALlah had the ability to physically raise any person. I think that muslims believed that the HP accomplished this rare feat while in mecca.

    I also think that muslims were told that jesus would also be blessed with the same miraculous event towards the end of times.

    Muslims believed in miracles, now all humans are slowly moving away from the miracle-world.

  7. August 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    @T Ijaz
    Miracles such as ‘red Ink’ on cloths of HMGA or he being taught 40 thousand roots of Arabic language in one night are NOT for basing beliefs on it. These miracles are NOT for propagating religion to others who have NOT witnessed that event. Rather they are for recipient’s own conviction. This is the reason as per instruction of HMGA and his companion on whose cloths Red Ink got splattered, that piece of cloth was to be buried with companion of HMGA.
    Where as for others it is work of recipients of divine miracle. Just the way Rasul Allah SAWS miracle was Holy Quran. And HMGA miracle was his books in Arabic language.
    According to late Abdul Mannan Omar sahib, HMGA command of Arabic language is of very high standard. Per Mannan sahib he learned Arabic language from HMGA books.
    Rasul Allah SAWS manifested his miracle by his students such as Abu Bakr (RA), Umar Farooq RA, Usman Ghani RA, etc similarly HMGA manifested by his students such as Maulana Noor Ud Din (rta), Maulana Mohammad Ahsan Amrohi (rta), Muhammad Ali (rta),  Kawaja Kamal ud Din (rta), Maulana Sadar ud Din (rta), Maulana Abdul Haq Vidiarthi (rta) and many others.

  8. There are two concurrent ongoing discussions regarding Miracles, one is the current thread, and the other is under “Mi-raj” Can these be merged?

  9. August 25th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    That is beyond my level of expertise.

  10. Saint Augustine (A.D. 354-430) in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim) provided excellent advice for all Christians who are faced with the task of interpreting Scripture in the light of scientific knowledge. This translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

      “Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.” [1 Timothy 1.7] [] 

    St. Augustine words may equally apply to Quran and its interpretation, though with certain caveats.  Scientific laws are a sub-set of His Laws.  Discoveries in science are a personal human experience of His Laws.  Hence if the human effort in interpreting a Scripture contravenes science, then one has to reinterpret the narrow concreteness of the translation, as neither can we reject His Laws in Quran nor of His science.   

      In the Arabic of Hedjaz in which Quran is revealed, the “Quranic words are too rich in their significations…we need not give them new meanings, nor reinterpret them to satisfy new demands of life. Their connotations are wide enough to denote every new concept…They may become amplified, but on the material already existing.”  [Introduction to Study of The Holy Quran, by Khwaja Kamaluudin, pg 20-21, Dar-ul-Ishahat-Kutub-Islamia, Fatamabi Court, 4th Floor, 17 M Azad Road, Jacob Circle, Bombay. 1939, 1950, 1991.]  

    Quran forewarns its readers, including Muslims, against misapplication of its principles by use of unjustified logic and reasoning.  

      17:82. And We are gradually revealing of the Qur’ân (that teaching) which is (the cause of) healing and mercy for the believers. But this (revelation) only leads the unjust persons from loss to loss [Allamah Nooruddin]

  11. @ Tahir Ijaz and Bashir

    The real significance of the sign of Red ink (drops) is related to the phenomena what God can create something out of nothing. This is related to the Hindu belief that God can not and did not create matter and soul. HMGA (r.a) has mentioned that he was thinking about this attribute of God at a time when a debate was going on between him and Hindus on the same topic. He mentions that this sign was shown to him in order to strengthen his belief in this attribute of God.

    Now how does your Lizard theory fits into this situation?

    [Note by Zahid Aziz: Dr T. Ijaz was being sarcastic with the lizard explanation. He believes in the incident as a miracle, just as we do. End of Note.]

    I will be grateful if you can provide an explanation of the following on the same lines as you provided in the matter of Red ink (drops).

