Will Muslims in USA (and the West) face similar situation to Ahmadis in Pakistan?
Some forty years ago the government of Pakistan declared that being an Ahmadi was incompatible with being a Muslim, and therefore by law it deprived Ahmadis of being Muslim citizens of the state. This fuelled discrimination against Ahmadis, their ostracism in all fields of life, and their social denigration and exclusion.
At that time, and since then, many Muslims in Pakistan urged Ahmadis to adopt a simple solution to their problems. It was that Ahmadis should renounce being Ahmadis and declare that they are Muslims, and moreover, to prove that this declaration is genuine, they should add that their forefathers had made a mistake in accepting Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (and for further convincing perhaps utter some terms of abuse against their fathers and grandfathers).
I wonder what advice these people would offer to Muslims in Western countries if these countries were to make laws that being a Muslim is incompatible with being a citizen of that country, and Muslims were thus forced to choose between calling themselves Muslims and being (for example) US or French citizens.
Some of the people in Pakistan who gave Ahmadis this advice subsequently themselves migrated to Western countries, or their offspring did.
Would they, under the above circumstances, advise Muslims of Western countries, including their own relatives and in some cases including themselves, to declare that they are not Muslims and that their forefathers made a mistake in embracing Islam?
After all, I recall these people saying to Ahmadis: Why do you want to risk becoming a minority? Join the majority and you will be safe. They always said: It is important to be considered as Muslims under the law of Pakistan and for people to consider you as Muslims. I don't recall them ever saying: It is important to act on the teachings of Islam.
If these are their principles, that right and wrong are not any criteria, and what matters is seeking the approval of society and maintaining a status in it, then what can one expect from them when they are placed in a trying situation?
From Saad:
Actually the VAST majority of the people who left the Ahmadiyya movement were actually from the Lahore Jama'at not the 'Qadian' jama'at. There were dozens villages in Sialkot district where the majority of the population became predominantly Lahori Ahmadis.
But by the 1980s there is a little to no presence of Lahori Ahmadis as they have all either become Sunnis (About 70-80%) or accepted Khilafat (10-20%).
A perfect example of this is my famillies ancestral town BaddoMalhi once a Lahori domineering Lahori center with population of arourd 40,000. In BaddoMalhi Lahoris made up around 70%, 'Qadianis' 15%, and Sunnis also At 15%. In the late 1980s, the population had become 75% Sunni, 20% 'Qadiani' and 5 percent Lahoris.
Recently, according to my grandfather (a former Lahori) who regularly visit BaddoMalhi said that the Ahmadis were around 10% of the population mainly due to very heavy immigration to Lahore and The West (you can find people from BaddoMalhi in virtually any Jama'at Canada, Germany, USA, UK.)
From Zahid Aziz:
Is it better to accept an uncomfortable truth, as I hope we Lahoris do, or to console oneself with unreality and fantasy as Qadianis do? We can accept the truth of loss of membership, although Saad's actual figures cannot be proven, and we can try to deal with that situation. But the Qadianis Jamaat consoles itself with the obvious fantasy and infantile delusion that they are 200 million in number.
From Zahid Aziz:
Some other points arise regarding the comment from Saad.
1. From where do these figures of percentages come? Was there any survey or census revealing these statistics?
2. The Qadiani Jamaat has always been claiming that Lahoris are very few. Did they say before the 1980s that in these areas the Lahoris are much more numerous than us? Are past numbers, never acknowledged at the time, being hugely inflated now to make the present ones look bad?
3. As to his opening statement, that the majority of people who left Ahmadiyyat were Lahoris, supposing this claim is true, a question arises whether this is due to the immense difficulty and coercion that members of the Qadiani Jamaat face in leaving the Qadiani Jamaat?
I have known persons who left the Qadiani Jamaat either to join the Lahore Jamaat, or to be outside the Qadiani Jamaat but still be Ahmadis by belief. Their wives and children were ordered by the Qadiani Jamaat officials to cut off all connections with them. Their adult children didn't invite them (their own fathers) to their weddings and didn't visit them in their old age.
