The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement Blog

On their website they define Second Hand as: “Definition of Secondhand: Obtained, derived, or borrowed from another; not original.”

We have no objection to our literature or our beliefs being called “second hand”, since they are certainly obtained and derived from the “first hand” sources of Islam, i.e. the Quran and Hadith! And unless the writings of these opponents have been produced directly by Allah and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w), they are also not first hand Islam.

Another interesting observation is that if you look at the isnad of any hadith report, you find that the report is about fourth or fifth hand from the Holy Prophet! Does this website condemn hadith reports as worse than secondhand?

Please note that something “secondhand” can also be highly beneficial to people, and is even treated like the real thing. A second hand car is still a car, mechanically and legally. I have always bought secondhand cars, which have served me as well as a new car would have done.

Anti-Ahmadiyya propagandists mentioned by Rashid are usually these days careful not to disclose their own beliefs because if they do, then their beliefs can be subjected to the same principles of criticism that they apply to us, and they turn out to be as un-Islamic as they are trying to prove us to be. However, the “Secondhand Islam” website have published their beliefs in detail. Under “Prophet Muhammad” they write:

“And that he is Khatamun-Nabiyeen (seal, last, final, end) of the Prophets … Every claim to prophethood after Him is falsehood and deceit.”

But under “The End Times”, they write: “We believe in the signs of the Hour such as the appearance of the Dajjal and the descent of Prophet Isa from heaven”.

Under “The Nation”, they say: “We call the people of our qiblah Muslims and believers as long as they acknowledge that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, is the last & final prophet and what he brought is accepted along with what he has said is the truth. … We do not consider any of the people of our qiblah to be unbelievers because of any sin they have done, as long as they do not consider that sin to have been lawful.”

The above two beliefs are what we should discuss with them.

Hello SecondhandIslam. Your dogma of a religion reminds me of an earlier Islam brought to this world by Moses, but alas it turned into Judaism even before the advent of Issa PBUH or Muhammad PBUH. Judaism prides itself on lips service of monotheism in garb of rituals and traditions while having lost its spiritual soul.
 
With Judaism and Christianity in mind Khwaja Kamaluddin wrote:

If the Religion taught in the book is a husk and a garb, if it is dogma and formu1ae, if it is sacrament and priest craft, a symbolism and rituals, and if it hinges upon the personality of its teacher and revolves on certain supposed events in his lifetime, it is not religion but superstition and myth. It is transitory, a fog which cannot stand in the strong rays of the sun of rationality. But if a religion gives you certain broad principles of life to meet your physical, moral, and, spiritual needs, and makes utility to mankind the criteria of ethical virtues and leaves the rest to your judicial discretion and good common sense, while appealing always to your reason for the acceptance of its tenets, it hardly hampers your progress. It, on the other hand, helps your uplift. That such principles have been revealed to man from God, and have been codified, cannot impede our advancement. If axioms and postulates revealed to Euclid have only helped our activities in our mathematical researches, why a broad-basic principle-laying religion can[not] create a moral and ethical inertia. Has not science made progress with bounds and strides, and did it not take place only after we based our researches on certain basic principles? If so we find in every avenue of human activities, why not in the realm of religion? [Free Religious Movement, Islamic Review and Muslim India , Vol. IV, No. 12, December 1916, p. 561]

I am afraid, I will have to add the dogma represented by SecondhandIslam to the above list of Judaism and Christianity. Again, in words of Khwaja Kamaluddin:

Pure monotheism would go to the real Fountain Head of all light, but the polytheistic tendency, innate in an undeveloped mind, would blight its judgment and benight its reasoning. Man would take the agent for the principal, the husk for the kernel, the effect for the cause, and the immediate for the ultimate. This psychology creates polytheism. All forms of “isms,” ranging from fetishism to Man-worship, thrive under it [Islam and Zoroastrianism by Khwaja Kamal ud din, p. 18]

The merit of SecondhandIslam is none but by chance being born in a Muslim household and that’s their main source of zealot fervor. Take a pause and self-reflect in verses of Quran about your faith:

5:104. …They say, `Sufficient for us is that (tradition) whereon we have found our forefathers.’ What! (would they follow them blindly) even though their forefathers had no knowledge whatsoever and had no guidance?

43:22. Nay, but they say, “Behold, We found our forefathers agreed on what to believe – and, verily, it is in their footsteps that we find our guidance!”

43:23. And thus it is: whenever We sent, before thy time, a warner to any community, those of its people who had lost themselves entirely in the pursuit of pleasures would always say, “Behold, we found our forefathers agreed on what to believe – and, verily, it is but in their footsteps that we follow!”

 
Turning to Issa and Maryam (may Allah bless their souls), how will you interpret the following verses:

21:34. And We have not assigned to any human being before you [– Muhammad] an unusually prolonged life…. [that includes Issa ibn-e Maryam]

Then like any other human, Issa died too. How do you read the following verses?