    “This stone of Moses is also mentioned in Rajatarangini. It weighs about 110 lbs.There is a tradition about this stone which I tested myself. We were told that if eleven people sat round it and put one finger each beneath this stone and called out Ka Ka, Ka Ka, the stone would lift itself from the ground. I was accompanied by four other Friends and we collected six local people and tried the experiment in the manner indicated. The stone rose to a height of about four feet from the ground and we did not feel its weight at all. We tried it with ten and then with twelve persons. The stone did not move. We tried again with eleven and it kept on rising so long as we all were shouting Ka Ka, Ka Ka. This time we carried it shoulder high when one of us began to laugh and the stone fell to the ground. On questioning the significance of eleven persons we were told that out of twelve tribes of Israel one (Levi) had been disinherited. The remaining eleven tribes must be symbolically represented before the stone of Moses would move itself.

    Truth is stranger than fiction. Any one doubting this statement can test it for himself.”

    Jesus in heaven on earth, 1998 USA edition, Page 283,284

    Bashir you do not have to take the pain of doing DNA testing as you mentioned. You just have to do what Khawaja Nazir Ahmad did. This might change your opinion and of many others like you.

  12. August 25th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    @ Ikram:
    “Scientific laws are a sub-set of His Laws.”
    I will call it Physical Laws are sub-set of Spiritual Laws. Or Spiritual Laws over-rule Physical Laws. That is how prayer can change physical situation.
    Once Rasul Allah leg was in lap of one of his Sahaba and revelation came. According to that Sahaba weight of revelation was so much that he could feel his leg crushing.
    Similarly, the Allah’s pen Red Ink that HMGA saw in his vision became physical.
    How it happens I don’t know, but it does.

  13. August 25th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    Issue is not whether Allah has ability to raise Jesus physically up or not. Well, Allah has ability to do every thing. The question is whether He has done it or not. And from Holy Quran it is clear that He did NOT physically raise him up.

  14. After reading all of the above here are my conclusions.

    1. From the time of at least bukhari, all muslims believed that the HP physically ascended and descended to heaven. They also believed unanimously that jesus was also to descend(nuzul) at the end of times to rid the world of shirk, i.e. christianity.

    2. All humans in all religions believed in supernatural events. Humans were very superstitous, they believed in miracles to a very high degree.

    3. After the European awakening, many secrets of nature were uncovered, gravity being one of the biggest secrets. Slowly people started questioning miracles in religion.

    4. In the 1800’s, many new religions emerged. Religious people began to realize that they would have to explain thier miracles in the light of science.

    5. HMGA rejected the physical ascent and descent of the HP in 1884. 7 years later he rejected the physical ascent and descent of Jesus.

    6. The koran is out of context when explaining the flight of th HP. I think 2 chapters share the story. But they are not conjoined.

    7. All of the experts on fiqh have always stated that Muhammad’s flight was physical. The consensus of opinion is overwhelming.

  15. Given the fact that science cannot comprehensively explain or describe the fundamental reality of existence; and whatever current understanding that we do have, one is forced to conculde that miraculous events are actually highly improbable events.

    In any case I think such events cannot instill the type of faith that is Islam’s specialty. Perhaps God may have performed miracles to save his followers at critical times.

  16. August 26th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    At the time in the 1880s when Hazrat Mirza sahib was refuting the Arya Samaj position that God could not create matter from nothing, science also taught that “matter can neither be created nor destroyed” (the law of conservation of matter). Arya Samaj pointed to this law in their support. Scientific discoveries during the 1890s overthrew the long established “classical” physics and gave birth to “modern” physics. One key discovery was that matter and energy are interconvertible, which was expressed by Einstein in 1905 as the famous equation E=m.c^2.

    Thus the law of conservation of matter was shown to be incorrect for nuclear reactions, while applying to ordinary chemical reactions. Matter could be created from energy, and could be destroyed by conversion into energy (as in a nuclear explosion or reactor). And this was established during the lifetime of the Promised Messiah, unknown to him and his followers.