From Saad:
Your are right these are rough estimates due to my probing of my Father, Grandfather and family friends.
If you ever visit BaddoMalhi the vast majority of the Mosques are Lahori Ahmadi mosques but now run by Sunnis including the one my great-great grandfather built. Infact, of the two Muslim high schools the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement established one wad in Lahore the other was in BaddoMalhi.
Either way these figures are rough but the fact of the matter is that the Lahori Ahmadis were in the majority in BaddoMalhi at their zenith.
From Zahid Aziz:
As to schools, even before the declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims, Bhutto's government had nationalised and taken over all non-government schools, and this included the two schools of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Anjuman in Lahore.
Many Lahore Ahmadi Mosques were taken over by force by local Sunnis after 1974. The Muslim Town Lahore mosque where Maulana Muhammad Ali prayed frequently (and where I as a child sometimes prayed up to 1963, and last prayed as an adult in 1976) was taken over by force by a Khatam-i Nubuwwat organization in the 1980s. The Ahmadiyya Anjuman Lahore went to court and obtained a court order many years ago that this mosque rightfully belongs to them, but no official authority can dare serve that notice.
A comparison shouldn't only be made between the pre-1974 and the immediate post-1974 positions of Lahore Ahmadis. It should also be made between the immediate post-1974 position and today. At that time it was widely expected that LAM would finish and die. I personally observed that period. But instead the LAM rose again and is doing work now which was unimaginable in 1974. In fact, standing on the earlier elders' shoulders, LAM members and branches have done things which even at our "zenith" before 1974 had not been done.
To give just one example, the entire Pakistan top-most religious establishment were afraid to face one Lahori from the town of Khushab in the two court cases in Cape Town in the 1980s. Of course he was just one numerically! I was a personal witness to it on the spot.
Then look at our literature produced since 1974. I checked download statistics on ahmadiyya.org and found that every month for more than the past year about 500 copies of the English translation of the Quran are being downloaded.
And these are just a few examples.
From Regis:
Most interesting that what has been happening to Ahmadis within Muslim countries is now happening to Muslims in the West.
I was reading the comments section of an article in an online newspaper today. Bad mistake I know. Anyway, a self-proclaimed 'leftie-progressive' was lamenting that she could no longer extend her tolerance towards the Islam that she had read on several Muslim websites. These websites had justified such things as child marriage, death for apostates and domestic violence.
Yet there is a school of thought that can categorically answer all these allegations and do so with authority, Islamically. Of course, that is the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement. Every day I am more convinced of 'Ahmadiyyat.'
From Mohammed Iqbal:
Zahid Sahib, is the main mosque at your centre in the Muslim Town, is now occupied by Sunnis? Didn't you approach the court again for serving and implementation of their earlier order?
From Zahid Aziz:
Iqbal sahib, Muslim Town is a suburb of Lahore, or at least it was a suburb when first built in the 1930s. There is a local mosque in it, built by Dr Syed Muhammad Husain Shah sahib, a founding member of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Anjuman and companion of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Prominent Lahore Ahmadis, including Maulana Muhammad Ali, built houses in Muslim Town in the 1930s to get away from the congested Ahmadiyya Buildings area in the centre of Lahore. I was born in Muslim Town. This mosque was used by our Jamaat members living in its vicinity.
The LAM main centre and mosque is different, located about 2 miles or less away. Its construction started in 1972, after the decision to move the offices from Ahmadiyya Buildings.
Serving of the court order would lead to a riot. In Pakistan the law of the land is, in practice, subject to the whims of Maulvis. About 15 years ago, a Lahori Ahmadi was appointed as Principal of a Medical College, having been a Professor there for several years. The local Maulvis demanded from the provincial government that the job offer be withdrawn because the appointee was an Ahmadi. So the provincial authorities cancelled his appointment after he served his first day.
Pakistan is like an aircraft whose passengers and crew are held hostage. The crew have to do as they are told.
From Saad:
Your second comment is right and wrong. The Lahoris were probably stronger the Jama'at when the split happened. This is recognized by the mainstream Ahmadiyya literature and have read many times of how Lahoris took preemptive actions to spread their propoganda against Khilafat.