5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger, all the Messengers have (like him) passed away before him, his mother was a highly truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the arguments for their good, yet see, how they are turned away (from the truth). [Note – Both Jesus and Mary – They both used to eat food and are no longer eating food now i.e. both have passed away]

3:144. And Muhammad is but a Messenger. Surely, all Messengers [without exception] have passed away before him. Would you recant if he dies or be killed. And he who recants shall do no harm at all to Allâh, and Allâh will certainly reward the grateful.

For the next verse, please open Google Maps. The following is no where to be found in Middle East:

23:50. And We made the son of Mary [– Jesus] and his mother a sign, (and a model of virtue), and We gave them both refuge upon a worth-living lofty plateau abounding in (green and fruitful) valleys and springs of running water. [Note the key word “refuge” i.e. the final destination of the escape. The world know that it is Kashmir.]

Now the last verse. You can keep your mind shut while reading Ibn-Ishaq, Ibn-Hisham, Qisas and other folklore, but I am sorry for Quran you will have to open your mind:

13:03. Verily, in all this [-Quran] there are messages indeed for people who think

If you do not open your mind, then read the following:

7:179: Our Law has committed to Hell numerous people, rural and urban; they are living the life of hell. They have hearts that they use not to understand. They have eyes with which they see not, and ears with which they hear not. They are like cattle. Nay, they are even worse. Such are the people who have chosen to live through life in total darkness of ignorance. [Shabbir Ahmed]

By the way, SecondhandIslam, please try to stay away from hair-splitting dogmas as represented by this link.
 

@Ikram, You quoted verses 5:104/43:22/43:23, the verses speak of the polythiests, were you fathers idol worshippers?
Alhumdulillah we hold the same religion as our forefathers because they were Muslims who worshipped the one and only God, only deranged cults like yours claim that all those before mirza ghulam qadiani were misguided and well astray. Since the Prophet SAW passed away there was always a pure form of Islam and it still exists till this day, none of the first 13 mujaddids contradicted one another upon the fundamentals of Islam only mirza qadiani who you claim to be the 14th century mujaddid brought about strange beliefs!
You theory of ‘Islam and Zoroastrianism’ is nothing new as I have heard the same level of nonsense from the Munakareen E Ahadith.
In verse 21:34 you used ‘an unusually prolonged life‘ الْخُلْدَ does not mean unusual neither prolonged but it means ETERNAL/EVER LASTING.
The triliteral root khā lām dāl (خ ل د) occurs 87 times in the Quran, in six derived forms: twice as the form I verb yakhlud (يَخْلُدْ) – twice as the form IV verb akhlada (أَخْلَدَ) – six times as the noun khul’d (خُلْد) – once as the noun khulūd (خُلُود) –  seventy four (74) times as the active participle khālid (خَٰلِد) – twice as the form II passive participle mukhalladūn (مُّخَلَّدُون). and each time it is defined as something that is everlasting/immortal (SHALL NEVER END)
Prophet Isa AS shall return and live the remainder of his life and then shall pass away after so he will be buried next to the Prophet Muhammad SAW in Madina.
In your distorted translations of verses 5:75 & 3:144 you have added the word ALL-  ‘KULLU’  كُلُّ is the arabic for every/all yet it cannot be found in the verse, which arabic word have you used to translate into english as all?
23:50 – did you check EVERY SINGLE SPOT in occupied Palestine on google maps? most of occupied palestine (known to the west as Israel) cannot even be seen on google maps as they have clouded parts out for the ‘security’ of the invaders. Such a childish statement from you.
At the end you use shabbir ahmed’s interpretation, a hadith denier who like yourselves believes that all before Ghulam Ahmad Parwez were astray!
The fundamentals of your cults are built on wax.
Have a think about yourselves: “Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason.” [8:22]
@Rashid, please do not contact us again, we share no similarity and neither do we Muslims accept any follower of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani to be a Muslim. Our great scholars were alive during his time and all of them witnessed his claim to being a Prophet. We have set you a challenge in our response, either apologise for your false statements or re-write them taking an oath with Allah as your witness and the curse being upon the liar.
 

SecondHandIslam (SHI) only exposed himself with his own contradictions as follows:
 
1. SHI seems to be a polytheist/idolater:
I say this because to be a Muslim one has to believe in Kalima Shahada in its pristine purity i.e. “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger.” In his response SHI proved that he bows to other God besides Allah, that include namely – Arrogance, Ignorance, Hate, Anger, Bigotry etc. These are the very idols that Muhammad PBUH cleansed from the minds of the people. SHI is willing to sacrifice his honor, dignity, logic and reason on the the altar of these Gods, in the same manner that pagans used to make all kind of sacrifices including those of humans. Has he ever made a public denouncements of killers of Qadianis and Christians in Pakistan. No. Never. Why? Is he tacitly complicit? [Note this is not a Qadiani site]
 
2. SHI is denier of Khatam-e-Nabuwat:
He is waiting for another Prophet after Muhammad PBUH, whereas Quran states without any ifs, ands or buts:
 
33:40. Muhammad is no father to any man among you but (he is rather) the Messenger of Allâh and the Seal of the Prophets…
 
Whereas, Lahori Ahmadis who actually believe in the above verse are “Kafirs” to him. Now this is sheer imbecility.
 