    It is a fact that Physics changed from classical (Newtonian) to modern during the very years of the mission of the Promised Messiah. The key discoveries which changed it in the 1890s (X-rays and radioactivity) were made by scientists accidentally, and not as a result of human pre-planning.

    It is a fact that in the 1880s Physicists believed that Newtonian physics explained all phenomena and was firmly established forever, and no discoveries contradicting it could possibly be made, and that everything which happened in the physical world was determined by the laws of science that had been discovered. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan sahib was very much under this influence. Hazrat Mirza sahib challenged this view in 1893 in his booklet Barakat-ud-Dua, saying that there are laws of nature beyond what man has so far discovered. Within the same decade this uneducated man living in the remote village of Qadian was proved right as scientific discoveries disproved the existing concepts of Physics.

  17. Interestingly, this thread is turning into polemic of science. Some of the posts above make references in defense of Allah that God can do this and do that. If this line of arguments is extended then the question can be asked: Can God make a rock heavy enough that He Himself cannot lift? Can He throw us outside of his creation? Funny? Maybe. But, purely nonsensical and useless area of discussion.

    No one converted to Islam by the so-called physical miracles whether of Moses PBUH (serpent from his staff, splitting of the sea etc.), Jesus PBUH (walking on water, raising the dead, healing of lepers, curing blindness etc.), Muhammad PBUH (splitting the moon, going on Miraj etc.) or Mirza Sahib’s (red ink, 40K Arabic roots etc.)

    These were personal experiences of these individuals, which are not replicable; end of story, else it is no more than vain talk (by all, myself included) that is admonished:

    48:83. So leave them alone to indulge in vain talk and to keep themselves occupied with unreal things until they meet their time (of punishment) which they have been promised.

    48:84. He it is Who is (the Only) God in all the heavens and (the only) God in the whole of the earth and He alone is the All-Wise, the All-Knowing.

    Let us be clear – God does not play games:

    21:16. We did not create the heaven and the earth and all that is between the two in idle sport.
    21:17. If We had meant to make something vain and idle We would surely have made it so on Our part. (But) We were by no means to do (such a thing).

    44:38. And we did not create the heavens and the earth and all that lies between them just because We were doers of some purposeless work.
    44:39. (That) We created them, (it was) only (for an eternal purpose) to establish the truth, yet most of them do not know this.

    Science by its very nature is an evolving knowledge and its laws are a sub-set of all His Laws. A sub-set by its very nature cannot prove the full scope of or reject its super-set, however, it does provide a sampler of the super-set. Man neither created the scientific laws; neither can alter them, but accept his awe and subjugation to these laws. Does not science believe in the unseen of the physical world?  Yes it does and it is this very belief in the laws of science that the unknown come to light. In order to understand Him we additionally have to understand His moral laws as well so as to arrive at some understanding of the First Intelligent Cause:

    3:83. Do they then seek a creed other than Allâh’s while all those that are in the heavens and on the earth submit to Him willingly or unwillingly, and to Him they shall be made to return? [Note: those is inclusive of all physical and non-physical laws and principles]

    As regards to kun fa-yu-kun:
    “…to create something out of nothing is also His work. Just as you see that in a scene in a dream He creates a whole world without any matter, and shows nonexistent things to be existent. Thus such are all the wonders of His power…” [On the concept of God and the status of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Light – U.K. Edition, May 2008 Special Century Edition, page 19.]
    I rest my case with this:

    “True Science and true Theology are one and the same thing. One reveals the Laws of God, working in the various manifestations of the Universe, on the physical plane, and the other discloses the same Laws at work in the Moral and Spiritual sphere. All these laws emanate from the same First Intelligent Cause, and cannot, therefore, admit of any mutual discrepancy.” [Islam and Zoroastrianism by Khawaj Kamal ud din, pg 91, Basheer Muslim Library, The Mosque, Woking, pub: 1925.]
    [The Holy Quran – translation by Allamah Nooruddin]

  18. Ikram: Cannot remember the exact text, but HMGA also himself wrote that Quran is Allah’s book of words (Qouly Kitaab) and the natural law is Allah’s book of action (Fai’ly Kitaab) and there should not be discrepency between his words and action. Also some thing to the effect that physical laws are manifestations of spiritual truths.