Infact, it had gotten so bad that Chaudhry Assadullah Khan father of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan until a few weeks after Hadhrat Mirza Bashirudin RA became Khalifa and many Qadiani Ahmadi strongholds in Sialkot did not perform immediate bait either such as Ghatalian etc.
Ahmadis do not deny membership left they are a few who left for politics like Manzoor Wattoo and some due to famlial and economic factors. But there is a strong net growth unlike the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement which continues see a net decline.
Now about social disengagement the Quran says:
"2 They take shelter under their oaths, thus turning (men) from Allåh’s way. Surely evil is that which they do. 3 That is because they believed, then disbelieved; thus their hearts are sealed, so they understand not.And when thou seest them, their persons please thee; and if they speak, thou listenest to their speech. They are like pieces of wood, clad with garments. They think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, so beware of them. May Allåh destroy them! How they are turned back!"
Also Zahid sahib, out of curiosity is there any area (villages or towns) where Lahori Ahmadis are still dominant or in majority?
As they are a significant amount of Lahori Ahmadis in Pakistan or are they concentrated in the cities?
From Zahid Aziz:
The Ahmadiyya Anjuman Lahore was founded from scratch, possessing no resources. It had no property, office, missionary, Jamaat or membership. Anyone wanting to join had to decide to do it, because by default all members looked to Qadian as their centre.
The Qadiani Jamaat presents two conflicting stories. One is, as Saad writes, Lahoris were spreading propaganda against the khilafat system before the time of the second Khalifa. The other is that Maulana Muhammad Ali was trying to become Khalifa and only left because he failed to become Khalifa. If the second story is true, how could Lahoris be propagating against the khilafat system when they were trying to make Maulana Muhammad Ali as khalifa?
You have got Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan's father's name wrong. It was Chaudhry Nasrullah Khan.
As to your questions, we are not obsessed with numbers. The Qadiani Jamaat's obsession led it to claim, when the present Khalifa came to office, that it had 200 million members in the world. That is not now claimed, so that is an enormous decrease in the claimed size of the Qadiani Jamaat.
Qadiani Khalifa 2 ran away from Qadian in 1947, Khalifa 4 ran away from Rabwah in 1984, and Khalifa 5 ran away from India in November 2008 after announcing that he would be leading the annual gathering in Qadiani to mark the centenary of the khilafat. Lahore Ahmadi heads stayed in Lahore despite the anti-Ahmadi opposition in Pakistan. They did not abandon the Jamaat members in Pakistan and go to live in the safety of the West. Lahore Ahmadi Heads followed the example of the Holy Prophet Muhammad in their attitude to Jamaat members, as described in the verse:
"Certainly a Messenger has come to you from among yourselves; very painful for him is your falling into distress, most concerned he is for you, to the believers he is compassionate, merciful." (9:128)
From Rashid Jahangiri:
@Saad: People who grow up in freedom, they cannot accept slavery by choice. It is a delusion on part of people who believe Lahori-Ahmadis became Mehmudis [those Qadianis who believe Qadiani Khalifa 2 was Musleh Mahud] and accepted the slavery of Qadiani Khalifa family. Probably you do not know that in life of HMGA, all the major Muslim intellectual families in Punjab, and to a great extent in other parts of India had accepted him as Mamur-min-Allah. If QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad had not done his dirty acts to cut followers of HMGA from rest of Muslim populace in India and especially after creation of Pakistan; followers of HMGA would be making the governments’ one after the other in Pakistan. At time of creation of Pakistan, followers of HMGA were leaders in every field in Pakistani society, e.g. politics, academia, military, bureaucracy, finance, economics, literature, journalism, education, business, religion. What happened to them??? They left Qadiani Jamaat.