3. SHI is denier of Sunnah:
Unlike Prophet Muhammad PBUH who wrote to the kings of the world in his own signature, SHI hides behinds a pseudonym. Who is he afraid of? MI-5?
 
4. SHI is denier of Quran and smears Prophet Muhammad.
According to his logic e.g. verses 5:104/43:22/43:23 do not apply to him for their inherent moral principles because its was aimed at the polytheists of the time of Muhammad PBUH. If we take his logic, then even (nauz-e-billah) Prophet Muhammad too had to convert to Islam because his ancestors too were in words of SHI “idol worshipers.” By his logic SHI is not only smearing this writer, but also by implication smearing our beloved Prophet Muhammad PBUB – the absolute last of the prophets. How low can he go. Blasphemy?
 
5. SHI is worse than Hadith deniers:
He smears Shabbir Ahmed sahib with a scorn and allegation that the latter is a Hadith denier, whereas SHI himself is Quran denier as shown in #4 above. He will defend Hadith (-human effort) at the cost of Quran (-word of God).
 
6. SHI is in footsteps of Jews who tried to kill Jesus:
SHI is waiting for return of Jesus. He also alleges under oath that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared himself to be the Promised Messiah. Yet at the same time, he is in the forefront to deny, confront and report to the authorities the claimant of “Jesus” in the same manner as Jews of Palestine did to Issa-ibn-e-Maryam. [Of note is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad believed in absolute finality of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, unlike SHI]
 
7. SHI might be the actual Jesus killer:
On one hand he claims “Eternal Life” for Issa-ibn-e-Maryam and on the other hand he intends to bury him in Medina. Essentially, he intends to bring to an end the eternity of Jesus, at least in his discourse.
 
8. SHI is no different than Ghostbusters
Ghostbusters dupe the world using their galvanometers by which they pick the “energies” in the possessed homes. Apparently, SHI will be able to tell a real Jesus from the fake Jesus by some technique that only he knows, but is not willing to share. Now a days the claimant of a “real” Jesus and their followers end up in mental hospitals. Even worse, they will kill such a Jesus in Pakistan under its constitution, no matter how “real” he maybe.
 
9. SHI may not go to heaven:
He claims himself to be the “real deal” Muslim. How does he know? It is because of people like him that no where Quran mentions “Muslims” going to heaven by name. In Quran only the righteous will enter heaven, be they Jews or Christians:
 
2:62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .[Hilali and Khan]
 
SHI – does the above include “Mirzays” or for that matter you or both?
 
——
The above is factually a nonsensical discussion far from the Message of Quran or the life time purpose of Muhammad PBUH or the mission of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (HMGA)
 
This deliberate example is only to show SHI that one does not become a better Muslim and follower of the Last Prophet Muhammad PBUH by smearing others. Neither Muhammad did it, not he asked his followers to do so.
 
SHI, so that you know, Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat Islam Lahore believes in absolute finality of Prophet Muhammad without any ifs ands or buts. They offer no apologies or exceptions. We are of very clear understanding based upon written facts that this too was the absolute faith of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We claim our Islam based upon Quran and Muhammad. HMGA only clarified certain principles for us. If nothing else, he abolished the concept of Mansookah or abrogation in Quran, re-positioned Quran to the center of Islamic faith, all for which we are thankful to him. It is not a must to accept HMGA to be a Mujaddid to be a Muslim.
 
Suffice is to say:
 
10:41. And if they reject thee, say: My work is for me and your work for you. You are clear of what I do and I am clear of what you do.
 
———
Technical Discussion:
 
SHI objects to word “all” in the following translation because there is no “KULLU” in Arabic verse:
5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger, all the Messengers have (like him) passed away before him, his mother was a highly truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the arguments for their good, yet see, how they are turned away (from the truth). [Nooruddin]
 
Ma almaseehu ibnu maryama illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu waommuhu siddeeqatun kana ya/kulani alttaAAama onthur kayfa nubayyinu lahumu al-ayati thumma onthur anna yu/fakoona
 
Lets break down the above sub-verse – qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu


If we use simple dictionary meaning it would come out as – certainly – has passed – from – before him – the Messengers.
 