  19. For ZA:

    Are you telling me that the incident of the blood magically appearing on the cloth was linked to some arya samaj beliefs as well as an argument that HMGA was having with them?

    I did not know that.

    I thought that this incident was isolated with no backround to it whatsoever.

  20. August 27th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
    From Zahid Aziz:

    It was towards the end of Ramadan in the summer of 1884. Hazrat Mirza Sahib said to his servant, Abdullah Sanori, who noticed the red drops, that it seems that since these days I am debating with Aryas as to whether God can create out of nothing, or cannot, so in order to strengthen our faith that He can create, God has shown this sign. Hazrat Mirza sahib had just before seen a dream in which God, signing a decree, shook a pen containing red ink.

  21. August 28th, 2009 at 12:47 am
    From Rashid Jahangiri:

    @ Waris:
    On occasion of annual convention 2005 of LAM in Ohio, USA.; some one in Q&A session brought Moses stone issue. The late Rasheed Pir Khan sahib of Suriname got up and informed the gathering that he himself tried with 11 people and stone did lift in air.

  22. bottom line is there are two views on miracles. very briefly:
    1. the more common belief is that since God is the creator of the laws of nature, he has the right to alter it and abolish it for a limited time to put people in awe
    2. the Ahmadiyya view is the laws of nature are never broken. man just does not fully understand or comprehend everything, so it only  appears laws are broken when a miracle occurs.

  23. October 13th, 2009 at 1:53 am
    From Faisal Iftikhar:

    It is not too important to argue over miracles, either interpretation can be accepted, one presented by Mullahs and the one presented by prolific writers such Dr. Shabbir Ahmad of Florida due to the fact that believing in miracles is not a matter of faith.

    If one wants to define miracles in some distinct ways, then it can be said that the flying of a plane high in the air is also a miracle. Just Imagine, 200 years ago in the time of Tipu Sultan and East India Company, could anyone have imagined that just 140 years from now on, wars will be fought not on horses but with fighter planes. Or in other words, when Wright brothers performed the first flight, it might have been a miracle for people living in that particular time period. However, these miracles are scientific and thus are based on reason. Plane flies high in the skies, it can be understood as a scientific miracle, it indeed is a scientific invention. A chair which has been tied with certain number of balloons with Hydrogen Gas in them can fly if the weight of those balloons exceeds that of the chair. This can be considered a scientific miracle, such things are supported by scientific reason.

    However, as matter of fact, we have only read about miracles in our current books (Miracles of muslim saints) but we haven’t seen them and the other fact is that in today’s world, noone carries the distinction of performing miracles. Everything is supported by science, rationality, reasoning and logic. At the end, I would say that I fully agree with Dr. Shabbir’s interpretation of miracles, that they should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. They can be taken, understood or defined in terms of allegories.

  24. Through science, it is not only by the development of technology that amazing feats can be seen which someone from the past would have considered as miracles. The knowledge gained about nature and the universe reveals processes that keep the world going, which stagger the human mind. These are processes which we take for granted and think of as daily and routine matters.

    Sometime ago there was a television science documentary entitled The Miracle of Birth. It was about the quite natural process of human conception and the development of the embryo. The people who gave it that title were the non-religious, science researchers and journalists who made the programme. The common process of human childbirth, when studied scientifically, suggests a miracle to the human mind.

    Likewise, the astronomical scales of the enormous distances in the universe, on the one hand, and the sub-atomic scales of minute distances on the other, are both beyond the capacity of human imagination. Before scientific discoveries, man did not know of these miracles.

    Man in his inventions only follows and copies nature (e.g. birds in flight). It is a claim of the Quran (read in it about bees, trees, ants, etc.) that the creation of God is inimitable in its working and cannot be equalled by man.