Today population of Mehmudies is much less than what it could have been, if intellectual families who initially decided to remain with Qadiani Jamaat had not left. Have you ever thought why among Mehmudis no one qualifies to become Mehmudi Khalifa outside the Khalifa Khandan??? Mehmudis claim to know the real and true Islam, then how come there is NOT A SINGLE Islamic scholar produced among Mehmudis??? Please do NOT give example of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan or Dr. Abdus Salam. HMGA did not come to teach international relations or theoretical physics. So achievements of these individuals are result of their own efforts, just like any Hindu, Christian, and Jew.
From Mohammed Iqbal:
Zahid sahib, If you disregard the issue of Babari masjid which was a highly emotional one, no Muslim house of worship was taken over by the majority community here in India by force and no court order against the majority community was rendered ineffective. The situation still continues even with a Hindu right wing party leading the government at the centre now.
From Zahid Aziz:
I have found an article on Wikipedia on the topic of 'Muslim Town, Lahore', with extensive mention of Dr Syed Muhammad Husain Shah and his philanthropic services for Muslims. See this link.
It doesn't mention that he was a leading Lahore Ahmadi, although it does say that "his famous friends and early settlers" included Maulana Muhammad Ali. And it mentions the mosque that I referred to above: "Dr Muhammad Hussain constructed a mosque in Muslim Town (Aisha Masjid) in memory of his late mother." It also mentions that Allama Iqbal was a friend of his.
Among the early settlers in Muslim Town was Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi who built a house there in the 1930s (now 24 Salik Street). His older daughter, i.e. my late mother, told many anecdotes of the early days in Muslim Town which was then a wilderness. She told many touching stories about Dr Husain Shah's generosity, particularly towards LAM members.
Dr Syed M. Husain Shah was appointed to the Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya Qadian by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad when he created this body in 1906. The Promised Messiah died in the Dr sahib's house in Lahore in May 1908. In 1914 he became one of the founding members of the AAIIL.
At this link I have placed some information about his life.
The last line of the article mentions other early settlers "Sabiha Khanum, Santosh Kumar, Nayyar Sultana Darpan, Agha Taalash, Allauddin, Malika Pukhraj". These were of course famous film stars. Film studios had been established nearby so that outdoor scenes could be shot in the open air. We, as children, knew that these stars lived there. In fact, wife and husband Sabiha and Santosh, famous Pakistani film star couple, lived next door to us. (That's my only connection with show business!)
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Chaudhry Naseer Ahmad Malhi ‘Lord Malhi’.
In July 2015, my course mate from Pakistan Air Force, with his family, visited me in California. My friend’s wife is paternal granddaughter of Chaudhry Naseer Ahmad Malhi. Progeny of Lord Malhi are not openly associated with Lahore Ahmadiyya Jamaat since 1974. Reason is simple. Under directions of Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Qadiani Khalifa 4 Mirza Tahir Ahmad such havoc was created by Mehmudis [Qadianis who believe QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was Musleh Mahud] at Rabwah railway station that Pakistan became an inferno for members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement members. LAM is a volunteer organization. Unlike Mehmudis LAM members believe Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) was THE LAST messenger of Allah (swt), they do NOT call other reciters of Kalima Shahada a Kafir, they offer prayers behind non-LAM imams, they offer funeral prayer of non-LAM Muslims, and they marry their daughters and sons to non-LAM Muslims. So those members of LAM who found inferno too hot to bear decided to mingle with other Sunni Muslims, although they still held beliefs of LAM members. So it is wrong on part of Mehmudi Mr. Saad, whose family hails from Baddomalhi, like ‘Lord Malhi’s’, that former active LAM members joined Qadiani Jamaat and became another subservient Mehmudi to Khalifa family.
Wikipedia entry on ‘Lord Malhi’ says:
Chaudhry Naseer Ahmad Malhi (15 August 1911 – 12 July 1991) was a Pakistani politician, known for playing a pivotal role in the formation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Malhi is recognised as one of the nation’s founding fathers. He was commonly known as "Lord Malhi" for his larger-than-life personality and lavish parties.
Malhi was a leading member of the Muslim League and was at the forefront of the Pakistan Movement. A lifetime member of the Muslim League, he belonged to the gentry of Punjab and served as West Pakistan's Minister for Law, Education and Parliamentary Affairs in 1955.