To take the above dictionary translation as the actual message will be a weakness because of contextual deficiencies of plain dictionary meanings. This will be a classical case of “Lost in Translation.” It is no brainer that Messengers passed away before Jesus. If this translation is taken from SHI’s point of view who needs “KULLU” as the only basis for “all,” then it creates exception for Prophet Idrees (Enoch) who also had rafa i.e. elevation of moral and spiritual status in history just like Jesus. In Old Scriptures, Idrees walked with God. That is a high status. If taken into full context including the emphasis of Qad and the message that a native desert Beduoin will imply without actually verbalizing it, the word “all” needs to be included to bring out the full message and essence of the verse in Hidjazi dialect, else English creates a hole of exceptions in the message. Factually, usage of “all” enhances the message without distorting the message of the Quran by eliminating doubts whatsoever because Quran is a book free of doubts: 2:2. This is the only perfect Book, wanting in naught, containing nothing doubtful, harmful or destructive, there is no false charge in it…[Nooruddin]
 
 
Qad – Corroborative particle added to a verb. When preceding the past it means that an event has truly or recently happened, and when proceeding the aorist it means that an event is expected to be shortly performed. Thus it a confirmatory particle prefixed before perfect tense to make the verb definitely past perfect and when placed before imperfect it denotes certainty of a thing or frequency of a thing and that it is surely expected or it was not unexpected. Another use of Qad is to add energy to an affirmation and it may then be rendered truly of a certainty, verity, indeed, surely. It also means already or possibility. If used as a noun it means sufficiency. When it gives the meanings of expectation it can be prefixed before past tense and aorist. It also gives the meaning of to happen often or frequently or very often or Rubamâ – many a time. Some times it is used with letter Fâ as Faqad (L; T; Ibn Mâlik; Mughnî; Hamâ al-Hawâmi’; Akhfash; Jauharî; Tahzîb; Zamakhsharî; LL) [Dictionary of Quran – Nooruddin]
 
The above was a translation by a Nooruddin who lived in Makkah and Medina for years to learn the old Arabic literature and poetry along with Hadith and Quran.
 
Another person who lived amongst the Bedouin Tribes of Hidjaz for seven years, namely Muhammad Asad translates the same verse as follows using the word “all”:
 
5:75. The Christ, son of Mary, was but an apostle: all [other] apostles had passed away before him; and his mother was one who never deviated from the truth; and they both ate food [like other mortals]. Behold how clear We make these messages unto them: and then behold how perverted are their minds!
 
Still another person who spent his medical career in Hidjaz is Shabbir Ahmed, who translates the same verse with full implied meaning of “all”:
 
5:75. The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a Messenger, like other Messengers before him who passed on. And his mother was a woman of truth. Both of them were human beings who had to eat food (like all other mortals). See how clearly We explain Our verses for them and note how they keep wandering in thought!
 
Another person a former Christian and translator of Quran, Marmaduke Pickthall who was Imam of Lahore Ahmadi Mosque at Woking had this to say about limitations of English for translation of Quran:
 
“It is impossible to translate literally from a synthetic language to an analytical language and still preserve the force of the original…whereas Qur’ân in Arabic is terse, majestic and poetical.”
(Article ‘The Quran’ by Marmaduke Pickthall, Islamic Review and Muslim India, Vol. VII, No. I, January 1919, p. 19)
 
To a Mullah, one of the translators is Ahmadi, another Yahudi and the third a Parvazi and fourth a Christian. But to an intelligent reader they are all Muslims, who believe in the absolute finality of Muhammad PBUH and take Quran unabrogated.

Conclusion: We are all Muslims including SHI, who might differ amongst ourselves on minor points but we all love Muhammad PBUH who is the Last of the Prophets. We all draw our path from Quran and example of Muhammad. We are all one Ummah. Assalam-o-Alaikum to all:

4:94. O you who believe! when you set forth in the cause of Allâh, then make proper investigations (before you dub anyone as a disbeliever), and do not say to him who offers you `Salâm‘, (- peace, the Muslim salutation to show himself thereby a Muslim,) `You are not a believer.’ You seek the transitory goods of this life, but Allâh has good things in plenty with Him. You were such (disbelievers) before that (you accepted Islam), but Allâh has conferred His special favour on you, hence do make proper investigations. Surely, Allâh is Well-Aware of what you do.[Nooruddin]

 
In reply to opponent of HMGA and LAM ‘Second Hand Islam’ website based in UK, post ‘Response to A Lahori’ http://www.secondhandislam.co.uk/response-to-a-lahori.php  I sent them following reply, through their ‘Contact Us’. I am not sure if SHI website will post my reply.
 
Response to Second Hand Islam post ‘Response to A Lahori’
 
Second Hand Islam,
 
My comments follow your remarks.
 
Your:
 
“On Sunday 16/10/2011 I received no less than 12 emails all containing the same message from a Mr Rashid Jahangiri. Mr Jahangiri is a member of the Lahori Mirzay Cult who call themselves ‘Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement’.  In bold are the statements of the Lahori Cult member and beneath is my reply.”
 
Mine:
 
I intentionally sent my post multiple times to make sure you get it and to make sure you do not miss it in your inbox.
 
Your:
 
“If you actually made an effort to read the page you would notice that nowhere have Lahori Cult members been mentioned. The challenge is for the Qadiani cult and it clearly states on the page ‘Challenge For Qadianis’ not ‘Challenge For Lahori Mirzays’. You Lahoris also refer to them as Qadianis, completely dissociate yourselves from them and regularly stress ‘we have nothing to do with Qadianis’ yet on this occasion (most likely for publicity reasons) you jump on the same bandwagon!”
 