  25. Before the european renaissance, miracles were regarded as commonplace in religious thought.

    Muslims thought that the prophet idris was also physically raised to heaven. Muslims believed in Muhammad’s miraaj as a physical event, etc etc etc.

    It is very odd that christians and muslims still believe that a man will descend from heaven(or a parallel universe). This is a very silly statement, and I am flabergasted to learn that 50% of the global population believed in such non sense.

    Science has proven that heaven is not in the skies. There is no place to ascend or descend from. Unless there is a parallel universe called heaven, and their exists a worm hole somewhere which allows for jumping.

    I am anxious to see what other religious phenomenon that science will disprove.

    FYI: ahmadis (q and L) that HMGA experienced a miracle when the drops mysteriously appeared in 1884. I am sure that if we dig up the cloth it will be disproved as a miracle.

  26. Science has its role and scope but it will never explain the ultimate questions of existence: why are we here and why is there a rational universe which has given rise to a rational mind capable of comprehending it?

  27. Nor can science bring about reform of human character. Another problem faced with using scientific inventions is that of ethics, i.e. the right and wrong ways of using them. Some scientists involved in the original making of the atomic bomb later regretted it and its use. Einstein later strongly opposed nuclear weapons. He said:

    ‘Just as we use our reason to build a dam to hold a river in check, we must now build institutions to restrain the fears and suspicions and greeds which move people and their rulers….We do not have to wait a million years to use our ability to reason. We can and must use it now, or human society will sink into a new and terrible dark age.’

  28. In fact Mirza Sahib does give us the scientific guidelines in “Teachings of Islam” where he discusses role of food on human character and intertwining effects of body and soul and stages of human conscious. I would call it “Psychiatry 101.” Who needs Freud?

  29. @T Ijaz – I could not resist to state the obvious below:

    Scientific laws are only subset of His Laws. They are probably less than half of the full story and are unable to explain the issues that you raise. Only recently we moved from Newtonian to Quantum physics, and are now toying with String theories. Will we ever know the full science? Probably not.

    31:27. And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea with seven more seas added to it (were ink), the words of Allah would not be exhausted. Surely Allah is Mighty, Wise [Nooruddin]

    Like any garage, we need the full tool kit:

    True Science and true Theology are one and the same thing. One reveals the Laws of God, working in the various manifestations of the Universe, on the physical plane, and the other discloses the same Laws at work in the Moral and Spiritual sphere. All these laws emanate from the same First Intelligent Cause, and cannot, therefore, admit of any mutual discrepancy.” [Islam and Zoroastrianism by Khawaj Kamal ud din, pg 91, Basheer Muslim Library, The Mosque, Woking, pub: 1925.] – {reposted from above}

  30. HMGA did not explain as to where heaven was. Is it a parallel universe where Allah and the angels exist? Is it a planet in a different galaxy. Is it a realm that exists in a worm hole somewhere.

    I would like to see a scientist/prophet appear who would reveal all the secrets of the universe once and for all. That wasy we wouldnt have to wait for scientists to unlock these secrets for us.

    I am perplexed with the fact that Allah did not reveal the secret of gravity to the muslims during the Islamic renaissance. If allah would have revealed this to one of his muslims this world would be a very different place.

    Instead allah chose Newton and the christian world to grant this blessing upon.

    Maybe muslims would have themselves disproved the notion that Jesus(and Muhammad/Idris) physically ascended and will descend physically. Maybe, and this is a very strong maybe, maybe humans will find an anti-gravity tool that will allow humans to ascend to the moon if needed.

    Just imagine if muslims would have landed on the moon and if muslims would have led the charge into the NEW AGE. This world would be a much different place.

    Instead most muslims come from the 3rd world, and they are out of touch with reality.

  31. Islam: [Arabic] peace and submission to [His created] Laws [of mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, finance, morality, spirituality etc. in summary all material and non-material laws]

    Muslim: adherent of Islam [Merriam Webster]

    Religion of Islam means reconnecting and peacefully submitting to His Laws.
    Religion: derived from Religare: [Latin] i.e. re (again) + ligare or “to reconnect.”