Malhi received his primary and secondary education at G.H. (Ghulam Haider) Muslim High School, named after his father, who was encouraged by Maulana Muhammad Ali to found this school in 1918, to educate aspiring students. It was run by the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam. The school was noted for offering free tuition and books to economically-disadvantaged pupils. The educational expenses of these students were personally met by Malhi's father.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaudhry_Naseer_Ahmad_Malhi
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Do Pakistani Muslims have right to complain that Americans do not treat Muslims in a fair way when they themselves do not treat reciters of Kalima-Shahada in a fair way?
With mass protests calling for apartheid against Ahmadis in Pakistan, do we have any right to whine about Trump's bigotry?
http://nation.com.pk/blogs/15-Dec-2015/with-mass-protests-calling-for-apartheid-against-ahmadis-in-pakistan-do-we-have-any-right-to-whine
From Saad:
Response to Rashid sahib:
P1
Examples of prominent Ahmadi Scholars:
Maulana Ghulam Rasool Rajiki, Maulana Abul Ata, Maulana Sher Ali Ranjha, Chaudhry Fateh Muhmmad Sial, Maulana Saifur Rahman Malik, Malik Ghulam Fareed Johiya, Mirza Bashir Ahmad, Maulana Dost Muhammad Shahid , Mufti Muhammad Sadiq, Maulana Abdur Rahim Dard, Sheikh Mubarak Ahmad, Maulana Bashir Rafiq, Maulana Jalal-ul-Din Shams, Maulana Abdur Rahman Jatt, Qazi Muhammad Nazeer Lyalpuri, Qazi Muhammad Yousaf……………..The list is endless, when the Lahoris broke away an intelectual revolution occured unde Khalifatul Masih II (ra).
Also Sir Zafarullah Khan (ra) had a studied Arabic extensively in Giverment college Lahore but was pushed by his father to pursue law. He has written numerous thought provoking books on Islam wich can be found here: http://www.alislam.org/library/zafar.html
I have never claimed that all or most Lahoris accepted Khilafat, but it is a fact that 10-20% embraced Khilafat. My grandfather had 3 other siblings who became Sunni while he embraced Khilafat, Tariq Aziz's(my mother's relative) father had 3-4 brothers one embraced Khilafat the rest became Sunni etc.
In some cases the whole families became Ahmadi in Pakistan there was a young Lahori Ahmadi(worked under my father) who with his brothers wanted to accepted Khilifat but his father would stop eating at the mention of Khilafat. When his father passed away, the whole family embraced Khilafat, and in some case the whole family became Sunni.
True freedom can only achieved by submitting to Allah's will. Islam means submission to Allah. I am proud to be a slave or Ghulam of khilafat a institiution created and protected by Allah Almighty for the resurection of Islam to its pristine form. It is you my friend, who does not understand freedom.
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P2
Chaudhry Naseer Ahmad Malhi's father, Chaudhry Ghulam Haider Malhi is an admirable man. He united the 3 of the 4 Malhi Sardars of BaddoMalhi (including great, great grandfather) in the propogation of Ahmadiyyat through various means.
However, his son, Chaudhry Naseer Ahmad Malhi was known as agnostic and opportunist. The wikipedia article has been edited by his descendent who made sure to mention any of his Lahori Ahmadi ties. Infact, I added the Lahori Ahmadi history that you quoted myself on to his wikipedia page.
From Zahid Aziz:
Saad sahib, you write:
"True freedom can only achieved by submitting to Allah's will. Islam means submission to Allah. I am proud to be a slave or Ghulam of khilafat a institiution created and protected by Allah Almighty for the resurection of Islam to its pristine form."
Saying "submitting to Allah's will" and then mentioning being "proud to be a slave of khilafat" is what the Quran calls taking others as gods besides Allah. Your khalifas are gods made by their worshippers, just as idol worshippers made idols by their own hands and then worshipped them. Like idols, these khalifas are puppets who are controlled by a ruling clique behind them. Till 1947, your Jamaat used to say that Lahoris left Qadian and were thrown out of it by Allah and deprived of bahishti maqbara. Then your khalifa had to run out of Qadian himself!