Mine:
 
I am glad to know that you have realized weakness in your accusations. You have realized that if you read Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement-LAM-member (referred by you as Lahori Mizays) you do not find any objectionable belief, claim, and statements of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. In other words you in theory hold LAM beliefs and agree with them. Unfortunately, your  this attitude is NOT enough to excuse you and let you go, because you accuse Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mujjadid of 14th Islamic Hijra century, of making questionable claims based on Qadianis beliefs, claims and literature. This is the reason, I being a LAM member decided to debate with you, and to prove to you that you are absolutely wrong, and you owe me your promised money. To help you understand, here is an example: Waqdi was a Muslim who fabricated Ahadiths. He was declared liar by his contemporary Muslim scholars. He is discredited by Muslims. Still Jews and Christian opponents of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, currently people at ‘Jihad Watch’ continue to quote Waqdi and accuse Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS based on fabricated Ahadith. If you go on their website you will find Muslim posters shouting that understanding of Jihad Watch people is faulty and their source of Ahadith is false. Same is the case with LAM members, including myself, we point out to people like you that your understanding of HMGA is faulty and source of your understanding is false. Understand!!
 
Your:
 
“Nothing has been alleged, all quotes are from the books of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani, if you accept those books or not, it’s not our problem. Also once again there was no mention of LAM.”
 
Mine:
 
Second Hand Islam (SHI), you are exactly following argument line of Jew Robert Spencer of ‘Jihad Watch’.  Please take time to watch 90 minutes documentary by Robert Spencer and his cohort, very scholarly rebutted by blogger Ikram on LAM blog, in Project Rebuttal. Link to documentary:  http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/category/projectrebuttal/ You will see your image in documentary.
 
Your:
 
“When you don’t accept those books to be authentic then why are you getting involved? There has been no mention of your Lahori Cult for you to become involved. Strangely enough I hear the same nonsensical lame replies from all types of Mirzays, whether Qadiani or Lahori, ‘read the pages before and after’ yet you people never seem to do the same with the Quran which is the WORD of Allah SWT. You people give more importance to Mirza Qadiani and hold is word as final authority by claiming reading several pages before and after would explain the depth of understanding within a  ridiculous quote of his! When all types of Mirzays quote from the Quran they will use one verse and completely twist the meaning to suit their own agenda, instead of reading the verses before and after just like the enemies of Islam do. These examples can be found for the false claims made by both Mirzay Cults that Prophet Isa AS has died (4:157/158), the allegation that Surah Al-Qiyamah (75:7/8/9) contains a prophecy of a solar & lunar eclipse which occurred during the life of Mirza Qadiani.”
 
Mine:
 
As I said before, you’re like Jew Robert Spencer who keeps quoting fabricated ahadith, and keep quoting Holy Quran verses out of context and even twisting their meanings, and on top of that keep asserting that he is correct and Muslims are wrong. Watch his documentary ‘Islam: What the west needs to know’.
 
Your:
 
“Where is your name or the name of your Lahori Cult mentioned on that page? When you do not accept those books to be authentic then why are you wasting our time? The Questions were for those who believe in those books!”
 
Mine:
 
SHI, here you’re behaving like a Hindu, who tells Muslims: You are wrong and Christians are correct regarding Jesus status and personal life stories of Prophets, their mothers, wives, and daughters etc as mentioned in Christian Gospel to be more genuine and true because it is written in their scripture, where as you Muslims do not accept Bible in its current form. Well, I am glad that you’re indirectly acknowledging that you have no case against HMGA when you see him through the lenses of LAM beliefs, claims and literature. And now you’re trying to run away and not pay me monetary reward you’re supposed to pay. I have not even started debate on your challenge and you’re looking for a way out. Allah-O-Akbar. SHI, just accept your defeat!!
 
Your:
 
“We do thanks [refer to reading of 10 pages before and after HMGA quotes]”
 
Mine:
 
SHI, if this is the case, then what is stopping you from going ahead with your challenge that I accepted?? It is obvious, you have not read 10 pages before and after HMGA quote and now you’re afraid that in my debate I will make you read those pages. And you’re scared to face the truth!!
 
Your:
 
“I will take a bigger step: I swear by Allah as my witness, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian who claimed to be a Mujaddid, Mahdi, The Promised Messiah and (according to the Qadiani Cult) a Prophet, was nothing but a Liar, Fraud & Charlatan. He died as a Kafir and those who accept his claims are also Kafirs, whether Qadiani or Lahori. May Allah give guidance to you but if guidance is not your destiny then may Allah curse the liar, Aameen.”
 