    At least by above definitions, “Muslims” landed on the moon, because all those involved submitted to His Laws [of mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, finance, etc. etc.]

    If the “traditional” Muslims, have a problem in abidance with such laws, then it is their own arrogance by which they have locked away the potentials of their faith in rituals, dogmas and polemic. Landing on the moon is still far off. They cannot even calculate a new moon, because if they use mathematics, astronomy or physics, they will no longer be “real” Muslim. Oh God, have mercy on us!

  32. @Bashir: …” Is it a parallel universe where Allah and the angels exist?”..,

    This kind of argument goes in parallel with a physical concept of God because He has to be physically confined somewhere. Similar logic minimizes the grandeur of God in physical Miraj (discussed elsewhere)

    As to where is Heaven:

    “Astronomical truth, as accepted at present, leaves no room for a geographical Heaven.” [Hints to Study of the Quran, by Khwaja Kamaluddin, Islamic Review and Muslim India, Vol . XVIII, No. 3 & 4, March – April 1930, pg 93, The Woking Muslim Mission and Literary Trust, The Shah Jehan Mosque, Woking, England]

    Look around. Maybe you have already sampled it:

    2:25. And give good tidings to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, that there await them gardens from beneath which the streams flow. Every time they are given any kind of fruit from them (- the gardens) to eat, they will say, `This is the same we were given before.’ They will be given it (- the fruit) in perfect semblance (to their deeds). They shall have therein companions purified (spiritually and physically), and will abide therein for ever. [Nooruddin]

  33. Ikram and T Ijaz:

    HMGA has expounded upon this comprehensively; the relationshiop between the physical and spiritual, the apparent and hidden…etc etc. Ref KK’s quote about True Science and True Theology, HMGA explains the same by terming natural laws Alah’s “book of action” and the Quran Allah’s “book of words” and that there should be harmony in action and words. It is amazing that Science both at the Macro level (fate of the Universe) and micro level (quanuam mehanics, string thoery etc) just dissolves into probabilities; which is precisely the outcome of philosophical views on God. HMGA’s philosophy (derived clearly from Quran) then appears to resolve this (at least to me)…..he was way ahead of his time…or in context of the entire century….just right for his time.

  34. In the Intro section of Jesus in India, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad writes:

    “God made the earliest heavenly bodies spherical in shape and, in His law of nature, set down this point of spiritual guidance that, like a sphere, there is in Him Unity and absence of direction.  That is why things which occupy space have not been made triangular, i.e the things which God created first such as the earth, heaven, sun and moon are all spherical, the spherical nature of which points towards Unity”.

    Has anyone ever used the spherical shape argument to prove unity of God?  I guess it can mean there is a unity in the laws of nature, but perhaps someone can explain how it is connected.

  35. The ancient Greek philosophers around the 6th century BC believed that the earth was round on the basis of their belief that the sphere was the most perfect shape.

    Classical Muslim scholars are said to have reached an ijma that celestial bodies are round. Ibn Taymiya (who lived about 700 years ago) said, “Celestial bodies are round—as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians—it is likewise the statement of the scholars of Islam”.

    So the spherical shape of heavenly bodies seems to have had a religious significance as well in early Islam.

  36. The Muslims were not able to fully comprehend the secrets of gravity and falling bodies. Allah chose to give this gift to the kafirs.

    Imagine if Suyuti was sitting under the apple tree instead of Newton.

  37. That is why the Holy Prophet Muhammad told Muslims to seek knowledge even if it is in China. The knowledge to be sought in China was not discovered by Muslims.

    He also described the word of wisdom or knowledge as the lost property of the believer, presumably meaning that others have got it.

    Ironically, so-called “kafirs” also know much more accurately and long in advance about the appearance of the new moon than Muslims of the present day!

    They are “kafirs” of religious concepts but “believers” of material knowledge. The Holy Quran already gave an example in chapter 12 (Joseph) of a great civilization of “kafirs”, whose knowledge and standards it approves of.