Please also try to understand that you have all left the Qadiani Jamaat because you have given up the beliefs on which your Jamaat was based in 1914. Read chapter 7 (link) of my book The True Succession (entire book at this link) to see how your Jamaat has completely retreated from the three key beliefs in which it differed from the Lahoris. You dropped your beliefs out of fear of Sunni Muslims!
From Rashid Jahangiri:
Prominent Qadianis and Mehmudis
Prominent Qadianis (I call them Qadians as they were members of Qadiani Jamaat)
Mufti Muhammad Sadiq: He held LAHORI-AHMADI beliefs. He is even quoted in an article by Dr. Zahid Aziz on host website (link1, link 2).
Maulana Sher Ali Ranjha: He was father in-law of marhoom Abdul Mannan Omar sahib. He held LAHORI-AHMADI beliefs. He did NOT believe that Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was Musleh Mahud. Ask his maternal grandson Dr. Khalid Omar.
Malik Ghulam Fareed Johiya: He was father in-law of Abdul Mannan Omar sahib daughter. He also did NOT believe that Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was Musleh Mahud. Ask Abdul Mannan Omar sahib son Dr. Khalid Omar.
Prominent Mehmudis (I call them Mehmudi as they held belief that QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was Musleh Mahud)
Abul Ata: He wrote book ‘Saza aur ibtilah mein farq’ (Difference between punishment and tribulation) in response to an article published in Lahori-Ahmadi urdu newspaper Paigham-e-Sulah. This book was published while QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was in earlier years of his illness that took him to his grave. Abul Ata explained criteria, by giving Hazrat Yunas AS example, for tribulations. If you read that book you will be convinced that according to the criteria explained by author Qadiani Khalifa 2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad was PUNISHED by Allah SWT.
Jalal-ud-Din Shams: Read ‘Rawah Ka Rasputin’ for details how his daughters were treated by QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad, in his (JDS) absence. He was in England. On his return QK2 publically scolded him in a function held in his (JDS) honor.
Dost Muhammad Shahid: He is called “Historian of Ahmadiyyat” (Muarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat). He wrote multivolume ‘Tarikh-e-Ahmadiyyat’. An HONEST historian asks ALL the parties to conflict when writing history, in order to write correct and honest history. He wrote volume 19 against Abdul Mannan Omar sahib and his family. This DISHONEST “historian” did NOT even approach Abdul Mannan Omar sahib to find the truth. This will easily tell you of what LOW caliber this person was.
Chaudhry Fateh Muhammad Sial: On his return from England he came to know about immoral character of QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad. He started asking questions. Before he could make his investigation public like Shaikh Abdur Rehman Misri sahib, he died all of a sudden. His son who was living at that time in Karachi. He came to know that his father was poisoned, but he was advised by his “well-wishers” to keep quiet and go back to Karachi. Of course detail is published in number of books like ‘Rabwah Ka Rasputin’. You read it there and confirm it with his paternal grandson, my colleague Psychiatrist.
Sir Zafarullah Khan: He made his independent trust to publish his translation of Holy Quran. He did NOT trust QK2 Mirza Mehmud Ahmad’s MEHMUDI JAMAAT to take responsibility of publishing. Simply because he knew how dishonest Qadiani Khalifa family is. Moreover, in number of books is detail published about his character. Lord Malhi is the source of that information. Once I asked Abdul Mannan Omar sahib about reports of questionable character of Sir Zafarullah Khan. He confirmed what is published in books.
Saad Mian:
If you want to know how Qadiani Khalifa 3 Mirza Nasir Ahmad like his father QK2 CHANGED HIS BELIEFS AND ADOPTED LAHORI-AHMADI BELEIFS in Pakistan National Assembly when grilled by Attorney General Yahya Bakhtiar, read following link. I post the direct quotes and excerpts from the NA Special committee report:
http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2012/12/25/comments-on-mirza-nasir-ahmads-answers-at-the-national-assembly-1974/