Mine:
 
In time of HMGA, Christian and Hindu opponents of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS use to make extreme kind of accusation on Holy Prophet and his wives lives etc. They use to make these accusations in public. They had faces. They were well known to HMGA. HMGA in his duty of defending honor of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS and his family members was not sparing any effort. Still Christian and Hindu opponents of Holy Prophet did not stop from their accusatory mission. HMGA figured that these opponents in their hearts understand well that what they are saying is baseless and false, but were not willing to give up popularity they had gained among their followers. He also figured these people in reality do not believe in Almighty God, but they had children and would not like to see any calamity falling on their children and loved ones.  So, HMGA use to demand from these opponents to say on oath, with invitation of Almighty God wrath on their children in form of death, whatever they are saying otherwise. But these opponents never accepted HMGA challenge. Similar are the cases of Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad (spokesman of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK), Shahid Kamal Ahmad (speaker of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK), and Ahmad Karim Shaikh (darling of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK). Their faces are well known, in internet videos, and Mullah-Mafia TV channels in UK programs. I know they have children. Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad has at least one daughter (she was sitting next to him during his appearance on Al-Jazeera program), Shahid Kamal Ahmad has children, and Ahmad Karim Shaikh has only one child, a son (he is married to Catholic Christian of Filipino ancestry). Over the years I have debated with them. I provided HMGA defense to the best of my ability. Ahtemam-e-Hujjat (reason for excuse) was done in their cases. This is the reason, I invited them to state under oath what they say otherwise, by inviting Allah SWT as a judge for what they profess with their tongues/writings they believe in their hearts. Like Christian and Hindu opponents of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, these three Akbar, Shahid, and Shaikh have constantly refused to make their statements under oath, as demanded by me. When I remind them, they not only delete my posts, but also ban me on their forum/blog. They do not care for Allah’s commandment to state on oath when there is no witness or judge with temporal powers for the incident under dispute. These opponents of HMGA are not willing to invite Allah SWT to decide and punish them if they lie. SHI, I don’t know who you’re? You’re faceless. I don’t know your marital status. I don’t know if you have children. I don’t know how you look. I don’t know how long your ears are. I don’t know how you sound. I am not sure, if you don’t use all your four limbs to walk. For me you are no one unless I see you in court in front of judge who makes you pay me the monetary reward you have been boasting.
 
Your:
 
“Already done.”
 
SHI, I already told you in my above paragraph: You do NOT count. I am not sure, if you’re not the one whose sound is called ugliest sound in Holy Quran!!
 
Your:
 
“We will come back to this [Jew in Jesus time] shortly.”
 
Mine:
 
I am eagerly waiting to show you a mirror and you see your image of ‘Jew in Jesus Time’.
 
Your:
 
“Probably because of your arrogant tone/abuse or because of your ignorance they do not want to waste time with you. Lahoris are desperately attempting to gain attention by jumping onto any post that mentions the Qadiani Cult.”
 
Mine:
 
SHI, I am glad you’re confirming my assertion by you being close to Chaudhry Akbar  and Shahid Kamal that these opponents of HMGA while posting as opponent of HMGA under their real names also post under “moderator” to delete my posts and then ban me. Thank you for confirming. I am impressed by the tolerance of these opponents of HMGA to the smell of a Skunk.  They can hang around you. Impressive! I am shocked to know that my request to opponents of HMGA to invite Allah SWT as a judge is “arrogant tone”, “abuse”, and “ignorance” in your opinion! When you don’t feel any hesitation in using such words who wants to invoke Almighty decision, then I don’t know what else can convince you. When you opponents of HMGA learn to differentiate between HMGA and Qadiani cult, then I promise you, I will not jump onto any post to educate you people.
 
Your:
 
“I suggest you remember this [inviting Allah SWT to decide when there is no witness or judge] statement well of yours.”
 
Mine:
 
Only Chaudhry Akbar and Shahid Kamal truly know in their hearts or Allah SWT knows the truth. This is the reason, I keep asking these Spokesman and speaker of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK people to state under oath what they utter with their tongues ad nauseam.  
 
Your:
 
“Referring to statements 5 & 7. I request you to take oath that the two individuals you have mentioned hold the positions within the Khatme Nubuwat Academy, UK that you stated. Moreover you have suggested that both individuals are responsible for the five challenges, you have been bold in your previous statements so I request you to take oath with Allah SWT as judge, that these statements you have mentioned are 100% correct. Once again I must stress there was no mention of your Lahori Cult. I understand how small your Lahori Cult membership is and that you don’t even make half the amount of the chanda that the Qadiani cult does, so money is a big factor for you! When the enemies of Islam come forward waving their swords attempting to attack the character of the beloved Last Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Sallallahu Alahi Wassallam, We the Muslims jump at the chance to defend him and ask for nothing in return.”
 
Mine:
 
I say under oath, based on information from UK- newspaper reports, TV reports, BBC radio reports, Mullah Mafia TV channels in UK, internet videos, internet posts by Chaudhry Akbar and Shahid Kamal: Chaudhry Akbar is SOPKESMAN of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK. He represented them in media when UK POLICE and/or SCOTLAND YARD did CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK. Similarly Shahid Kamal is speaker of Khamtam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK (which has been investigated for criminal activities and probably continues to be watched by UK intelligence agencies) and on their encouragement/behalf delivered speeches against HMGA in mosques in UK.
 
SHI, Jew Robert Spencer and his colleagues on ‘Jihad Watch’ accuse Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS and it is LAM members who give then JAW BREAKING REPLIES. Guess what these Jew & Christian opponents say? They say Ahmadis [Lahori-Ahmadis] your replies/ arguments and reasons in defense of honor of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS are NOT valid, because you people are “non-Muslims” according to Muslims. So your replies are not acceptable. See link, where I posted replies of opponents of Holy Prophet: http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2009/02/28/maulana-muhammad-alis-translation-referred-to-in-jihad-watch-article/  So, SHI when you say, “Once again I must stress there was no mention of your Lahori Cult. I understand how small your Lahori Cult membership is and that you don’t even make half the amount of the chanda that the Qadiani cult does,….” Image of Jew Robert Spencer comes in my mind, but this time caption says: ‘This is face of SHI’!!
 
SHI you wrote, “When the enemies of Islam come forward waving……We the Muslims jump at the chance to defend him and ask for nothing in return.”  Wake up and smell the coffee. Read Jihad Watch posts to realize that it is LAM literature that scares them. And it is Mullah-Mafia literature on which opponents of Holy Prophet thrive. SHI not only that you’re liar and ignorant of HMGA, you’re miser, and stingy Jew of the ultimate order. You challenged HMGA followers to answer your questions, and promised monitory reward, but now as you have smelled defeat you’re coming with every excuse to run away. For just few hundred British Pounds you’re running away. Shame on you! You stinking Skunk!
 
SHI, here is some information for you. Go and tell it to your friends in Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK: 1-Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad holds belief that Jesus (Eisa AS) is DEAD, and he will NOT return back on earth. Tell them, maybe he is QADIANI MOLE among them. He should be vetted thoroughly.
 
2-Ahmad Karim Shaikh (creator of ahmedi.org) is MUNKAR-E-HADITH (denier of Ahadith). He is BLASPHEMOUS. He used GALIAN (profanities for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS). He is DHARIA (atheist) in his heart. If Ahmad Karim Shaikh denies what I am saying, I am ready to go on any Mullah-Mafia TV in UK and challenge him!!! At least you should ask YOUR BELOVED Ahmad Karim Shaikh to state under oath with invitation of Allah’s wrath and invitation in form of death of his only child if he lies, and deny using GALIAN for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. You will see he will never take oath, because he knows the truth. Hopefully this way you too will come to find the truth.
 
3-Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad and his friends call LAM members as “Qadiani-Lite”. This is just because LAM considers HMGA as divine appointee. Regardless of the fact that UNLIKE  Qadiani People, LAM members hold belief: (i) All Reciters of Kalima-Shahada are Muslims; (ii) For a Muslim it is NOT must to do ba’it (pledge of allegiance) of HMGA; (iii) Ismahu-Ahmad used in Holy Quran is for Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS. By the same corollary I call Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad and his friends at Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK are TALIBAN-LITE. Reason: Chaudhry Akbar and Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK people consider Ahmadis (including LAM members) as Kafir. Chaudhry Akbar and his friends in Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK hate USA. So, please go and tell your friend Chaudhry Akbar and Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK people that they all are TALIBAN-LITE sitting in Western Europe and North America. I am sure Home Land Security and Domestic Intelligence agencies are eavesdropping on them.
 
Your:
 
“The statement you have made is a serious and severe accusation against the team at Secondhand Islam. With all your previous claims of us being too afraid to take oaths with Allah as witness, I request you re-type the above statement but this time invite the wrath of Allah upon the liar. Alleging that we at Secondhand Islam would not hesitate to murder the followers of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani is not a minor issue but it is extremely serious and severe accusation. We will give you the opportunity to issue a public apology to us on your blog for your accusation or if you believe that your statement is correct then re-write it by taking an oath in the name of Allah SWT.”
 
Mine:
 
I say under oath in the name of Allah SWT that I am convinced that if by some accident UK becomes Pakistan in its religious-political-legal setup, SHI and their friends Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK people –whose spokesman Chaudhry Akbar Ahmad ( while sitting in the library of Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK and accompanied by Ahmad Karim Shaikh) on Al-Jazeerah Program ‘The Stream’ declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslim (Kafir)—will show their true colors and their statement on home page “We, at Secondhand Islam, reject all forms of violence that may be directed towards innocent members of the Qadiani Cult. As Muslims we believe that no individual/organisation has the right to take the law into their own hands and harm another creation of Allah” will have NO MEANING to them; and THEY WILL BE MURDERING FOLLOWERS OF HMGA ON THE DROP OF THE HAT. For Mullah-Mafia in Pakistan murdering HMGA-follower is not an issue to which they give a second thought. And now the same Mullah-Mafia from Pakistan has moved to UK, but there because of not a favorable environment for them, they have become “Peaceful People”. They are wolves wearing sheep cloths and waiting for the time when they can show their true nature. One good outcome of 9/11 is that that it has created an environment that checks the terrorist attacks and leashes rabid Mullah-Mafia and stops them from forcing their dogmatic, fanatic and extremist doctrines. This is all exactly according to the prophecy of HMGA about Mullah Mafia, in which he prophesied that ‘Powerful heavy attacks will teach them about truthfulness of HMGA’. As I said, if by some accident UK becomes Pakistan, SHI and Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK people will do to followers of HMGA, which their kind of people did to my immediate family members and family friends, their houses and their businesses. They tried to kill them, and burnt their houses and businesses.  SHI, I hope you’re clear of what I think about SHI team, Khatam-e-Nabuwat Academy, UK and people like your mind sent.
 
Your:
 
“When you don’t even accept those books to be authentic, why should we waste our time with you?”
 
Mine:
 
SHI. Why don’t you say that you being an opponent of HMGA while demanding replies from Ahmadis quote from books NOT authored by HMGA?? Why don’t you say that you and your team at SHI are like Jew Robert Spencer and his team at ‘Jihad Watch’ (who are liars and quote fabricated Ahadith to malign Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS)??
 
Your:
 
“Thanks, we received the same message no less than 12 times. A desperate sign of seeking attention”
 
Mine:
 
SHI, now you show me the courage of posting my reply to your post ‘Response to A Lahore’ in the same thread, if you consider yourself a legitimate child of your parents.
 
Your:
 
“Final words:The Lahoris just like the Qadianis are also non-Muslims (Kafirs). The Lahoris split from the Qadianis in 1914 after the death of the first successor to Mirza Ghulam Qadiani, Hakeem Nooruddin. The Lahori Mirzays state that Mirza Ghulam Qadiani never claimed to be a Prophet and all this was invented by his son, Mirza Basheer Uddin Mahmud. The real reason that the founder of the Lahori Cult (Muhammad Ali) split from the Qadianis was because he believed he should have been the 2nd successor to Mirza instead of the son of Mirza. He realised that the religion of Qadianiat is a great business opportunity and wanted to make an easy living. The easiest excuse given to him by the devil was, ‘he never claimed to be a prophet’.I sometimes wonder who are more ignorant, those who believe Mirza Qadiani to be a Prophet or those who state he never claimed Prophet-hood? For Muslims the statements of our pious elders such as, Shaykh Pir Mehr Ali Shah Gilani r.a (14 April 1859 – May 1937), Maulana Anwar Shah Kashmiri r.a (November 26, 1875 – May 28, 1933), who were both witnesses to the claim of prophet-hood by Mirza Qadiani, are sufficient. The reason for the Lahori Cult sticking its nose into the challenges is because they are also in fear (just like the Qadiani Cult) over how many Qadianis are leaving to accept Islam. The Lahoris yearn for the Qadianis to join them so that they can increase their chanda collection. The Lahoris are angered by the great work that our brothers at thecult.info and our secret sister findings have been doing of late, opening paths for Qadianis to see the reality of Mirza Ghulam Qadiani!”
 
Mine:
 
Accept my challenge and have LIVE debate on Mullah-Mafia TV channel in UK with LAM member. Make your above accusations and LAM member will answer your LIES. Otherwise I have no hesitation in saying YOU SHI AND YOUR SHI TEAM AND YOUR FRIENDS AT KHATAM-E-NABUWAT ACADEMY, UK ARE TERRORIST AND DANGER TO PEACE AND SECURITY OF CITIZENS OF UK. IT IS ONLY MATTER OF TIME WHEN YOU TERRORIST GET CHANCE TO KILL CITIZENS OF UK.
 
Your:
 
“In future we will not be wasting our time with the Lahori Mirzay Cult.”
 
Mine:
 
SHI team is like that DOG who runs away, tucking tail in legs, when he faces danger, but barks when he is inside walls of his house.  You know your hollow barks have no teeth. You know very well you can NOT prove your accusation on HMGA when you have to face LAM member. And your hollow challenge to monetarily reward HMGA followers to answer them is nothing but ABSOLUTE LIE AND FRAUD.
 
You:
 
“May Allah Give Guidance To Those Who Seek It!”
 
Mine:
 
“May Allah Give Guidance to even those who do not seek it like SHI”.
 
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF FAIR MINDED MUSLIMS:
 
In 1980s LAM faced Mullah-Mafia people in South Africa higher courts of law. Judges with temporal powers gave decisions that according Holy Quran, Sunnah and Ahadith of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAWS, even early scholars of Islam, LAM members are Muslims. Judge even punished Mullah-Mafia people by making them pay Financial Expenses of LAM member, his legal team and expert witnesses’ expanses. This decision was also published in Pakistan’s Law book ‘Pakistan Supreme Court Cases, March 1986’. Please check following link:
 
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case/intro.htm
 
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/sa-case2/case.htm

A K Shaikh of ahmedi.org an atheist? Did he himself say so?